Thoughts on replacing energy meld

[Warscythes.9307]

So I would like to start this by assuming we are all on the same page, that energy meld is useless in every single game mode at the moment. This originally existed I believe the devs wanted Vindicators to have an emergency "oh kitten" button when they are at 80% endurance and Samorag is about to swipe you and your firebrand is dead on the nearby spear somewhere so you don't have stab. This is no longer an issue. The energy cost for recharging 15 or 25 endurance is just way too high especially it has a cast time. So I would like to suggest several general ideas on replacing it as the original design no longer applies.

 

1) Make energy meld to buff your next jump

Vindicator is focused a lot on its jump, so it does make sense for a specific profession skill to buff its profession mechanic. For example a skill that is instant cast, your next jump now deal X% more damage if jump 1, or generate boons(alacrity maybe) and extend it by 2 seconds instead if jump 2, or the heal/barrier is increased by X% if jump 3. Values would have to be nerfed in PvP and WvW as needed.

 

2) Literally the old jump but with better values

Because the traits are nerfed, if you just bring back the old jump then nobody will use it. So it will need to be better than the older jump by a lot, I know some people liked the older jumps so here is an idea.

 

I was going to write a third but I can't think of anything off the top of my head, literally anything will likely be to better than what it is now though. I mostly just want to bring it to attention to the devs that yes the energy meld nerf was probably a placeholder, but you do know you have to look at it and update it eventually. This is literally a core profession skill. Imagine if soulbeast literally never merges because is pointless, that would feels bad eh?

 

[Tulkas.2576]

I like your first idea

[soul.9651]

Confused people probably never played vindicator before because rn energy meld is indeed just a dead skill

[Zaret.1450]

Id prefer to close the evade conversation, for me 1 or 2 dodges isnt a significant change, and the dodge does enought dmg for me as it is, i feel more free and as powerfull now.

Instead id like energy meld to be related to the legends, maybe something like, using legend skills charge energy meld and once fully charged you unleash an attack based on the legend.

With that we could make more unique things for vindi, make energy meld be like an orb or a ying yang circle, and it fills when you use legend skills with the legend colour, and you can fill it with up to 2 legends.

For example you have shiro and archemorus, you fill one half with shiro and then use it and you launch a jade giant sword or a jade winf laser or shiro appears and strikes the enemy, or you can charge shiro, swap, charge archemorus, and then have an attack that uses both of them, maybe arche impaling with his spear and then shiro striking for more dmg.

Aliance is suposed to be around the legends joining hands, their coordination or something, but vindi ended up as a, archie on his way, vick on its own, and rocket jump for the fun, making skills swap on their own doesnt work, and vicky and arch dont realy play well together, so why not give something that reaffirms that "Legendary Aliance" just the aliance can be between any 2 legends, and then maybe maintain one of the jump endurance traits and change the others to make energy meld and legends better.

[Warscythes.9307]

18 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

Id prefer to close the evade conversation, for me 1 or 2 dodges isnt a significant change, and the dodge does enought dmg for me as it is, i feel more free and as powerfull now.

Instead id like energy meld to be related to the legends, maybe something like, using legend skills charge energy meld and once fully charged you unleash an attack based on the legend.

With that we could make more unique things for vindi, make energy meld be like an orb or a ying yang circle, and it fills when you use legend skills with the legend colour, and you can fill it with up to 2 legends.

For example you have shiro and archemorus, you fill one half with shiro and then use it and you launch a jade giant sword or a jade winf laser or shiro appears and strikes the enemy, or you can charge shiro, swap, charge archemorus, and then have an attack that uses both of them, maybe arche impaling with his spear and then shiro striking for more dmg.

Aliance is suposed to be around the legends joining hands, their coordination or something, but vindi ended up as a, archie on his way, vick on its own, and rocket jump for the fun, making skills swap on their own doesnt work, and vicky and arch dont realy play well together, so why not give something that reaffirms that "Legendary Aliance" just the aliance can be between any 2 legends, and then maybe maintain one of the jump endurance traits and change the others to make energy meld and legends better.

Here's the problem, is too much work. There's no way they are going to put too much resource into this like animation and whatnot if an easier but probably just as fitting solution exists especially if you want to design 1 new additional skill for literally every single pairing. Vindicator has 6 different legends if you count alliance as 2. If I haven't forgotten middle school math yet, then that means 15 skills based on 2 unique combinations of 6 different legends. They are not going to do that. Even if they consider that route, is probably going to take them a year because Anet moves like a Koala. Chances are whatever they do has to be of limited scope.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Zaret.1450]

32 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Here's the problem, is too much work. There's no way they are going to put too much resource into this like animation and whatnot if an easier but probably just as fitting solution exists especially if you want to design 1 new additional skill for literally every single pairing. Vindicator has 6 different legends if you count alliance as 2. If I haven't forgotten middle school math yet, then that means 15 skills based on 2 unique combinations of 6 different legends. They are not going to do that. Even if they consider that route, is probably going to take them a year because Anet moves like a Koala. Chances are whatever they do has to be of limited scope.

I know, i was just saying something id like to see.

Also think that, at least for me, revenant needs a big mecanic rework on energy and cooldowns, and vindi still feels like it is half finished sometimes, as a main dms player (or id like to be main dps), i think archemorus is just too bland overall, the dmg is too spread, it has condis it has no use for, and usually dwarf is more usefull, if they want to realy finish and make rev and vindi good, and i mean realy good, not broken, not overpowered, good, they should take long term ideas and start changing things bit by bit till it is truly completed

[Howluffu.7259]

Enough with the jump.

Let it be anything else completely original and FUN to press!

[Fan Didly Tastic.7169]

Maybe I am just an kitten hat but I've always felt like energy meld was a filler ability so that there was more to do on the class while you waited, since old vindi was a lot of waiting.  I think it should be something that fits in with the idea of an "alliance".  Maybe it would be cool if it was the Elite skill of your other legend.  Now now, I know what you're thinking, random, right? Yes, but it plays into the alliance thing.  Your legend is allied with the other legend(s if literally alliance), in a more literal sense now, giving you access to both Elites at all times, sure they cost the same but you always have access. 

This would also add more unique flavor to alliance as you would have a choice over which elite depending upon which of viktor or archie you were on last.  And who knows, maybe we could call it an invocation so that it would benefit from the invocation stuff, like "invoke elite".  Anything else I say about it is semantics past this point, the main idea is I think that Energy meld should be something that has to do with the legend you aren't currently locked into.  Who knows, maybe if things were like this, there would be one area and instance where Jade Winds isn't just a waft of green air off of a land fill.  But anyways, as energy meld stands, it's just a cast time that is barely worth the endurance it gives me, sometimes I don't even bother because tree song/scavengers burst exist.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Fan Didly Tastic.7169
ggggrrrrrrrrammar

[Uete.3805]

I'm really liking what I'm reading. I agree that energy meld should be a goner and replaced with sth else.

An empowered jump, seems the most easily implemented option, but the idea of using an ability from your other legend sounds cool as well (although having 2 elites might be too much). Another option would be to get a new skill based on Vizu disarming Shiro and named after the famous assassin from gw1 lore. Since Vindicator has pretty low cc, it'd be cool if it dazed the enemy and then applied some other effect based on legend (or just simplify it and make it an unblockable daze, or a daze that rips boons and gives vuln).

In any case, I think a rework to the Major traits is also in order, since the 2-dodge change makes them too op as they were an pretty lackluster in some modes as they are now. Basically, they could make them more interesting so that they provide better damage/healing/boon management, for instance.

[Buran.3796]

  They should just remove it. It can be argued that the new weapon + the new dodge are enough changes in the mechanics for the core Rev, or maybe they could add some effect based on the core legends as happens with Song of the Mist or Spirit Boon or the trident skills (which could open the way to a viable hybrid damage Vindicator build using the gs).

   Currently EM is mostly useless, and yes, they could turn it into a cc, but that would only help Vindis running the Alliance, since every other legend has decent cc, which are the ones they need it the less.

[otto.5684]

I will echo others, it should be removed in favor of something else. Vindicator does not have CC, so it could be that. Or some sort of team support, since Vindicator lacks damage. Or we could just tunnel damage to make Vindicator parse close to 40k.

[Zaret.1450]

12 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  They should just remove it. It can be argued that the new weapon + the new dodge are enough changes in the mechanics for the core Rev, or maybe they could add some effect based on the core legends as happens with Song of the Mist or Spirit Boon or the trident skills (which could open the way to a viable hybrid damage Vindicator build using the gs).

   Currently EM is mostly useless, and yes, they could turn it into a cc, but that would only help Vindis running the Alliance, since every other legend has decent cc, which are the ones they need it the less.

In fact you could argue that aliance has more cc than other legends, one of archie skills is a stun, a small one but it is a stun with a "low" cost if that exist on legends.

The point is shiro jade winds shouldnt even count, the energy drain and its effects make it simply not worth at all to use, even more when you have IO wich is probably the only shiro skill that actually increases your dps (im talking pver here) and phase traversal and the other skill are great for engaging or disengaging in pvp modes and wvw, jade winds is just... a waste of a skill for the cc it gives, if it was 500 breakbar then maybe id use it XD

for dwarf chains are decent, a great soft cc and if you go to aetherblades strike you want to have this, but it is a soft cc anyway wich means it is slower than a heavy cc doing breakbar dmg, or should be.

As for other legends on centaur you would pair it with vick and use staff, staff 5 is god in the cc side, and demon... i dont see a hibrid vindi or a condi vindi working, nor i see a necessity for it to work, give the heal side good boon on pve maybe alac, and the dps side a bit of cc and more dmg on spear and a couple of skills.

Maybe make EM an upkeep so you give alac while using it on vick, and you could make it so on arch the upkeep makes your skills burn enemies, or on arch it makes the next spear explode, stunning or knoking down enemies.

It could be fun

[Kulvar.1239]

I would remove it and make Alliance Tactics restore 25 extra energy.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Kulvar.1239

[Zero.1028]

It would be nice if Vindi could just have 2 normal dodges and your F2 allowed you to have the jump skill (obviously it would consume stamina as you used it to be fair.) Since a lot of people preferred the big jump over the two small ones maybe have a passive that allows players to convert the current jump back into the old jump that consumed 100 stamina for one big hit, that way you'll have a wider range of builds for both players that liked the old vindi and players that like the new version

[soul.9651]

4 hours ago, Zero.1028 said:

It would be nice if Vindi could just have 2 normal dodges and your F2 allowed you to have the jump skill (obviously it would consume stamina as you used it to be fair.) Since a lot of people preferred the big jump over the two small ones maybe have a passive that allows players to convert the current jump back into the old jump that consumed 100 stamina for one big hit, that way you'll have a wider range of builds for both players that liked the old vindi and players that like the new version

Idk for me rn the biggest awkward to use skills are energy meld and both elites. I was used to the old dodge but rn im used to the new one aswell and i think they wont change the dodge any time soon or ever considering they just recently made those changes to the dodge so changing it again so fast just wouldnt make sence xd 

[SWLDguitar.5746]

Now that Vindi has 2 dodges, energy meld is not needed.

The middle column traits are kind of pointless (always have been) except for the top one - which just makes it hard to balance.

 

Would love to see energy meld tied to middle column traits as an upkeep toggle.

For example,

1. top trait would pulse PBAoE power damage and vuln
2. middle would pulse quickness or alac and chill
3. bottom trait barrier & short duration stab

[Shiv Deeviant.8072]

Weighing in here. A lot of these ideas are super interesting! Some ideas (some cribbed from ideas already presented):

1. EM deals an attack based on Legend, even if you are just adding a second Song of the Mists attack that's a great double-up in my opinion. This would give extra functionality and turn EM into a great endurance gain for Alliance jumpers.

2. Drop EM entirely and buff the Master Trait line of Vindicator Traits: Move Reaver's Curse to Center spot and remove the target limiter, ensuring that Boon Bunnies have better boon extension time. Make the New Reaver's Curse Spot something like Sigil of Stamina, or give a strike buff for every enemy hit for raw dps builds. Viktor track can remain the same as that Vigor buff is a good option for solo or target poor environments or just swap it for something like Engi Purity of Purpose on Condi Cleanse.

3. Have Energy Meld be an Upkeep skill and swap the Master Trait line in Vindicator to affect what it does: Archemorus Counts kills for a strike bonus that lasts for a set time after drop or explodes in true Archemorus fashion (Though honestly that should be something like a rework for the Elite for Lore Flavor). Imperial pulses boons. Viktor adds Conditions to your attacks based on Which half of the Legend you are channeling (Archemorus: Burn/Vuln, Viktor: Chill/Bleed) or pulses heal/cleanse. 

 

That said, Loving the spec overall, just wish it could have that LITTLE bit more to push it over the edge for a good rotation and feel!

 

[stormemperor.3745]

It shouldn't exist at all in first place.

[otto.5684]

46 minutes ago, stormemperor.3745 said:

It shouldn't exist at all in first place.

It was pretty useful before the 2 dodges. However, removing it is lame. it really will suck if the elite has only 1 F-skill. We want more not less options.

Edited October 17, 2022 by otto.5684

[Anonynja.3172]

On 10/11/2022 at 1:44 PM, zaswer.5246 said:

I know, i was just saying something id like to see.

Also think that, at least for me, revenant needs a big mecanic rework on energy and cooldowns, and vindi still feels like it is half finished sometimes, as a main dms player (or id like to be main dps), i think archemorus is just too bland overall, the dmg is too spread, it has condis it has no use for, and usually dwarf is more usefull, if they want to realy finish and make rev and vindi good, and i mean realy good, not broken, not overpowered, good, they should take long term ideas and start changing things bit by bit till it is truly completed

Agreed. Vindicator only supports ONE build, power DPS, and you don't even need to bring Vindicator's legend for it to work. Jalis is usually superior because it offers damage sustain & personal damage reduction with the hammers, decent CC with the chain, and stability for your subgroup. 

Saint Viktor is a dead stance that's currently only viable as a condi cleansing, stun-breaking healer in WvW blobs. Even then, plenty alternatives can do the same while providing more boons. 

Energy Meld is useless. The whole spec feels half-designed.

I want to see synergy between the Alliance stances. Make damage buffs from healing, healing buffs from dealing damage. Right now you can't even play a viable heal/power DPS hybrid... on a class seemingly centered around healing and power DPS! It's so disheartening. We have a fun power DPS option, but it's outclassed by mechanist, virtuoso, bladesworn, and arguably even herald. Anet really needs to figure out what Vindicator is supposed to be. 

Energy Meld idea: Give a massive buff to damage while in Saint Viktor stance. Give a massive buff to healing while in Archemorous stance. Dodges extend the buff. You can keep Saint Viktor's Urn on while in Archemorous to pump out heals while dealing damage, then drop it, use the Spear (changed to an upkeep skill) and switch to Saint Viktor to pump out damage while healing.

This hybrid power/healing playstyle could offer a viable niche for us. I've tried making hybrid builds with this class, and your damage plummets the moment you try to offer any team support. Energy Meld and the middle traits are currently useless and need to be repurposed to give the class internal synergy.

[Elessaria.9142]

Vindicator is very fun to play and has some competitive builds right now but the Alliance is in a weird spot because a lot of the skills are good; great even; but they are hamstrung by a common Energy pool. Being able to swap between them for offensive/defensive abilities doesn't really work in the current game as it just feels bad being locked into those choices that you are INCREDIBLY unlikely to be built into for 10 seconds. There isn't, and probably never will be, a meta build that wants to use both (arguably either) Legends, and so the F3 is a relic of the flip-over beta system and F2 is half an Energy Sigil on double the cooldown that is hardly worth a key bind

 

I'd prefer to see the Profession skills affect Energy which none of the elite specs have right now. My ideal concept for the class would be to lock Archemorus and Saint Viktor as your two legends on Vindicator, then have the F2 boost your energy regen by 100% for 5 seconds on 30 second CD, and the F3 reset CD on Legend swap on 30s cooldown. That would even fit lore-wise as the two were rivals who tolerated each other out of common cause. Having one shove the other out the way prematurely and be more greedy on the limited availability of Energy both fits the theme and acknowledges that a DPS player is not going to want to spend significant time on Saint Viktor, and a Healer is not going to want to spend significant time on Archemorus. Allowing a swap into the other legend in a clutch situation without 10s in utility limbo gives useful flexibilty to both offensive and defensive builds. Then to round out the class add an F4 with good functionality to compensate for the lower utility pool; maybe a good hard CC when on Archemorus and AoE Stability on Viktor.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Elessaria.9142