Make revenant great again

[arazoth.7290]

Before changing vindicator traits and so on.

 

 

Let's first add some mechanic that is unique to vindicator alliance stance, something the devs tried to incoöperate but didn't thought of for having an alliance between those 2. When you use alliance and swap from red to blue or blue to red: make the first 2 abbilities pressed add some extra effect according to the previous legend archermorus or saint viktor.

 

For example you are supporting your group and want to switch over to red side for some extra support (bc of these 2 additional effects) you press stun break, and bc the extra effect it also now shares stability and not only selfless. Another example you are doing damage in red stance archemorus and want to switch to blue side and you tree song, now it also additional gives as effect to knockback enemies 240 yards where the spell is placed.

 

Also when you use alliance tactics reset your energy to 40 energy for more fluent playstyle switching both legends to full extend

[soul.9651]

Or both elite skills could be like empower abilities for the rest of the utility skills. It would be more unique and usefull from what we have rn anyway(Spear is just so bad that it doesnt have any impact if u press it or not and the urn is just a suicide button.....)

[arazoth.7290]

Imo having elite skills that needs to be something special and add some extra flavour to each stance.

 

An elite skill should add something and not just a stall empowerment. That is more like a trait or in my case what I wrote a small change to the e spec by core design.

 

I agree though on that archemorus spear needs a revamp and should be elite skill also.

 

But the urn isn't made to be hold unendingly, more situationly for a small amount and then you drop so it heals you more back then you lost ( also heals like this more on allies ). The urn isn't that bad, but it would be nice to add some blast to the end drop.

And some combo fields for achemorus and saint viktor, both unique to their playstyle.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

Or both elite skills could be like empower abilities for the rest of the utility skills. It would be more unique and usefull from what we have rn anyway(Spear is just so bad that it doesnt have any impact if u press it or not and the urn is just a suicide button.....)

I don't think the Urn is a suicide button if used well. It's actually really powerful in its own way; if you're below 25% you can use it 2-3 times back to back and you'll be back to 50%+ with 0 Healing Power investment. And it's not even a traditional heal skill; it's just extra. In my experience so far it's best when kiting at the moment or in small encounters with allies and I think it shines the most in PvP/WvW. It's also super useful when escaping situations and in PvE can even be used to tank some hard hitting boss skills

However it definitely "needs more" for what it does.

In PvE I'd like to see it have some sort of access to Alacrity (and/or just Viktor in general) to encourage a healing Vindicator build

In PvP/WvW (and in general) I'd like to see it ditch the generic Regeneration for Resolution and have slightly longer boon duration in general

Edited September 29, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Zaret.1450]

the biggest problem is that both legends have nothing to do with each other, except for lore, what i mean is, archie is full ofensive and vicky is full healing and defensive, i think the best way to change it would be with the trait lines, all the traits are incredibly focused on the evade, but the evade itself is more of a secondary thing in my opinion, at least it should be secondary, but with all the traits being about evade, the... underwellming and playstile defining "only one jump" and all that, its the 2 legends that ended up feeling secondary.

i think the traits should be something like top traits for dps/archie, basicaly lock you on archie and improve your selfish dmg, middle would be maintaining the 2 legends as they are but maybe with some sinergy dont know exactly wich one, and bottom traits focusing on suport, making archie skills do less dmg but spreading its boons to alies  for example, if you replace the first 3 choice traits with that i think vindi could be better, and if they were to realy work hard they could also get gs traits inside, like bottom trait makes gs areas apply barrier to allies (gs2 amd gs5 mainly)

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, zaswer.5246 said:

the biggest problem is that both legends have nothing to do with each other, except for lore, what i mean is, archie is full ofensive and vicky is full healing and defensive, i think the best way to change it would be with the trait lines, all the traits are incredibly focused on the evade, but the evade itself is more of a secondary thing in my opinion, at least it should be secondary, but with all the traits being about evade, the... underwellming and playstile defining "only one jump" and all that, its the 2 legends that ended up feeling secondary.

i think the traits should be something like top traits for dps/archie, basicaly lock you on archie and improve your selfish dmg, middle would be maintaining the 2 legends as they are but maybe with some sinergy dont know exactly wich one, and bottom traits focusing on suport, making archie skills do less dmg but spreading its boons to alies  for example, if you replace the first 3 choice traits with that i think vindi could be better, and if they were to realy work hard they could also get gs traits inside, like bottom trait makes gs areas apply barrier to allies (gs2 amd gs5 mainly)

What you suggest is to solve it in the traits, but here is the problem: only traits shouldn't solve how mechanic wise a new elite spec plays or completely changes it.

 

Like I mentioned in my first post how to solve this problem for vindicator, is to add these effects in vindicator core mechanic wise and further traits can add onto it further to make small changes but keep it like that for fluent playstyle and having archie and vicky something to do with each other as an alliance

[draxynnic.3719]

This feels less like 'make revenant great again' and more like 'improve vindicator' (there's no 'great again' for vindicator because apart from a brief period of dominance in competitive it never was).

The dodge mechanic is changing next week, so there's that to look forward to at least.

Regarding the contrast in purpose between the two parts of alliance stance: this is basically the elementalist attunement problem over again, where in theory you swap attunement to change role to whatever is needed at the time, while in practice your role is determined by gear and unless you're in some variety of hybrid gear (celestial or some power/precision/ferocity/healing set) you're likely to just ignore one of the two. And vindicator support builds are bad in PvE because they don't offer alacrity or quickness.

What they really need to do is decide what function vindicator is actually supposed to perform. If it's supposed to be power DPS, Vicky is almost redundant (like a condi firebrand pulling tome 2 - it might help sometimes if the healers aren't quite keeping up with the damage, but you don't really want to have to do it). If it's supposed to be support, then in PvE it needs one of the offensive boons. Maybe Archemorus should have been offensive support, Viktor defensive support, and Herald should have had its PvE damage tuned up rather than being made a quickness supplier.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

51 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

What they really need to do is decide what function vindicator is actually supposed to perform. If it's supposed to be power DPS, Vicky is almost redundant (like a condi firebrand pulling tome 2 - it might help sometimes if the healers aren't quite keeping up with the damage, but you don't really want to have to do it). If it's supposed to be support, then in PvE it needs one of the offensive boons. Maybe Archemorus should have been offensive support, Viktor defensive support, and Herald should have had its PvE damage tuned up rather than being made a quickness supplier.

They just need to lean into DPS Vindicator being good and then probably give Viktor Alac through a trait or something, make it scale off Healing Power or something in addition to boon duration (therefore promoting HealAlac builds as opposed to hybrid since we already have Ren for that, they could make it "X healing power = X base duration Alacrity, really forcing you to spec into healing). I think Vindicator should be top Power DPS for Rev but also have a Healalac or Healquick as their support option. Otherwise Viktor will always be a WvW/PvP aspect of the spec and a meme in PvE.

Herald was always supposed to (according to Anet a few years ago) be a Defensive support, so I don't see that as being the preferable power dps option. And I think it would be hard to buff Herald into a good power dps anyway since it doesn't really have much burst damage so it kind of falls into that "just does good sustain damage" category and at that point you might as well run a condi spec. Vindicator (and even old power Ren) have always been better for burst which is really what power dps need anyway, so Vindi makes more sense to be "Rev's best power dps."

These changes could be done fairly easily through changes to Urn in Viktor, a few minor Trait changes, and a few Archemorus damage buffs

Edited September 30, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Angesombre.4630]

I'd like to see the archetype changed, like removing the "Balance in Discord" trait and applying it directly to the "Alliance Tactics" skill. Instead of "Balance in Discord" only the trait "Song of Arboreum".

There is the possibility to change the intermediate "Master" traits after the change of these 2 changes.

[Zaret.1450]

17 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

What you suggest is to solve it in the traits, but here is the problem: only traits shouldn't solve how mechanic wise a new elite spec plays or completely changes it.

 

Like I mentioned in my first post how to solve this problem for vindicator, is to add these effects in vindicator core mechanic wise and further traits can add onto it further to make small changes but keep it like that for fluent playstyle and having archie and vicky something to do with each other as an alliance

the problem is arch is pure dps, and vick is pure heal, and theres no way for both of them to have sinergy as they work now, the dps one is pure selfish and dmg, and not even that well done, while the healer one is just big heals barriers and cleanses.

If you made a sinergy like, use spear then change and use a vicky charged skill for extra effect, first youd need to make aliance swap replenish energy, then youd see that youre still doing something useless because needing to use one to charge the other just makes you loose time, makes your work more complex and doesnt make any sense, why would i need to use a hiper agressive hothead attack to then change and heal more? or the contrary, use your blue healing good will to charge a spear and stab where the sun never shines... i think it doesnt make sense, but sacrificing traits that, right now, dont make much sense or can be improved makes it easier.

Vindi is kinda like, youre free to choose, one, the other or both, thats how the traits work more or less, so changing the traits so, for example the agressive ones make vicky only heal you and give you defensive boons, for a full self centered agressive build, and the healing ones make arche give agresive bonus around sacrificing its dmg, or maybe making fire fields, fire auras etc, you have one main legend and the other just suports the main one, and the last slot can make what you want a kinda sinergy where both do their jobs together, maybe you get less healing and dmg than focusing on one, but both give boons, and diferent effects without getting in the way.

[Shao.7236]

Bit misleading of a post. Revenant needs to be great again with several bug fixes rather than buffs right now.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Lord.6042]

Vindicator needs all of its stun break to be instant. If there is a cast time on a stun break that does damage then it has bad interaction with things such as Shocking that cancels the stunbreak. A class shouldn't be punished for using it stun break to live longer. Fix the Red stances stun break please. Don't nerf down the grandmaster traits to much such as the 15%+ damage it is good and if you nerf that then it will be bad and people will just run the one to increase duration on boons the same thing happen with draconic echo on herald there is no other good grandmaster trait. just nerf the coefficants on the damage currently in does around 1,800 damage so just bring it down by half since we are getting a second dodge. As well as the elite on blue stance in allaince i understand it is a strong ability but have the ability to not be able to heal is hard enough already get rid of the damage you do to yourself already not healing is strong enough debuff to not have it up all the time or reduce the cast time on the elite because 1 second is to long to be able to get any real use out of it. You just get cc'd so you have to swap legends just to be able to get out of it. The heals take way to long to cast after nerfing the fact you heal more for allies near you or enemies being hit it is not good to have a 1 1/2 seconds cast time on a heal that only heals for 5k. You have to stack stability or use quickness just to use you heal skill which is over kill since the heal isn't even that good. Buff the healing on it or reduced the cast time. Please rework the F2 increased dodge maybe make it into a leap or something similar to the one herald uses becauses having it as it is will be useless espically since things like sigil of energy exist. Rework the middle traits in vindicator again since we have two dodges we don't need all that to dodge anymore just slap on sigil of energy and you good otherwise we just have perma dodge theif all over again. 

[Shao.7236]

On 9/30/2022 at 4:52 PM, Lord.6042 said:

Vindicator needs all of its stun break to be instant. If there is a cast time on a stun break that does damage then it has bad interaction with things such as Shocking that cancels the stunbreak. A class shouldn't be punished for using it stun break to live longer. Fix the Red stances stun break please. Don't nerf down the grandmaster traits to much such as the 15%+ damage it is good and if you nerf that then it will be bad and people will just run the one to increase duration on boons the same thing happen with draconic echo on herald there is no other good grandmaster trait. just nerf the coefficants on the damage currently in does around 1,800 damage so just bring it down by half since we are getting a second dodge. As well as the elite on blue stance in allaince i understand it is a strong ability but have the ability to not be able to heal is hard enough already get rid of the damage you do to yourself already not healing is strong enough debuff to not have it up all the time or reduce the cast time on the elite because 1 second is to long to be able to get any real use out of it. You just get cc'd so you have to swap legends just to be able to get out of it. The heals take way to long to cast after nerfing the fact you heal more for allies near you or enemies being hit it is not good to have a 1 1/2 seconds cast time on a heal that only heals for 5k. You have to stack stability or use quickness just to use you heal skill which is over kill since the heal isn't even that good. Buff the healing on it or reduced the cast time. Please rework the F2 increased dodge maybe make it into a leap or something similar to the one herald uses becauses having it as it is will be useless espically since things like sigil of energy exist. Rework the middle traits in vindicator again since we have two dodges we don't need all that to dodge anymore just slap on sigil of energy and you good otherwise we just have perma dodge theif all over again. 

Revenants can use stunbreaks way more often than any other professions which is why most have cast times, Reaver's Rage is extra good and doesn't need to be instant. If anything the damage is an excess due to the design direction.

[Angesombre.4630]

12 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Revenants can use stunbreaks way more often than any other professions which is why most have cast times, Reaver's Rage is extra good and doesn't need to be instant. If anything the damage is an excess due to the design direction.

Yes but compared to the other classes they can choose several stunbreaks while the revenant has only one per legend.

[Shao.7236]

16 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Yes but compared to the other classes they can choose several stunbreaks while the revenant has only one per legend.

That's why they're in the technical benefits better than most. Most Revenant skills are bloated to compensate for that fact but just enough so that it's not game breaking.

Being able to chose is an indifferent design if you still have the same baseline benefits.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Shao.7236

[AintGold.5128]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:55 PM, soul.9651 said:

Or both elite skills could be like empower abilities for the rest of the utility skills. It would be more unique and usefull from what we have rn anyway(Spear is just so bad that it doesnt have any impact if u press it or not and the urn is just a suicide button.....)

Quick idea created just on the desk:

For red skills

- Empowered heal - Archemorus is channeling heal instead of you and create fire field when casting heal. healing skill stays in the place where you casted this

- Empowered nomad advance - Archemorus is dashing instead of you and range increased to 800

- Empowered scavenger burst - Archemorus jumping from the air on targeted area (something like vindi dodge) and add blast combo finisher

- Empowered reaver rage - Archemorus angrily screams stunning enemies for 1 sec

- Spear of Archemorus renamed to Archemorus' aid - now its an upkeep ability and every makes every skill empowered when used during this skill and increases the cd of every skill by 2 sec

 

For blue, I dunno, lack of ideas

Edited October 3, 2022 by AintGold.5128