Lets discuss why...

[KryTiKaL.3125]

Why Warrior feels like it doesn't measure up in competitive to these other classes that are, essentially, just better Warriors without actually being Warrior. We have Willbender, Vindicator, Herald, Scrapper, Holosmith, Soulbeast, Untamed and even Catalyst. Warrior is just in this weird position where if it wants to measure up to these other classes it effectively needs to get access to the same tools and utilities (not literally the same Utility skills) as these other classes and yet it doesn't really have these things.

There was a time in the past when Warrior was holding its own, but it was doing so in a particularly unhealthy way with the passive procs of Last Stand and Defy Pain. This gave it consistent uptime on damage mitigation both from Lesser Endure Pain and Lesser Balanced stance, while also giving it consistent Stability, by allowing it to essentially double up on these skills and having passively activated stunbreak with both of them. Berserker Stance was also actually useful in countering Conditions at the time as well. Was this the best way to achieve that? No. So it did need to be changed, or nerfed, however since this happened Warrior didn't really get anything to compensate for this loss. Correction, it did. It got ammo on its Shout skills which only lead down another path of an unhealthy way of achieving moderate "relevancy" in competitive modes.

Warrior was relegated to needing to run Shouts because Shouts were the only way they could even remotely achieve an adequate enough level of sustain, stunbreak, and counter to conditions. This turned into Healbreaker basically being the only relevant build for a period of time before Bladesworn released with EoD. Which this is where we saw Shout healing exacerbated, contributing to the self healing bloat that Bladesworn has had up until this last Oct 4th Balance Update. Granted Shouts were not its chief, largest source of healing; that comes from Combat Stimulant, but it could also achieve sustainable Stability...however yet again this was executed in an unhealthy way in terms of gameplay.

The trend I'm noticing here is that since the initial changes to Last Stand and Defy Pain getting their notorious 300 sec ICD (alongside traits of similar natures on other classes), Warrior has not been kept up with in the boon creep that has been consistently stuck to with every single other class. The only exception to this is Thief, however Thief still remains at the absolute top of the food chain when it comes to "avoidance" gameplay; teleports, blinds, stealth. They flash step more than a character from Bleach (I hate that I know the name of this still). However, the criticism here isn't with Thief, its with the fact that these other classes had reliable boon generation already and were not so reliant on what had arguably been just unhealthy passive gameplay in the form of those traits that Warrior lost.

Warrior as well tends to be stuck with Discipline as a near mandatory traitline to pick up for competitive gameplay. Have there been builds that have not used this in the past? Absolutely. However they also had access to those passive procs from Last Stand and Defy Pain, and in the case of one Spellbreaker build I can recall the bloated sustain that Magebane Tether offered with MMR and the easy Adrenal Health procs from Full Counter. Could just walk into an AoE, trigger FC, get Adrenal Health and also just tag someone, anyone, with Magebane Tether and just regenerate health. It didn't need the 5 second weapon swap or any other utility in Discipline...it had that. It was rightfully nerfed.

This is another trend I've noticed; almost every time Warrior has been "relevant" in competitive modes it has been due, arguably in large part, to an unhealthy mechanic or interaction it has present that inevitably gets nerfed and the class falls deep into obscurity until an expansion drops and it gets some new unhealthy gimmick to propel it forwards yet again only to have it likely repeat the pattern.

Maybe ANet, specifically CMC, is fully aware of this...maybe not, but clearly more needs to be done to end this repeating cycle of events with this class. The last balance update was genuinely a good indication of a better direction being taken, however I truly hope that future updates continue this trend and Warrior continues to see a larger selection of changes with each subsequent balance patch going forward.

I'm curious to see others thoughts as to the perspective I just laid out here. As the title says "discuss" so I'm very curious to see others perspectives. Do you agree? Disagree? Maybe someone can provide additional insight or anecdotes?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

PVE

General lack of playstyles and roles.

Its Dps and maybe Quickness if you feel fancy today. And which one of the 3 Elite Spec options is best at any moment is just which one isnt nerfed the most.

Quickness being on 2 Traitlines means that you are not very flexable.                            

 Not even Fun Builds exit much. Why is Rifle still so bad?

All it boils down too is:

Core War for Perma Group Quickness.

Condi Zerker for Dps.

Spellbreaker for Singleplayer Openworld.

WHY DOES WARRIOR HAVE THREE DPS ELITES AGAIN FOR PVE!? WHERE IS THE VARIETY!?

 

WvW

Simple. Does your Group/Squad Setup allow melee pushes?

Yes? You can do things. Not better then others but you can atleast press buttons that do something.

No? You are complete worthless. What are you gonna do? Sit at 1200 Range waiting for something to happen all night?

Sadly, it more often the later then the former.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[thaniretouni.4762]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

PVE

General lack of playstyles and roles.

Its Dps and maybe Quickness if you feel fancy today. And which one on the 3 Elite Spec options is best at any moment is just which one isnt nerfed the most.

Quickness being on 2 Traitlines means that you are not very flexable.                            

 Not even Fun Builds exit much. Why is Rifle still so bad?

All it boils down too is:

Core War for Perma Group Quickness.

Condi Zerker for Dps.

Spellbreaker for Singleplayer Openworld.

WHY DOES WARRIOR HAVE THREE DPS ELITES AGAIN FOR PVE!? WHERE IS THE VARIETY!?

 

WvW

Simple. Does your Group/Squad Setup allow melee pushes?

Yes? You can do things. Not better then others but you can atleast press buttons that do something.

No? You are complete worthless. What are you gonna do? Sit at 1200 Range waiting for something to happen all night?

Sadly, it more often the later then the former.

 

 

I disagree with ur take on the WvW side. You can be one of the front lines that also deals some cc and at some point this will help ur team push. Ofc, for that to be good, coz now it's barely ok, we need some dmg to our cc back (maybe 3k on crits on marauder + durability build )to at least do something too not just cc. We also need our bursts to hit a bit harder since they have adrenaline and cd restriction and are all so easy to read and avoid. With the defence line being arguably better now, despite my early thoughts on being bad coz I loved the old rousing resilience, we only need dmg really. I can go into a group of 20+ deal some dmg, cc a bit and go back. Rinse and repeat. But that strategy could use more dmg to increase our impact.

Also some of our weapons need update. Like mage main hand, sword main and offhand too. Rifle for sure. The rest are ok.

 

Also, our shout + strip boon is ok i believe. Could use some help still but nothing super major. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

27 minutes ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

I disagree with ur take on the WvW side. You can be one of the front lines that also deals some cc and at some point this will help ur team push. Ofc, for that to be good, coz now it's barely ok, we need some dmg to our cc back (maybe 3k on crits on marauder + durability build )to at least do something too not just cc. We also need our bursts to hit a bit harder since they have adrenaline and cd restriction and are all so easy to read and avoid. With the defence line being arguably better now, despite my early thoughts on being bad coz I loved the old rousing resilience, we only need dmg really. I can go into a group of 20+ deal some dmg, cc a bit and go back. Rinse and repeat. But that strategy could use more dmg to increase our impact.

Also some of our weapons need update. Like mage main hand, sword main and offhand too. Rifle for sure. The rest are ok.

 

Also, our shout + strip boon is ok i believe. Could use some help still but nothing super major. 

What you discribed is called overextending and will be punished.

You run into the enemy zerg who has still all its CDS up. You will be deleted.

I mean, why not take the free Loot back that just asked for it?

I should also add that WvW for me is 50v50 or higher.

 

Believe me. I have seen that playstyle from Warriors alot. And its cute AF. He thinks he is doing anything swinging his Hammer around. Cool im CCd far away from an enemy that could kill me. I have like 20+ support players next to me and 30 dps that just smell the lootbag.

 

 

 

 

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Whatchu mean you hate you know the name 😔

Bleach coming back in 3 days hype!

As for warrior, they will never be able to do something about it...Time to play some weaver rune last stand stance warrior hoho!

[thaniretouni.4762]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

What you discribed is called overextending and will be punished.

You run into the enemy zerg who has still all its CDS up. You will be deleted.

I mean, why not take the free Loot back that just asked for it?

I should also add that WvW for me is 50v50 or higher.

 

Believe me. I have seen that playstyle from Warriors alot. And its cute AF. He thinks he is doing anything swinging his Hammer around. Cool im CCd far away from an enemy that could kill me. I have like 20+ support players next to me and 30 dps that just smell the lootbag.

 

 

 

 

 

I said front line, never said u go in alone and noone folows up either. Also, i never said i dont face 50v50, but depends on the time u go. If all you face is 50v50 then u dont play this style obviously. Finally, I never said i use hammer 🙂 I said dmg, hammer does 0 dmg 😄 That is why i suggested our cc skills to deal 3k crits on dmg builds at least, so that you can follow that avenue 🙂 You make too many assumptions mate. Get your facts straight. Warrior needs a ton of supports yes. Is it good atm? Not exactly, at least not for BIG zergs. Is it playable ? Yes, it is. So not everything is doom and gloom like you make it to be. That's all i am saying.

[Nukk.3492]

OP is correct. Warrior utility skills just haven't kept up with the boon creep and the increase in ground based AoE, blind spam, stealth, teleporting etc. that the elite specs have introduced. Anet know this is a problem for melee classes and that's why the new elite melee specs of other classes are basically assassins being able to teleport in to engage, burst and teleport out - or at least have the relevant boons (such as stability and protection) available to get in and out.

With regards to WvW, just look around at the classes you see in squads. I see guardians, engineers, necros and eles. Not much else. Maybe some ranger classes but certainly the least represented class in these groups is by far the warrior. This is because we provide the least value. I would love to see actual numbers from Anet on this as I am going purely on observation here. I am sure that many here will support this observation however.

[thaniretouni.4762]

17 minutes ago, Nukk.3492 said:

OP is correct. Warrior utility skills just haven't kept up with the boon creep and the increase in ground based AoE, blind spam, stealth, teleporting etc. that the elite specs have introduced. Anet know this is a problem for melee classes and that's why the new elite melee specs of other classes are basically assassins being able to teleport in to engage, burst and teleport out - or at least have the relevant boons (such as stability and protection) available to get in and out.

With regards to WvW, just look around at the classes you see in squads. I see guardians, engineers, necros and eles. Not much else. Maybe some ranger classes but certainly the least represented class in these groups is by far the warrior. This is because we provide the least value. I would love to see actual numbers from Anet on this as I am going purely on observation here. I am sure that many here will support this observation however.

This is true. For zerg purposes we are the minority. kitten even while roaming is rare to see a warrior, let alone a good one. For zerging we need a ton of things but still we are better than thieves now that specter is doomed and staff was gutted in 2020. Anyway, for roaming and small gvg (like 8-10 v 8-10) we are doing better but need our dmg back and then we will be more than ok. At least the builds i am playing are doing well in these situations but lack a bit of burst. Not trying to say warrior is fine. But thematically we cannot teleport or zap from hundreds of range. Warrior is all about tankiness, dmg and some minor support imo. Make a strong tank espec (talking about absorbing and reflecting dmg, increased tons of toughness for a period of time on utility, heavy cc and pulls, extra defence bar that gives us 20k extra hp thats regenarates while in combat) next expansion, give us some dmg now in all the cc skills and a bit more dmg on our bursts and warrior will have a place everywhere.

[draxynnic.3719]

I find myself largely in agreement with the OP. The OP has gone into a lot more detail with what's going on than I could, although I would note that the various greatsword builds have managed to continue being relevant, mostly through being about as reliant on well-timed evade frames as thief builds. However, the greatsword playstyle is not one I particularly enjoy, and I'm trying to get the champion title for warrior, so what I've been doing is picking up pretty much every other one of those builds that the OP mentions. Macebow berserker, back in the day, relied a lot on those passive trait activations for self-sustain. Healbreaker... probably the least problematic since it's basically support guardian in warrior form, but it wasn't allowed to be the primary support build for long before it was nerfed harshly. Bladesworn, until the patch - because the broken stuff made up for how unsuitable the bladesworn mechanic is for PvP.

I think utility is a large part of the problem. Banners aren't exactly a strong option in PvP apart from the elite. Signets don't really do a lot either. Spellbreaker utilities, despite being a 'PvP spec', aren't useful. Shake it Off is virtually mandatory to have any real anti-condition at all, but it places your stunbreak and your condition removal in one basket. So you do tend to keep seeing the same skills over and over again - shouts, Bull's Charge for the combined gapcloser, CC, and evade, sometimes a stance for even more sustain, and generally speaking all of the utilities are related to sustain, either directly or through trait interactions, because warrior doesn't get a lot of sustain through weapons. So I'm not sure how much of the problem is that warrior just simply doesn't have good utilities, and how much of it is that its utilities are pinned to survival because it lacks good defensive weapons outside of shield, but I think it is fair to say that warrior just doesn't have as many tricks to play as other professions do and those it does have, there probably is something that another profession does better. It's best trick was probably abundant CC, but that became a double edged sword (or, maybe more accurately, a dull-edged sword) with the CC patch.

If I could get ArenaNet to do one thing, it would probably be to substantially rework the spellbreaker utilities, possibly from the ground up. Spellbreaker is essentially the "I learned enough magic to be able to beat magic-users" warrior - the utilities would be an opportunity to represent this beyond blocking and boonstripping. The elite is quite likely the only one people would actually miss if it was rebuilt from the ground up, so reworking spellbreaker utilities should be an opportunity for the team to sit down and think about what would really be useful for fighting necromancers, mesmers, elementalists, and guardians, and give them options that would do that. And since spellbreaker has a bit of magic thematically, this is where they have the opportunity to come up with things that go outside the bounds of what a relatively mundane profession like warrior is normally capable of. Maybe we could have Magebane Tether as an actual skill, and the trait can then become the 'lesser' version of that skill.

[Downstate.4697]

There is a lot that goes into why warrior isnt great, but the tldr version is the game changed faster than the warrior changed. Passive heals dont really cut it in environments where everyone runs berserker amulet and bursts you down. Warriors need better means to mitigate damage or heal from it more frequently. The stances really arent strong enough for the cooldowns they have. Most of their utilities are bad tbh. Some of their weapons need improvments as well such as oh mace, oh sword, oh dagger, mh mace.

[oscuro.9720]

I think the answer to your question is to look at the period in which Warrior was meta without relying on a broken mechanic. This was immediately prior to the 2020 patch when Strength Dagger spell was an A tier side model (not S tier as spell had formerly been, but still viable enough to solo climb to plat3 in the right hands). 
 

Why was it viable? It obviously had the tools Warrior has; hard CC, some evade frames, reasonable endurance regeneration, but it’s key feature was it’s passive sustain. If you tethered someone, you were healing for 300+ a tick plus endurance regen, plus whatever other might you were generating. It forced people to maintain pressure otherwise your passive heal would reset you, and them pressuring meant you had more possibility to generate sustain (via might generation). This meant warrior didn’t have to gap close as frequently (one of the main problems for Warrior post 2020), because excessive kiting was problematic for the enemy too.

After the 2020 patch, the passive healing via offensive engagement was no longer there. Players were no longer penalized for consistently kiting Warrior, and could whittle you down (or chunk you down) from range and let their melee cooldowns fully reset while the warrior has to use all of their cooldowns to gap close. This isn’t to say spell was completely hapless, it could punch up a weight class in the right hands by virtue of the high skill scaling aspect of Full Counter, but was pretty much hard locked out of the upper tiers if skill levels were equalized. 
 

So what does Warrior need? First is some passive, trait based sustain that is generated by engagement (we don’t want gimmicky sustain based on boon uptime like other classes, since that isn’t predicated on anything but pressing a button, which is lame). Based on my experiences so far, the defense line rework may have properly provided this, though it’s still too early to confidently say, I need to fight against a more diverse set of classes. However, defense spell definitely seems to be an improvement over strength dagger prior to the patch, and may put spell in a decent spot.
 

Second is some damage. I don’t think this is far off. I’ve seen some people saying Warrior needs 50% more damage, which is just ridiculous. But there are specific places they can add more. Just changing 100blades cast time alone can make a huge difference. Making a 2 second stun reliably remove at-least half a persons health is a significant change. 

 

Beyond those two, it’s hard to look at warrior’s kit and specifically say what is needed. It would be easier to identify bigger issues when Warrior actually has the tools to force an engagement.

 

Also defense blade seems to be pretty decent as well. Lower floor with a more gentle skill curve compared to spell, and more team fight potential. 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

3 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I think the answer to your question is to look at the period in which Warrior was meta without relying on a broken mechanic. This was immediately prior to the 2020 patch when Strength Dagger spell was an A tier side model (not S tier as spell had formerly been, but still viable enough to solo climb to plat3 in the right hands). 
 

Why was it viable? It obviously had the tools Warrior has; hard CC, some evade frames, reasonable endurance regeneration, but it’s key feature was it’s passive sustain. If you tethered someone, you were healing for 300+ a tick plus endurance regen, plus whatever other might you were generating. It forced people to maintain pressure otherwise your passive heal would reset you, and them pressuring meant you had more possibility to generate sustain (via might generation). This meant warrior didn’t have to gap close as frequently (one of the main problems for Warrior post 2020), because excessive kiting was problematic for the enemy too.

After the 2020 patch, the passive healing via offensive engagement was no longer there. Players were no longer penalized for consistently kiting Warrior, and could whittle you down (or chunk you down) from range and let their melee cooldowns fully reset while the warrior has to use all of their cooldowns to gap close. This isn’t to say spell was completely hapless, it could punch up a weight class in the right hands by virtue of the high skill scaling aspect of Full Counter, but was pretty much hard locked out of the upper tiers if skill levels were equalized. 
 

So what does Warrior need? First is some passive, trait based sustain that is generated by engagement (we don’t want gimmicky sustain based on boon uptime like other classes, since that isn’t predicated on anything but pressing a button, which is lame). Based on my experiences so far, the defense line rework may have properly provided this, though it’s still too early to confidently say, I need to fight against a more diverse set of classes. However, defense spell definitely seems to be an improvement over strength dagger prior to the patch, and may put spell in a decent spot.
 

Second is some damage. I don’t think this is far off. I’ve seen some people saying Warrior needs 50% more damage, which is just ridiculous. But there are specific places they can add more. Just changing 100blades cast time alone can make a huge difference. Making a 2 second stun reliably remove at-least half a persons health is a significant change. 

 

Beyond those two, it’s hard to look at warrior’s kit and specifically say what is needed. It would be easier to identify bigger issues when Warrior actually has the tools to force an engagement.

 

Also defense blade seems to be pretty decent as well. Lower floor with a more gentle skill curve compared to spell, and more team fight potential. 

You are right, actually. Str Dagger Spellbreaker did have adequate sustain due to MMR healing for 133 per Might. It allowed for Disc/Str/Spell to be run without needing a specifically sustain/defense oriented traitline active. Or could be run with Tactics for further sustain off Shouts and Might.

I'd agree that was probably one of the very brief moments of Warrior not relying on an arguably unhealthy gimmick to secure some semblance of relevancy.

 

So I think we have to ask ourselves, and ANet, why, or how, they might be able to find their way back to something similar to the state Spellbreaker had been in but be able to enable that for not just Spellbreaker, but Berserker and Core Warrior as well. Also how might it be done so as to not egregiously bloat Bladesworn yet again.

My first thoughts are for them to do some heavy work on the Utility skills of Spellbreaker, Berserker and Core in general but also Berserker and Spellbreaker need to have some of their power and utility given to (and back) to them in their own individual traitlines. Maybe bump Magebane Tether back up to 2 Might per tick, bump MMR back up in regards to its healing per Might. If they want to reign in Tactics in that particular scenario then they need to shift Tactics to less selfish, more team support which I think is a generally desired approach from most Warriors. Tactics, truthfully, probably needs to become the traitline that offers group healing, boon support and group utility. They need to move Doubled Standards into Tactics. End of discussion (probably swap Doubled Standards with Leg Specialist). They also should probably make Mending Might heal you for a lesser amount, but heal allies for a larger amount when applying Might to them.

These are just thoughts that float around in my head, they could work as solutions or they might not. What I do know for sure is that any time I have fought any of those classes I listed in my original post I could not help but think "Must be nice being able to play a Warrior". I've said this before but I genuinely believe that GW2 is the only MMORPG I have ever played that has done the Warrior class so, so poorly in regards to balance and presence and I have been playing numerous MMORPGs for near 18 years now. Even compared to its own predecessor; GW1 Warrior is a better Warrior than GW2 Warrior. That isn't to say balance is perfect on any of those games, it isn't, but Warrior tends to be the most straight forward, simple class and they somehow found a way to make it one of the least effective classes in their competitive modes when it isn't being held up by some unhealthy mechanic.

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

You are right, actually. Str Dagger Spellbreaker did have adequate sustain due to MMR healing for 133 per Might. It allowed for Disc/Str/Spell to be run without needing a specifically sustain/defense oriented traitline active. Or could be run with Tactics for further sustain off Shouts and Might.

I'd agree that was probably one of the very brief moments of Warrior not relying on an arguably unhealthy gimmick to secure some semblance of relevancy.

 

So I think we have to ask ourselves, and ANet, why, or how, they might be able to find their way back to something similar to the state Spellbreaker had been in but be able to enable that for not just Spellbreaker, but Berserker and Core Warrior as well. Also how might it be done so as to not egregiously bloat Bladesworn yet again.

My first thoughts are for them to do some heavy work on the Utility skills of Spellbreaker, Berserker and Core in general but also Berserker and Spellbreaker need to have some of their power and utility given to (and back) to them in their own individual traitlines. Maybe bump Magebane Tether back up to 2 Might per tick, bump MMR back up in regards to its healing per Might. If they want to reign in Tactics in that particular scenario then they need to shift Tactics to less selfish, more team support which I think is a generally desired approach from most Warriors. Tactics, truthfully, probably needs to become the traitline that offers group healing, boon support and group utility. They need to move Doubled Standards into Tactics. End of discussion (probably swap Doubled Standards with Leg Specialist). They also should probably make Mending Might heal you for a lesser amount, but heal allies for a larger amount when applying Might to them.

These are just thoughts that float around in my head, they could work as solutions or they might not. What I do know for sure is that any time I have fought any of those classes I listed in my original post I could not help but think "Must be nice being able to play a Warrior". I've said this before but I genuinely believe that GW2 is the only MMORPG I have ever played that has done the Warrior class so, so poorly in regards to balance and presence and I have been playing numerous MMORPGs for near 18 years now. Even compared to its own predecessor; GW1 Warrior is a better Warrior than GW2 Warrior. That isn't to say balance is perfect on any of those games, it isn't, but Warrior tends to be the most straight forward, simple class and they somehow found a way to make it one of the least effective classes in their competitive modes when it isn't being held up by some unhealthy mechanic.

I honestly don’t think spell is far off at all. I think some small tweaks to just the spellbreaker line is sufficient to put it in a very strong position (and 2 might on MBT is one of those changes). It would also likely have multiple viable builds with just a few tweaks, given how balanced its mechanic is.

 

As for core/berserker, I’m struggling to articulate my thoughts on the two. I will probably make some posts at a later date that properly expand upon the nebulous thoughts that I can’t nail down presently. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[KryTiKaL.3125]

On 10/7/2022 at 3:00 PM, FrownyClown.8402 said:

There is a lot that goes into why warrior isnt great, but the tldr version is the game changed faster than the warrior changed. Passive heals dont really cut it in environments where everyone runs berserker amulet and bursts you down. Warriors need better means to mitigate damage or heal from it more frequently. The stances really arent strong enough for the cooldowns they have. Most of their utilities are bad tbh. Some of their weapons need improvments as well such as oh mace, oh sword, oh dagger, mh mace.

It also isn't even just the bursting down part, its that they have reliable sustain, boon upkeep, and damage boosts in their traits on top of that.

Look at Vindicator in WvW; They get 7% damage while Fury is active, 10% damage while Resolution is active all while being able to reliably and consistently generate both of those boons, on top of being able to reliably and consistently generate Might from just hitting with anything while Resolution is active. Willbender is basically in the same boat. Mostly because they just made Willbender like it was a Radiant Guardian build.

Warrior gets similar traits, in Defense and running Defense for sustain purposes at this point does typically mean you're not running Tactics because that is yet another sustain oriented traitline and Strength is near necessary to put out any kind of damage while also typically needing Discipline for its utility.

Its at a point where they probably need to embed better boon generation, just overall, into practically all of Warrior's traitlines. Our choices seem strong, or in the similar vein of strong, but we don't get anywhere near the same kind of payoff that these other classes do. Also I think there may be a valid point in that our damage bonuses from Cull The Weak and Stalwart Strength are not multiplicative like similar traits on other classes are, they are additive instead.

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 10/6/2022 at 11:32 PM, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Why Warrior feels like it doesn't measure up in competitive to these other classes that are, essentially, just better Warriors without actually being Warrior. We have Willbender, Vindicator, Herald, Scrapper, Holosmith, Soulbeast, Untamed and even Catalyst. Warrior is just in this weird position where if it wants to measure up to these other classes it effectively needs to get access to the same tools and utilities (not literally the same Utility skills) as these other classes and yet it doesn't really have these things.

There was a time in the past when Warrior was holding its own, but it was doing so in a particularly unhealthy way with the passive procs of Last Stand and Defy Pain. This gave it consistent uptime on damage mitigation both from Lesser Endure Pain and Lesser Balanced stance, while also giving it consistent Stability, by allowing it to essentially double up on these skills and having passively activated stunbreak with both of them. Berserker Stance was also actually useful in countering Conditions at the time as well. Was this the best way to achieve that? No. So it did need to be changed, or nerfed, however since this happened Warrior didn't really get anything to compensate for this loss. Correction, it did. It got ammo on its Shout skills which only lead down another path of an unhealthy way of achieving moderate "relevancy" in competitive modes.

Warrior was relegated to needing to run Shouts because Shouts were the only way they could even remotely achieve an adequate enough level of sustain, stunbreak, and counter to conditions. This turned into Healbreaker basically being the only relevant build for a period of time before Bladesworn released with EoD. Which this is where we saw Shout healing exacerbated, contributing to the self healing bloat that Bladesworn has had up until this last Oct 4th Balance Update. Granted Shouts were not its chief, largest source of healing; that comes from Combat Stimulant, but it could also achieve sustainable Stability...however yet again this was executed in an unhealthy way in terms of gameplay.

The trend I'm noticing here is that since the initial changes to Last Stand and Defy Pain getting their notorious 300 sec ICD (alongside traits of similar natures on other classes), Warrior has not been kept up with in the boon creep that has been consistently stuck to with every single other class. The only exception to this is Thief, however Thief still remains at the absolute top of the food chain when it comes to "avoidance" gameplay; teleports, blinds, stealth. They flash step more than a character from Bleach (I hate that I know the name of this still). However, the criticism here isn't with Thief, its with the fact that these other classes had reliable boon generation already and were not so reliant on what had arguably been just unhealthy passive gameplay in the form of those traits that Warrior lost.

Warrior as well tends to be stuck with Discipline as a near mandatory traitline to pick up for competitive gameplay. Have there been builds that have not used this in the past? Absolutely. However they also had access to those passive procs from Last Stand and Defy Pain, and in the case of one Spellbreaker build I can recall the bloated sustain that Magebane Tether offered with MMR and the easy Adrenal Health procs from Full Counter. Could just walk into an AoE, trigger FC, get Adrenal Health and also just tag someone, anyone, with Magebane Tether and just regenerate health. It didn't need the 5 second weapon swap or any other utility in Discipline...it had that. It was rightfully nerfed.

This is another trend I've noticed; almost every time Warrior has been "relevant" in competitive modes it has been due, arguably in large part, to an unhealthy mechanic or interaction it has present that inevitably gets nerfed and the class falls deep into obscurity until an expansion drops and it gets some new unhealthy gimmick to propel it forwards yet again only to have it likely repeat the pattern.

Maybe ANet, specifically CMC, is fully aware of this...maybe not, but clearly more needs to be done to end this repeating cycle of events with this class. The last balance update was genuinely a good indication of a better direction being taken, however I truly hope that future updates continue this trend and Warrior continues to see a larger selection of changes with each subsequent balance patch going forward.

I'm curious to see others thoughts as to the perspective I just laid out here. As the title says "discuss" so I'm very curious to see others perspectives. Do you agree? Disagree? Maybe someone can provide additional insight or anecdotes?

Yeah...

Fast Hands baseline alone can open up more builds than what we currently have. WHY it's still not baseline is beyond absurd. It's like Anet still does not realize how crucial weapon swapping is for warriors. 100% of the time there is ALWAYS a weapon skill off cooldown on the opposite weapon set...ready to be used...and yet we're handcuffed by the freakin' swap cooldown.

But this is an age old conversation we've been having here...

Edited October 9, 2022 by JTGuevara.9018
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[eXruina.4956]

44 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Yeah...

Fast Hands baseline alone can open up more builds than what we currently have. WHY it's still not baseline is beyond absurd. It's like Anet still does not realize how crucial weapon swapping is for warriors. 100% of the time there is ALWAYS a weapon skill off cooldown on the opposite weapon set...ready to be used...and yet we're handcuffed by the freakin' swap cooldown.

But this is an age old conversation we've been having here...

admittedly, fast hands is strong, but if they're truly moving away from it, they should introduce a completely new redesign, instead of using it to justify bad balance decisions or restrictions as they've done.

 

also, we can argue that fast hands is strong, but is it really that strong? now? in today's game? warrior's been gutted to the point and other classes are bloated to the point that i think making fast hands baseline is already trivial.

 

nonetheless its out of our hands.

 

with the new direction warrior is being taken i sincerely hope they move away from such excuses.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

42 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

admittedly, fast hands is strong, but if they're truly moving away from it, they should introduce a completely new redesign, instead of using it to justify bad balance decisions or restrictions as they've done.

 

also, we can argue that fast hands is strong, but is it really that strong? now? in today's game? warrior's been gutted to the point and other classes are bloated to the point that i think making fast hands baseline is already trivial.

 

nonetheless its out of our hands.

 

with the new direction warrior is being taken i sincerely hope they move away from such excuses.

At this point with them having given Soulbeast the ability to swap pets while in Beast Mode...I'd say giving Warrior Fast Hands just as a baseline class mechanic isn't that farfetched or unhealthy of a consideration. Especially considering how arguably basic Warrior's default class mechanic is compared to basically everything else. Hit thing, get Adrenaline, use Burst, repeat.

On paper this is very straightforward, very simple, but in how it is executed we're being gated behind needing to land these Burst abilities to actually get any benefit for the entire rest of the class in any given encounter in PvP/WvW. Other classes don't really have that. As was mentioned above that one Spellbreaker build was probably one of the only times Warrior actually had something on par with other classes that wasn't being held up by unhealthy passive procs or some other unhealthy gimmick. That particular build didn't even abuse the Adrenal Health interaction with Full Counter and you actually needed to land the hit with Full Counter to attach Magebane Tether and get the sustain from it.

As has been mentioned multiple times now in this forum, and in this thread, Warrior got left behind when it comes to boons. Unless they are willing to walk back all of the boon creep they have added to every other single class, doubtful, then they need to start boon creeping Warrior. That is clearly the direction they've wanted the game to go. They just need to not leave classes behind. Also like I said in my original post, Thief is honestly the only exception to that but it truthfully doesn't really need it since it is still the genuine king of avoidance gameplay. If they ever decided to nerf that about Thieves then they would absolutely need to start shoving more boons onto that class in its entirety, which is precisely the thing they did not do with Warrior.

[eXruina.4956]

left behind is understating it. 🤣

 

they gutted warrior back when it only had might.. while some classes were walking around like they were a 1 man raid, and they still do to this day!  how bout we get a slice of that pie. 😎🥧

[Jzaku.9765]

On 10/8/2022 at 3:46 AM, oscuro.9720 said:

I think the answer to your question is to look at the period in which Warrior was meta without relying on a broken mechanic. This was immediately prior to the 2020 patch when Strength Dagger spell was an A tier side model (not S tier as spell had formerly been, but still viable enough to solo climb to plat3 in the right hands). 
 

Why was it viable? It obviously had the tools Warrior has; hard CC, some evade frames, reasonable endurance regeneration, but it’s key feature was it’s passive sustain. If you tethered someone, you were healing for 300+ a tick plus endurance regen, plus whatever other might you were generating. It forced people to maintain pressure otherwise your passive heal would reset you, and them pressuring meant you had more possibility to generate sustain (via might generation). This meant warrior didn’t have to gap close as frequently (one of the main problems for Warrior post 2020), because excessive kiting was problematic for the enemy too.

After the 2020 patch, the passive healing via offensive engagement was no longer there. Players were no longer penalized for consistently kiting Warrior, and could whittle you down (or chunk you down) from range and let their melee cooldowns fully reset while the warrior has to use all of their cooldowns to gap close. This isn’t to say spell was completely hapless, it could punch up a weight class in the right hands by virtue of the high skill scaling aspect of Full Counter, but was pretty much hard locked out of the upper tiers if skill levels were equalized. 
 

So what does Warrior need? First is some passive, trait based sustain that is generated by engagement (we don’t want gimmicky sustain based on boon uptime like other classes, since that isn’t predicated on anything but pressing a button, which is lame). Based on my experiences so far, the defense line rework may have properly provided this, though it’s still too early to confidently say, I need to fight against a more diverse set of classes. However, defense spell definitely seems to be an improvement over strength dagger prior to the patch, and may put spell in a decent spot.
 

Second is some damage. I don’t think this is far off. I’ve seen some people saying Warrior needs 50% more damage, which is just ridiculous. But there are specific places they can add more. Just changing 100blades cast time alone can make a huge difference. Making a 2 second stun reliably remove at-least half a persons health is a significant change. 

 

Beyond those two, it’s hard to look at warrior’s kit and specifically say what is needed. It would be easier to identify bigger issues when Warrior actually has the tools to force an engagement.

 

Also defense blade seems to be pretty decent as well. Lower floor with a more gentle skill curve compared to spell, and more team fight potential. 

Largely agree with your assessment but I'm not sure if reworking Spb utilities would do anything.

First thing I need to clarify before the rest of this post is referring to something as "Unfair". You see this term in competitive card games often - not in a derogatory way, more of a way to describe a strong play you specifically designed your deck around that progresses your deck's game plan.

As a few people have identified, Warrior utilities are Warrior's only real source of "Unfair" plays. Reloading Shouts for massive sustain. Bull's Charge which combines mobility, CC, and evasion all in one button. Shake It Off honestly probably competing for one of the best skills in the game. The Weapons and Traits of the Core class, in general, is way too "Fair" in comparison to other classes that get significantly more flexibility and options, if you look at the whole package minus utility skills. I will say that the Defense rework significantly improved that Traitline in this aspect - I would hope that Anet has also identified this to be the issue to work on.

Strong Spb utilities would just be competing for slots with the strong utilities you use now. I don't think it would move the needle much at all. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Jzaku.9765

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Largely agree with your assessment but I'm not sure if reworking Spb utilities would do anything.

It naturally depends on what the reworks are, but it'd be hard to make them worse.

My general thoughts are:

Sight Beyond Sight: Removing a blind and your next hit being a critical hit is a bit weak. It should be outright immune to blind as long as the effect lasts, and make the next attack unevadeable and/or unblockable. To be really spicy, it could potentially hit through Distortion.

Imminent Threat: Leap, rush, or teleport to the target and apply a Magebane Tether. Flips to Realised Threat when a tether is applied (either because of this skill or the trait).

-> Realised Threat: Consume your tether to pull the tethered target.

Featherfoot Grace: Also grants superspeed and resistance to nearby allies.

Break Enchantments: Replaced with Break Engagement. Basically Riposting Shadows or Roll for Initiative in warrior form. (I think spellbreaker could do with a 'break stun and get out of dodge so the enemy can't just restun you' skill).

Natural Healing: Replaced by Mystic Healing. Strip boons from nearby enemies and heal nearby allies. Healing is increased if boons are removed. (In PvE, the base healing should be higher and the bonus for removing boons lower, so it isn't handicapped in PvE by a lack of enemy boons.)

 

Logic: My main goals are to give spellbreaker more support options, and to make it something of a more mobile threat in PvP when not in a support build. I think this fits thematically with the spellbreaker's Sunspear-affiliated history - their skills are likely to have been developed in the context of the Sunspear creed of never fighting alone while being engaged in a guerilla war against Joko. Therefore, in addition to 'gank the spellcaster', the suggestions here are oriented towards being able to get out alive afterwards - something that is also likely to be useful in competitive.

Another consideration is that spellbreaker is supposed to be drawing some magical abilities from mesmer and dervish, so I figured it was fair to include some more overtly magical effects.

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

You've made quite the keen observation.

I hadn't noticed before how reliant warrior was on unhealthy gimmicks. But when I think all that time ago at the beginning of the game, yes, warrior was garbage then. To take warrior out of the garbage heap, they tacked on unhealthy gimmicks. Time moves and oh no! Conditions are eating warriors alive! Answer: Inject more unhealthy gimmicks. Then comes the nerfs. Rinse and repeat from then on.

In my opinion, the only reason warrior has to rely on such things is because warrior has nothing else. Our damage has been nerfed and we don't have stealth, blinds, ports or any other gimmick to lean on. There literally is nothing.

But that's why I enjoy full counter so much.

Since the beginning, warriors have been calling on anet to give defensive and support options through an F2 and F3, maybe F4 ability, anything to spend adrenaline on that would help in surviving. Right when they gave us an F2, warrior took a huge step up. They reduced Berserker to a single F1 and people stopped playing it. There's a clear pattern here.

I know it won't happen but we still need more options to spend adrenaline on besides just one offensive burst. IMO, that's the only way to stop warrior from needing unhealthy gimmicks.

[oscuro.9720]

9 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Largely agree with your assessment but I'm not sure if reworking Spb utilities would do anything.

First thing I need to clarify before the rest of this post is referring to something as "Unfair". You see this term in competitive card games often - not in a derogatory way, more of a way to describe a strong play you specifically designed your deck around that progresses your deck's game plan.

As a few people have identified, Warrior utilities are Warrior's only real source of "Unfair" plays. Reloading Shouts for massive sustain. Bull's Charge which combines mobility, CC, and evasion all in one button. Shake It Off honestly probably competing for one of the best skills in the game. The Weapons and Traits of the Core class, in general, is way too "Fair" in comparison to other classes that get significantly more flexibility and options, if you look at the whole package minus utility skills. I will say that the Defense rework significantly improved that Traitline in this aspect - I would hope that Anet has also identified this to be the issue to work on.

Strong Spb utilities would just be competing for slots with the strong utilities you use now. I don't think it would move the needle much at all. 

I actually wasn’t thinking of utilities when writing that, much for the reason you said. For spell, trait tweaks are really what I was thinking of. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its almost like having your entire class mechanic just be one skill while other classes have 4-5 each isn't a good idea. We're lucky they even gave core bursts back to Berserker.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

28 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Its almost like having your entire class mechanic just be one skill while other classes have 4-5 each isn't a good idea.

Anet was wrong about keeping warrior "non-magical" without boons and they were wrong about keeping warrior "simple" with a single F1. They've dropped the ball big time with warrior.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

On 10/9/2022 at 2:48 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Its almost like having your entire class mechanic just be one skill while other classes have 4-5 each isn't a good idea. We're lucky they even gave core bursts back to Berserker.

As I've stated in another thread today, the problem also resides in that for Warrior to get benefit of "spending" or "using" our class mechanic we need to land hits with them. Other classes get effects or boons that trigger on use of their mechanic, just on use. No hits required. Warrior is hard gated in combat by this stipulation where other classes are not. In theory it seems sound, in practice there are just so many avenues to negate these hits that it doesn't work out so well. We're also faced with this being a two-fold issue at the moment because even if we do hit with these skills we're still not competing, in terms of damage, with other classes because, again, our "boosts" to our damage are locked behind needing to have hit with a burst skill beforehand.