ZeroTheRuler.7415 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 (edited) Was talking to some guild members in EcK (my all thief guild). I think it would be cool if it were made to be 5 man for PvE. This would be a massive QoL and give a useful utility skill/option if quickness was low in a 5 man group for instanced content. Also yes I do realize haste is a 'trick' meaning the cooldown can be lowered via trickster in trickery. However with this being said, I think that would be great to have another support utility option as a QoL. It would also lead to more build diversity. For instance quite often bountiful theft is taken over pressure striking as a small DPS loss when boonrip is needed. Both bountiful theft and pressure striking are the other to options beside trickster. Anyhow one can dream lol. I wish for a time when thief isn't looked down on in PvE. This is for reference.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hastehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trickeryhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Thefthttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tricksterhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pressure_Striking Edited October 28, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415 added links for reference 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithril Ashwalker.6230 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 52 minutes ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said: Was talking to some guild members in EcK (my all thief guild). I think it would be cool if it were made to be 5 man for PvE. This would be a massive QoL and give a useful utility skill/option if quickness was low in a 5 man group for instanced content. Also yes I do realize haste is a 'trick' meaning the cooldown can be lowered via trickster in trickery. However with this being said, I think that would be great to have another support utility option as a QoL. It would also lead to more build diversity. For instance quite often bountiful theft is taken over pressure striking as a small DPS loss when boonrip is needed. Both bountiful theft and pressure striking are the other to options beside trickster. Anyhow one can dream lol. I wish for a time when thief isn't looked down on in PvE. This is for reference.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hastehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trickeryhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Thefthttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tricksterhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pressure_Striking i think i missed this in discord and, lazily, ill look at it eventually xD. there are a bunch of underutilized utility skills and traits...hell even weaponsets/attacks that need to be adjusted to fit the new expectations of "who can?" to "who cant? while reviewing @MightyTeapot.2093 video about how much mechanist can be flexible, among others, it really hit home...I couldn't put it into works but he nailed it...why must we be able to fulfill 1 role or 2 (looking at condi alac) and still lack whereas others can do much much more with the flexibility to feel useful and adapt?...is it lack of funding? is it lack of people on the thief? do they even thief?! I don't know where or when we will get the attention (thief) we need to feel epic...like were actually forging a story of our own within Guild Wars 2 Universe but right now i feel as if its only great for roaming or specific dps roles...so much potential flexibility can be done with thief, even group wise...and Unrelenting Strikes is a great start...lets do more...more than that. I suggested venoms debuf enemies and buff allies with boons opposite of the effect that they applied on enemies...make...it...happen linda 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 I don't think it's a great idea to have shared quickness/alacrity on core professions. Limiting the ability to share those boons to elite specs is the "better" way to balance out their output. On another hand, I'm fully aware that this mindset of mine is kind of unfair toward core professions. However, as long as core professions don't have a traitline that only belong to them, I do believe that it's a necessary thing to do. If you look at it, core warrior suffer from it's ability to share quickness and core mesmer had it's ability nerfed so hard that one can wonder if he still can share quickness while revenant simply lost the ability to share alacrity... Only core guardian and ranger still retain a good a decent way to share quickness, but it's guardian and, well... Ranger's spirits are what they are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikijinX.6258 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said: I don't think it's a great idea to have shared quickness/alacrity on core professions. Limiting the ability to share those boons to elite specs is the "better" way to balance out their output. On another hand, I'm fully aware that this mindset of mine is kind of unfair toward core professions. However, as long as core professions don't have a traitline that only belong to them, I do believe that it's a necessary thing to do. If you look at it, core warrior suffer from it's ability to share quickness and core mesmer had it's ability nerfed so hard that one can wonder if he still can share quickness while revenant simply lost the ability to share alacrity... Only core guardian and ranger still retain a good a decent way to share quickness, but it's guardian and, well... Ranger's spirits are what they are. Thematically Thief taking quickness and sharing it among his group makes sense. A Thief is a Thief. Robin Hood was objectively a Thief but shared his bounties with the less fortunate. But anyway, I suggest that Haste become an “Equip”. And when you press haste it doesn’t automatically pop off and activate until you actually hit something. The equip duration can be for 30s and a little ui icon can appear showing the user that your haste is equipped and ready to go on encounter. This way it gives you the power and control over haste. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asur.9178 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 (edited) Let's face it: thief utilities are mostly garbage; but so are most classes' utilities. The number of unused utilities and traits are a joke. You'd imagine that a balance team does their job properly and tries to bring unused and bad skills/traits up to par with the heavily used ones, instead of only ever touching meta builds to nerf/adjust them, but nope...that requires knowledge and understanding of a class' issues (good and bad) to do that. I expect nothing relevant from today's Balance Philosophy stream and the November patch...but I do envy those with a tank full of hopium. Edited October 28, 2022 by Asur.9178 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithril Ashwalker.6230 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said: I don't think it's a great idea to have shared quickness/alacrity on core professions. Limiting the ability to share those boons to elite specs is the "better" way to balance out their output. On another hand, I'm fully aware that this mindset of mine is kind of unfair toward core professions. However, as long as core professions don't have a traitline that only belong to them, I do believe that it's a necessary thing to do. If you look at it, core warrior suffer from it's ability to share quickness and core mesmer had it's ability nerfed so hard that one can wonder if he still can share quickness while revenant simply lost the ability to share alacrity... Only core guardian and ranger still retain a good a decent way to share quickness, but it's guardian and, well... Ranger's spirits are what they are. see i suggested this too. each profession + elite spec should provide a HARD "endgame boon" like quickness/alacrity among the bells and whistle like might and fury -daredevil would be quickness and specter would be alacrity albeit it should be easier to apply instead of using freaking wells which take up all utility slots vs mechanist's ability to do so via teapots video. you could (and WE definitely would being an all thief guild) be able to pull stuff off like mixed or all one class for their utility alone...not the boons. Bring the utility not the class was always a saying before the classes got changed hard around the time of the first raid wing being released...it seems to have done a full reverse where the utility we take(primarily specter) is only wells, no ifs ands or buts which are the only way to have to faceroll to provide alacrity. we need flexibility without having to use wells unless we WANTED to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithril Ashwalker.6230 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 53 minutes ago, Asur.9178 said: Let's face it: thief utilities are mostly garbage; but so are most classes' utilities. The number of unused utilities and traits are a joke. You'd imagine that a balance team does their job properly and tries to bring unused and bad skills/traits up to par with the heavily used ones, instead of only ever touching meta builds to nerf/adjust them, but nope...that requires knowledge and understanding of a class' issues (good and bad) to do that. I expect nothing relevant from today's Balance Philosophy stream and the November patch...but I do envy those with a tank full of hopium. ahh yes the good old bandaid method. i pray for the almighty and highly reveared "MASSIVE BALANCE ACROSS THE BOARD PATCH" where they buff everything underutilized and underused as well as problematic...then bring things in tune...after that theyll continue to match skills traits weapons and abilities to match THOSE that were buffed but for different effect. Why they completely changed ricochet was beyond me, but kept trick shot and other skills that bounced the same. tear the bandaids off i say and start in a dev only client and start from the core professions up from scratch and redo them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroTheRuler.7415 Posted October 28, 2022 Author Share Posted October 28, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said: I don't think it's a great idea to have shared quickness/alacrity on core professions. Limiting the ability to share those boons to elite specs is the "better" way to balance out their output. On another hand, I'm fully aware that this mindset of mine is kind of unfair toward core professions. However, as long as core professions don't have a traitline that only belong to them, I do believe that it's a necessary thing to do. If you look at it, core warrior suffer from it's ability to share quickness and core mesmer had it's ability nerfed so hard that one can wonder if he still can share quickness while revenant simply lost the ability to share alacrity... Only core guardian and ranger still retain a good a decent way to share quickness, but it's guardian and, well... Ranger's spirits are what they are. I wish there was more build diversity like guardian on thief. The fact of the matter is most utility skills for thief are unused for PvE which isn't a great feeling. When I am playing guardian I have tons of options to fit different fights because most guardian skills aren't selfish or solely PvP/WvW based. Edited October 28, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415 clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggie.3184 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 (edited) Haste or something else will be nerfed to make the skill ally dependant like venoms if they did that. Should be an optional F skill mechanic for one of the specs for Thief to be a Quickness support. Edited October 28, 2022 by Doggie.3184 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroTheRuler.7415 Posted October 28, 2022 Author Share Posted October 28, 2022 47 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said: Haste or something else will be nerfed to make the skill ally dependant like venoms if they did that. Should be an optional F skill mechanic for one of the specs for Thief to be a Quickness support. Yeah, I guess. The equivalent of this is boon DD, however that is highly situational as detonate plasma is only for a very very limited amount of encounters. This is also another 'pain point' because of consistency, but it could be it's own topic all together haha (in a different thread). https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detonate_Plasma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlayerXX.7138 Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 On 10/28/2022 at 5:37 PM, Asur.9178 said: Let's face it: thief utilities are mostly garbage; but so are most classes' utilities. The number of unused utilities and traits are a joke. I dont know about that. As someone who played all gamemmodes and solo a little in OW there are only like 2-3 "useless" utilities on thief. Caltrops and chill venom come to mind. I sure i forgot one, but most stuff has a use somehwere i would probably miss. Scorpion wire is funny in WvW, Shadow portal is just neat all around and haste is quite nice source of selfquickness with trickery. Shadowstep is the apex for what a teleport is allowed to do. 5 man venoms were even to strong. I guess there is a lack of Power damage utilitys, but that feels kind mood when balance will make that irrelevant anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroTheRuler.7415 Posted October 31, 2022 Author Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) After the balance design philosophy document 5 man quickness can't happen as described above on haste as it would mean Alac Specter would get access to Quickness and Alac. To add to my idea it might be cool though to see something like quickness being added to haste via a profession specific trait though in say Daredevil or Deadeye like Alac is for Wells. Edited October 31, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithril Ashwalker.6230 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 4 hours ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said: After the balance design philosophy document 5 man quickness can't happen as described above on haste as it would mean Alac Specter would get access to Quickness and Alac. To add to my idea it might be cool though to see something like quickness being added to haste via a profession specific trait though in say Daredevil or Deadeye like Alac is for Wells. honestly if playing dps spec you should be able to provide quickness for yourself rather than relying strictly on others if anything that way they can provide the other necessary boons, it may prevent quickness being applied on all of the non dps classes but in the end the dps increase should be for those only doing dps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroTheRuler.7415 Posted October 31, 2022 Author Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said: honestly if playing dps spec you should be able to provide quickness for yourself rather than relying strictly on others if anything that way they can provide the other necessary boons, it may prevent quickness being applied on all of the non dps classes but in the end the dps increase should be for those only doing dps... If other classes are providing those boons in PvE what is the need to even take such a trait or utility? This is a perfect example of why Haste is pretty much never chosen in instanced PvE content (or where you have a boon provider in open world). It is a useless skill at that point. Edited October 31, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeyeti.8347 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) Sorry but that won't happen , anet stated clearly that no class should be able to provide alacrity and quickness both , while haste only give a small amount off quickness and you can't provide quickness 100% uptime on your own , remember a class who was able to provide quickness baseline : players stacked up that class and where doing optimal amazing dps , while providing quickness to each others with 0 concentration and 0 trade offs , conclusion : that class was nerfed to the ground and loosed about 33% of damage when you wanted to provide the same role. As one said above , having a core class providing alacrity or quickness to 5 people , even in small amounts , is bad design , cause you know elites spec from that class are never gonna provide the other boon , look at ranger : ranger is never gonna have a quickness sharing build , unless they remove alacrity from spirits . But yes "haste" is pretty useless skill , should need a rework : something like you attack 15% faster (cumulate with quickness) for 5sec . 6 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said: honestly if playing dps spec you should be able to provide quickness for yourself rather than relying strictly on others if anything that way they can provide the other necessary boons, it may prevent quickness being applied on all of the non dps classes but in the end the dps increase should be for those only doing dps... Don't forget that quickness is also essential for healers/supports , it's not only dps increase , it's also support increase , having your heals/boons skills launching 50% faster is a big deal. Edited October 31, 2022 by zeyeti.8347 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroTheRuler.7415 Posted October 31, 2022 Author Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said: Sorry but that won't happen , anet stated clearly that no class should be able to provide alacrity and quickness both , while haste only give a small amount off quickness and you can't provide quickness 100% uptime on your own , remember a class who was able to provide quickness baseline : players stacked up that class and where doing optimal amazing dps , while providing quickness to each others with 0 concentration and 0 trade offs , conclusion : that class was nerfed to the ground and loosed about 33% of damage when you wanted to provide the same role. As one said above , having a core class providing alacrity or quickness to 5 people , even in small amounts , is bad design , cause you know elites spec from that class are never gonna provide the other boon , look at ranger : ranger is never gonna have a quickness sharing build , unless they remove alacrity from spirits . But yes "haste" is pretty useless skill , should need a rework : something like you attack 15% faster (cumulate with quickness) for 5sec . Don't forget that quickness is also essential for healers/supports , it's not only dps increase , it's also support increase , having your heals/boons skills launching 50% faster is a big deal. You clearly have not read the whole thread. I stated the below after the stream. Also not to mention the fact they said 'role' and not 'class'. If a daredevil or deadeye trait enhanced a skill like haste perhaps the idea is still workable since it would be separated from Specter. 11 hours ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said: After the balance design philosophy document 5 man quickness can't happen as described above on haste as it would mean Alac Specter would get access to Quickness and Alac. To add to my idea it might be cool though to see something like quickness being added to haste via a profession specific trait though in say Daredevil or Deadeye like Alac is for Wells. Edited October 31, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeyeti.8347 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 1 minute ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said: You clearly have not read the whole thread. I stated the below after the stream. Also not to mention the fact they said 'role' and not 'class'. If a daredevil or deadeye trait enhanced a skill like haste perhaps the idea is still workable since it would be separated from Specter. yes , sorry indeed didnt read all the topic , but making another traits working with another trait from another traitline sounds a bit weird , maybe it's just me , but then they should simply add a trait that give quickness ... let's say whenever you dodge on deadeye , instead of bending two traits together , wasting a trait uses for something else , and again sorry i readed your second statement and i know now my first paragraphe was pretty useless 😁. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroTheRuler.7415 Posted October 31, 2022 Author Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said: yes , sorry indeed didnt read all the topic , but making another traits working with another trait from another traitline sounds a bit weird , maybe it's just me , but then they should simply add a trait that give quickness ... let's say whenever you dodge on deadeye , instead of bending two traits together , wasting a trait uses for something else , and again sorry i readed your second statement and i know now my first paragraphe was pretty useless 😁. It's alright haha. I am hopeful that things like this get looked at in future balance updates. I do realize it is a harder sell after the design document came out, but its still fun to think on things like this. Edited October 31, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeyeti.8347 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 Hope too , thief is one of the less played class in endgame , only sees sometimes specter , or deadeye on kite qadim 1 or pilar for qadim 2 , almost like anet designed those two bosses for this e-specs so we are happy we can play it efficiently ... but thats really not enough , i hope a redesign for specter alacrity with more uptime on alac , and not be jailed to use 3 wells off cd for alac uptime (bad design when you have a well granting stab...) , deadeye or daredevil sharing quickness with a good dps should be really fun to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroTheRuler.7415 Posted November 1, 2022 Author Share Posted November 1, 2022 11 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said: Hope too , thief is one of the less played class in endgame , only sees sometimes specter , or deadeye on kite qadim 1 or pilar for qadim 2 , almost like anet designed those two bosses for this e-specs so we are happy we can play it efficiently ... but thats really not enough , i hope a redesign for specter alacrity with more uptime on alac , and not be jailed to use 3 wells off cd for alac uptime (bad design when you have a well granting stab...) , deadeye or daredevil sharing quickness with a good dps should be really fun to play. I completely agree. I still try to make things work in endgame content. If I am not on my thief I am on my guardian filling quickness or heal quickness. On a side note I actually tried cVert in raids with almost no practice the other day and was getting 27k dps on MO (for a new character I just made). It is insanely easy.... much easier than thief I can tell you that lol. I really enjoyed it. I also agree with Alac Specter being jailed to at least 3 wells. It is another pain point with that build. I might make another post about it later, but mighty teapot already made a video on it. I think it is titled "Boon Imbalance". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggie.3184 Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 (edited) On 10/29/2022 at 3:12 PM, Albi.7250 said: I dont know about that. As someone who played all gamemmodes and solo a little in OW there are only like 2-3 "useless" utilities on thief. Caltrops and chill venom come to mind. I sure i forgot one, but most stuff has a use somehwere i would probably miss. Scorpion wire is funny in WvW, Shadow portal is just neat all around and haste is quite nice source of selfquickness with trickery. Shadowstep is the apex for what a teleport is allowed to do. 5 man venoms were even to strong. I guess there is a lack of Power damage utilitys, but that feels kind mood when balance will make that irrelevant anyway. Scorpion Wire still fails so often while Guardian Pull feels like it has 1000% accuracy. I don't understand it really XD So many times it's devoured by thin air, breaks in middle of pull, gets mini-sidestepped, etc. I also wish they'd scrap the whole arming time of "traps"~ I feel like nerfing them from being trapper-rune-useable (one of the many times Anet deletes entire Thief builds) is enough than to annoy us with the extra pickyness of arming time. They're just really unfun in PvE and all DPS builds are basically forced to use them it seems. If they want they can keep the arming time in Spvp cuz at least it has some value blocking points I guess?~ I still wouldn't use them. Just please remove it in PvE and WvW. Edited November 2, 2022 by Doggie.3184 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlayerXX.7138 Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 2 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said: Scorpion Wire still fails so often while Guardian Pull feels like it has 1000% accuracy Which one? 2 of the 3 guardian pulls are secondary effect to other abilities you need to get hit first, so yeah they are indeed 100% accurate, after you were getting hit it by the actual ability. Wire has average to low speed, but the bigger problem hitting it is the buggy WvW map itself. I guess you could buff the velocity, but otherwise the skill is fine. Its a pull on a utility with ammo and short recharge. 2 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said: I also wish they'd scrap the whole arming time of "traps"~ I feel like nerfing them from being trapper-rune-useable (one of the many times Anet deletes entire Thief builds) is enough than to annoy us with the extra pickyness of arming time. Meh. That is a somewhat minor inconvenience. I'm not a fan of killing any flavor an ability has for a minor buff in Endgame content. If you don't like it, I would lobby for are caltrop buff, in the form of removing the cast time of caltrops coupled with a small damage buff. Because it make no sense to take an eternity to drop them. Look I also want buff like everyone else. But lobbying for 5 man haste on core or over complaining over our decent utility selection seems like a waste of time. Its kind of silly when every profession forum is meta winning about each perceived disadvantage we may have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said: Scorpion Wire still fails so often while Guardian Pull feels like it has 1000% accuracy. I don't understand it really XD So many times it's devoured by thin air, breaks in middle of pull, gets mini-sidestepped, etc. I also wish they'd scrap the whole arming time of "traps"~ I feel like nerfing them from being trapper-rune-useable (one of the many times Anet deletes entire Thief builds) is enough than to annoy us with the extra pickyness of arming time. They're just really unfun in PvE and all DPS builds are basically forced to use them it seems. If they want they can keep the arming time in Spvp cuz at least it has some value blocking points I guess?~ I still wouldn't use them. Just please remove it in PvE and WvW. If you can feel out surrounding topography so you can kind of ping to yourself what might cause line of sight issues or terrain blockage, adding just the slightest pullback when I feel like it's right about at the moment of connecting seemed to be more consistent. I kept that snap back, kind of like flyfishing I guess, tight for up close interrupts and then take a little longer to pull back and angling camera to maybe give the pulled portion a higher arch (mostly pulling people off of walls). Most likely all of that is in my head as what I think is going on but WvW maps make your muscle memory try to figure stuff out and that's where I'm at with Scorpion Wire. It is a janky skill though and it's always going to be hit or miss, but I might almost be worried that if it were brought up to par with other pull skills, it could lose it's off-brand like improvisational charm. Edited November 2, 2022 by kash.9213 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraOrpheo.8450 Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 If your objective is to maintain 5 man boon, a long cooldown skill shouldn't be your means Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggie.3184 Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Albi.7250 said: Which one? The thrown portion of Spear of Justice. I've never seen it fail to pull mid-way either. The mechanics just feel way more solid than whatever Wire uses. Also they already killed the flavor of Thief "traps" so that statement doesn't stand well. The new flavor is lacking fun and could be better. Edited November 2, 2022 by Doggie.3184 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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