Make Grenade/Mortar great again.

[freakcoco.4287]

Quick is important for Grenade/Mortar scrapper in wvw/pvp, not because DPS.

It's that Grenade/Mortar are super hard to land, 1 sec activation time and slow projectile.

Since the patch take heal/cleanse,/superspeed/stab,/projectilehate/stealth/quickness away from Scrapper.

I think it is time to fix the problem.

Reduce Grenade/Mortar cast time and increase velocity speed , or do something let we don't need to predict 2 ~ 3 sec to land skill.

 

 

 

 

 

Bizgurk.5639 mentioned that you can use "Instant cast  + Allow skill retargeting" to make nade easier to land, but the tips is not working when I try to use mortar scrapper.

You may say  I'm a newbie and a expert can predict enemy to land the skill, but I think there have lot of newbie in pvp/wvw need help, and that's why mech are so popular .

 

 

fast with range indicator + Allow skill retargeting

 

 

Instant cast  + Allow skill retargeting

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by freakcoco.4287
Add some clip/ and try to explain why "Instant cast  + Allow skill retargeting" not not work well

[Jski.6180]

Kits need nerfing not buffed. Its the reason why the classes over all keep getting nerfed.

[SleepyBat.9034]

You're both wrong, Kits are fine as they are.

[Bizgurk.5639]

7 hours ago, freakcoco.4287 said:

Reduce Grenade/Mortar cast time and increase velocity speed , or do something let we don't need to predict 2 ~ 3 sec to land skill.

Have you set 'Ground Targeting' to Instant and enabled 'Allow skill retargeting'? If yes, the direction of you grenades are determined at the end of the cast. Whether the cast time would be 10 seconds or 0 seconds it would make no difference in terms of prediction.
Only the velocity would have an impact.
If you have set the aforementioned options to anything else then you might have a hard time hitting anything that moves in a Brownian motion.

 

[freakcoco.4287]

21 minutes ago, Bizgurk.5639 said:

Have you set 'Ground Targeting' to Instant and enabled 'Allow skill retargeting'? If yes, the direction of you grenades are determined at the end of the cast. Whether the cast time would be 10 seconds or 0 seconds it would make no difference in terms of prediction.
Only the velocity would have an impact.
If you have set the aforementioned options to anything else then you might have a hard time hitting anything that moves in a Brownian motion.

 

It work on most of situation for nade , but fast with range indicator is very useful on something you must cast on right point ( like function gyro when you need to help teammate ).

Mortar velocity speed still too slow for a normal projectile and  Instant cast + retargeting cannot help it.

Edited October 20, 2022 by freakcoco.4287

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Grenade kit is fine IF you use the grenadier perk. Otherwise it is kind of unreliable unless you use it at close range.

Mortar kit is honestly fine. Yes it's hard to use at range against mobile target but it is a great zoning tool and I dont think it needs any buffs or nerf

[Jski.6180]

The issues is that the current kits do not hold the to universal rule of cd on swap. This makes the kits to often use at will and not use with in that kit. You can never make kits better with out comply braking the class and your never going to see real productive buffs to the eng classes. If you have no risk for use of an kit or even swapping out of that kit though cd swap you simply have 5 free skills on every eng class at the cost of 1 utility slot.

[freakcoco.4287]

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

The issues is that the current kits do not hold the to universal rule of cd on swap. This makes the kits to often use at will and not use with in that kit. You can never make kits better with out comply braking the class and your never going to see real productive buffs to the eng classes. If you have no risk for use of an kit or even swapping out of that kit though cd swap you simply have 5 free skills on every eng class at the cost of 1 utility slot.

I mean .... engi have no weapon swap, it's not zero cost.

[freakcoco.4287]

6 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Grenade kit is fine IF you use the grenadier perk. Otherwise it is kind of unreliable unless you use it at close range.

Mortar kit is honestly fine. Yes it's hard to use at range against mobile target but it is a great zoning tool and I dont think it needs any buffs or nerf

I'm not try to buff it.

I just want make it easier to play.

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

16 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Kits need nerfing not buffed. Its the reason why the classes over all keep getting nerfed.

You are right, Engi need nerfing not buffed.

Engineer has continued to be a dominant force in all game mode, Please consider nerf it ASAP.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

6 hours ago, freakcoco.4287 said:

I'm not try to buff it.

I just want make it easier to play.

 

Unless Anet drastically buff the velocity of both projectile there's no real way to make ground targetting skill  projectile easier to use.

 

And considering that you can run away while launching grenade/mortar backward I think grenade and mortar being hard to use is fine

[Jski.6180]

8 hours ago, freakcoco.4287 said:

I mean .... engi have no weapon swap, it's not zero cost.

Having a 0 cd swap comply brakes the rules every other class must play by even if its not an wepon swap because atument swapping and lengdars swaps also have cd.

[Ghos.1326]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Having a 0 cd swap comply brakes the rules every other class must play by even if its not an wepon swap because atument swapping and lengdars swaps also have cd.

1s CD * swap

[shion.2084]

On 10/20/2022 at 11:39 AM, freakcoco.4287 said:

It work on most of situation for nade , but fast with range indicator is very useful on something you must cast on right point ( like function gyro when you need to help teammate ).

Mortar velocity speed still too slow for a normal projectile and  Instant cast + retargeting cannot help it.

Try this build.... and imagine what would happen if you let me have even better grenades.....
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PeQAIlFw0YeMLWJO6TftWA-zZIDBtBA
You can make a mortar quickness based build with explosives, tools, scrapper, and using chrono runes.  Utilities are heal gyro shredder, Elix Gun, Blast Gyro, Mortar

Edited October 21, 2022 by shion.2084

[shion.2084]

Oh yeah, get use to instant cast for nades

[Kuma.1503]

6 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Having a 0 cd swap comply brakes the rules every other class must play by even if its not an wepon swap because atument swapping and lengdars swaps also have cd.

Those swaps are baked in and don't take up a utility slot. 

Engineer also pays a double tax for this by having the lowest weapon variety in the game. 

Reminder that we still lack a core power MH and OH weapon. 

We also lack a core melee weapon which means it is overly reliant on projectiles.

[Jski.6180]

On 10/21/2022 at 3:49 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

Those swaps are baked in and don't take up a utility slot. 

Engineer also pays a double tax for this by having the lowest weapon variety in the game. 

Reminder that we still lack a core power MH and OH weapon. 

We also lack a core melee weapon which means it is overly reliant on projectiles.

That what tool belt skills are for to make up an utility slot use the core effect of the eng class. Kits are NOT the core effect of the eng class they are simply an utility and should be balanced as such.

Having a skill that dose more then one thing is still a type of chose even if you dont have so many wepon to use.

Eng still has a chose in dmg types for there wepon sets they they have they are just more locked to eleit spec then most classes (even though most classes do have power elite spec and condi elite spec.)

That part of the core eng class give and take kits have nothing to do with that. Do not see kits are an tool to fix the eng class or your doomed to get the eng class nerfed because of kits effects.

[Kuma.1503]

32 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

That what tool belt skills are for to make up an utility slot use the core effect of the eng class. Kits are NOT the core effect of the eng class they are simply an utility and should be balanced as such.

Having a skill that dose more then one thing is still a type of chose even if you dont have so many wepon to use.

Eng still has a chose in dmg types for there wepon sets they they have they are just more locked to eleit spec then most classes (even though most classes do have power elite spec and condi elite spec.)

That part of the core eng class give and take kits have nothing to do with that. Do not see kits are an tool to fix the eng class or your doomed to get the eng class nerfed because of kits effects.

Enginner utilities are balanced individually with their toolbelt in mind. Without their toolbelt they are weaker pound for pound than similar utilties from other classes. Once you take the toolbelt into account it roughly evens out. 

Incidentally, this is why Mechanist signets are so much stronger than most engineer utilties. They are tuned to be stronger than the usual engineer utilties because they don't have a toolbelt attatched. 

People love to look at kits in a vacuum. Sure, put engineer kits on another class and they will overperform, but engineer has multiple weaknesses to balance them out. 

They both have the lowest weapon variety in the game, and completely lack weapon swap. 

You compared them to revenant and Elementalist, but neglected that Revenant has weapon swap, and Elementalist attunements come baked into the spec. Both also have much better weapon variety than Engineer. Both have core MH and OH power and condi options, which engineer lacks and must take a kit to make up for. 

 

[Jski.6180]

7 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Enginner utilities are balanced individually with their toolbelt in mind. Without their toolbelt they are weaker pound for pound than similar utilties from other classes. Once you take the toolbelt into account it roughly evens out. 

Incidentally, this is why Mechanist signets are so much stronger than most engineer utilties. They are tuned to be stronger than the usual engineer utilties because they don't have a toolbelt attatched. 

People love to look at kits in a vacuum. Sure, put engineer kits on another class and they will overperform, but engineer has multiple weaknesses to balance them out. 

They both have the lowest weapon variety in the game, and completely lack weapon swap. 

You compared them to revenant and Elementalist, but neglected that Revenant has weapon swap, and Elementalist attunements come baked into the spec. Both also have much better weapon variety than Engineer. Both have core MH and OH power and condi options, which engineer lacks and must take a kit to make up for. 

 

I agree with most of what your saying but your missing the point that kits are filling a full roll on there own. They are a 1 utility slot class in them self that WAY beyond any thing that classes have now with one utility slot or even one wepon atument lengdarly all with out the draw back of swamping out of that kit. So all of eng elite spec ARE every class type because of kits and kits alone not because of that given class effects. Its a real issues with kits and to keep them as they are will end up to more nerfs for all of the eng classes and to come eng classes.

[Kuma.1503]

29 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

I agree with most of what your saying but your missing the point that kits are filling a full roll on there own. They are a 1 utility slot class in them self that WAY beyond any thing that classes have now with one utility slot or even one wepon atument lengdarly all with out the draw back of swamping out of that kit. So all of eng elite spec ARE every class type because of kits and kits alone not because of that given class effects. Its a real issues with kits and to keep them as they are will end up to more nerfs for all of the eng classes and to come eng classes.

I don't know if I'd go that far but I see what you're saying. 

While I wouldn't call them their own class, Kits do accomplish a lot in exchange for a utility slot. They are powerful utilties, but not so broken that engineer needs to be nerfed because of them. 

The most powerful kits are the support kits. Med Kit and Elixir gun, but both of these have been toned down thanks to HAM. 

Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit, and Mortar kit all fill similar roles. For power builds you only need one. You normally run grenades to fill the gap that a weapon swap would on other classes. 

 

We do run into problems with condition based builds. But ironically, it's for the opposite problem that you've pointed out. They are not a full role on their own when building for condi, because a lot of the hard hitting condition damage skills are spread out among each of the kits. 

Engineer would benefit from having kits become more clearly specialized so you don't need as many of them to make condi builds work. I'm not entirely sure how Arena Net would go about accomplishing that, and I definitely do not envy them if they ever decide to sort that out. 

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I don't know if I'd go that far but I see what you're saying. 

While I wouldn't call them their own class, Kits do accomplish a lot in exchange for a utility slot. They are powerful utilties, but not so broken that engineer needs to be nerfed because of them. 

The most powerful kits are the support kits. Med Kit and Elixir gun, but both of these have been toned down thanks to HAM. 

Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit, and Mortar kit all fill similar roles. For power builds you only need one. You normally run grenades to fill the gap that a weapon swap would on other classes. 

 

We do run into problems with condition based builds. But ironically, it's for the opposite problem that you've pointed out. They are not a full role on their own when building for condi, because a lot of the hard hitting condition damage skills are spread out among each of the kits. 

Engineer would benefit from having kits become more clearly specialized so you don't need as many of them to make condi builds work. I'm not entirely sure how Arena Net would go about accomplishing that, and I definitely do not envy them if they ever decide to sort that out. 

A med kit and just the med kit has made the scraper class into a pure support class something that it is not and was not made for. The only reason why its ran support over holo is because of the super speed and a bit more clear. The thing is holo is also a pure support with med kit so is mecha. Its not important how you play eng when you have a kit as it becomes the class more then being an eng of different types.

Kits are too powerful for the eng class to ever be more then just an "Kit place holder."

[Tiilimon.6094]

6 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

A med kit and just the med kit has made the scraper class into a pure support class something that it is not and was not made for. The only reason why its ran support over holo is because of the super speed and a bit more clear. The thing is holo is also a pure support with med kit so is mecha. Its not important how you play eng when you have a kit as it becomes the class more then being an eng of different types.

Kits are too powerful for the eng class to ever be more then just an "Kit place holder."

 

Pure support?

Med kit doesn't disable all the toolbelt skills/utilities, so we are still able to use CCs and damage abilities while med blasting, so how is it pure support.

Also afaik, there's one(obsolete?) wvw scrapper build that sits on the medkit almost 247, the rest of the builds swap out of it asap when you've cast what you need from it, or swap to it for a few seconds to get extra healing from the trait when dropping healing mortars or super elixirs... 😄 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Tiilimon.6094

[Shivan.9438]

Get stunlocked from 100 to 0 in about 3 seconds then come back crying about engineer. If anything, they need nerfed into the ground. Eat the facking dirt.

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

1 hour ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Get stunlocked from 100 to 0 in about 3 seconds then come back crying about engineer. If anything, they need nerfed into the ground. Eat the facking dirt.

I am really amazed about how easy engineer can do so much damage, like when I am playing catalyst. 
When the engineer gets one knock down, its over for sure cuz it has so much damage like what the hell. 
Hes literally one shotting...... Idk if its me but the damage seems to be too much to be honest.
Because not enough people play engineer for everyone to realize how broken it is .

Engineer has continued to be a dominant force in all game mode, Please consider nerf it ASAP.

[Jski.6180]

8 hours ago, Tiilimon.6094 said:

 

Pure support?

Med kit doesn't disable all the toolbelt skills/utilities, so we are still able to use CCs and damage abilities while med blasting, so how is it pure support.

Also afaik, there's one(obsolete?) wvw scrapper build that sits on the medkit almost 247, the rest of the builds swap out of it asap when you've cast what you need from it, or swap to it for a few seconds to get extra healing from the trait when dropping healing mortars or super elixirs... 😄 

Yes the eng is a pure support class with the med kit every thing else is just an bonuse effect. That why it brakes the balancing of the game.

Oddly elixirs gun dose high dmg with its Acid Bomb.