Non-zerg WvW Feedback

[Sviel.7493]

In the balance philosophy stream earlier, WvW was very briefly mentioned.  Per their slides, WvW consists of support and damage dealing roles, though Roy did mention that there is more to WvW than zergfights and said they also look out for that.  It was...less than convincing.  However, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and help them develop a more robust WvW strategy.

 

Obviously, I can't do this alone as my WvW experience is not representative of all people.  I'll mention a few things that are important to me but I will definitely miss plenty that may be important to you.

 

...

 

Some years back, Ghost Thieves were abundant in WvW.  They had permastealth and would apply damaging conditions to kill NPCs and players who weren't specced for much cleansing.  It was very difficult to interact with them, much less kill them.  They weren't an issue in PvE because their DPS was low and weren't an issue in PvP because they couldn't contest points or duel.  In WvW, however, they could take any camp unless you sat in the ring cycling cleanses until they fell asleep.  This went on for years.

 

Then, one day, someone soloed a raid boss or something on this build.  Within 48 hours, it was hot fixed out of existence.

 

I can't know if Anet thought Ghost Thieves fit their design philosophy back then or if they just weren't watching or didn't care, but I do wonder if they plan to address stealth in WvW today.  If players can exit fights freely and reset, defenders are forced to camp rings non-stop.  Thus, stealth should be a more expensive part of a class's power budget in WvW as it allows for much greater effectiveness than in other modes.  This crops up in other areas too like when the two stealth/portal classes hole up in a keep.  The tools we have to attempt to deal with this are woefully insufficient.

 

For another long-standing issue, what are Anet's thoughts concerning certain stat combinations in WvW?  Dire has been a consistent issue since its introduction.  It was removed from PvP but remains in WvW because...?  Granted, it isn't great in zerg fights, but it's very hard to lose a camp duel in that gear.  In a similar vein, defensive hybrid gear in general is probably too strong in WvW.  Damage just doesn't stick in some fights leading to long, boring stalemates.

 

I don't know if they do siege stuff, so I won't go into that.  I don't know who is responsible for the WvW part of WvW rather than just zerg fights.  It doesn't seem to be these guys.

 

 

[Xenesis.6389]

For the people that missed it, including me.

This alone...

Quote

World vs. World (WvW)

WvW group compositions have a similar makeup to PvE group compositions, with a focus on damage dealers to deal damage and support characters to defend them. Stability is always in high demand and is essentially a requirement for every group.

Support

Support is a broad term, and there are a variety of distinct tools that can be the focus of a support build in WvW, including healing, condition removal, boons, crowd control, and other general utility tools. Most support builds bring more than one tool to the table, but it's important that a single build can't excel at too many things.

Damage Dealer

These are builds that primarily exist to deal damage, but they also commonly bring additional pressure tools such as boon removal or crowd control. As fights get larger, area-of-effect damage becomes more important and single-target pressure loses some of its value.

Quote

Player vs Player (PvP)

Over the years, we've seen metagames dominated by both team fight compositions built around the support role, and more split compositions built around bruisers or mobility. Ideally, we'd like to get to a state where multiple styles of team compositions are viable.

Support

This role empowers and defends allies. They are most valuable in larger fights where their lack of damage is made up for by other teammates. Most supports are good healers and have access to group condition cleansing, but beyond that, they may specialize more in defense (defensive boons, healing, and cleansing), offense (offensive boons, crowd control, and personal damage), or a mix of both.

Team Fight Damage Dealer

These are damage builds that typically sacrifice some defensive options for more offense, with the assumption that they will usually be fighting alongside a support role. Their defensive tools are more often focused on hard mitigation, with minimal self-sustain.

Bruiser

These are bulkier damage dealers who trade some damage for more self-survivability and crowd control. They are generally good team fighters, but they can also flex on to the sidenode in some matchups.

Roamer

This is commonly a bursty damage dealer with high mobility. They look to capitalize on number-based advantages and end fights quickly. They have some defensive capabilities but are usually unable to stay in drawn-out fights.

Sidenode

The duelist. They're most effective in 1v1s and smaller fights but can sometimes flex into team fights.

Should tell you how in tuned they are with wvw. Two roles in wvw, five roles in pvp. So you guys that have been saying wvw is only for large blob fights, apparently you're right! and now we know where anet gets their advice. Enjoy your boon balling, and if you want to roam and balance for it.... go back to spvp! 🤭

Edited October 28, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[kash.9213]

29 minutes ago, Sviel.7493 said:

In the balance philosophy stream earlier, WvW was very briefly mentioned.  Per their slides, WvW consists of support and damage dealing roles, though Roy did mention that there is more to WvW than zergfights and said they also look out for that.  It was...less than convincing.  However, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and help them develop a more robust WvW strategy.

 

Obviously, I can't do this alone as my WvW experience is not representative of all people.  I'll mention a few things that are important to me but I will definitely miss plenty that may be important to you.

 

...

 

Some years back, Ghost Thieves were abundant in WvW.  They had permastealth and would apply damaging conditions to kill NPCs and players who weren't specced for much cleansing.  It was very difficult to interact with them, much less kill them.  They weren't an issue in PvE because their DPS was low and weren't an issue in PvP because they couldn't contest points or duel.  In WvW, however, they could take any camp unless you sat in the ring cycling cleanses until they fell asleep.  This went on for years.

 

Then, one day, someone soloed a raid boss or something on this build.  Within 48 hours, it was hot fixed out of existence.

 

I can't know if Anet thought Ghost Thieves fit their design philosophy back then or if they just weren't watching or didn't care, but I do wonder if they plan to address stealth in WvW today.  If players can exit fights freely and reset, defenders are forced to camp rings non-stop.  Thus, stealth should be a more expensive part of a class's power budget in WvW as it allows for much greater effectiveness than in other modes.  This crops up in other areas too like when the two stealth/portal classes hole up in a keep.  The tools we have to attempt to deal with this are woefully insufficient.

 

For another long-standing issue, what are Anet's thoughts concerning certain stat combinations in WvW?  Dire has been a consistent issue since its introduction.  It was removed from PvP but remains in WvW because...?  Granted, it isn't great in zerg fights, but it's very hard to lose a camp duel in that gear.  In a similar vein, defensive hybrid gear in general is probably too strong in WvW.  Damage just doesn't stick in some fights leading to long, boring stalemates.

 

I don't know if they do siege stuff, so I won't go into that.  I don't know who is responsible for the WvW part of WvW rather than just zerg fights.  It doesn't seem to be these guys.

If Stealth would have to be a more expensive part of our power budget, I look forward to that sweet, appropriate, and on scale payout for a successful Stealth Attack. I'd also imagine that a Stealth mode that can't be maintained reliably or respond to the consistency of your opponent's power would offer longer durations again to be able to keep up with other classes. 

I use stealth sparingly on other builds but my Specter uses it pretty much only when providing group barrier. I would hope your changes wouldn't hamper my group support. 

[subversiontwo.7501]

50 minutes ago, Sviel.7493 said:

Per their slides, WvW consists of support and damage dealing roles, though Roy did mention that there is more to WvW than zergfights and said they also look out for that.  It was...less than convincing.

I actually felt that it was a bit reassuring. I would have been far more sceptical if they had outlined 4-5 roles, typical for a large-scale meta. Two is vague enough to include more unspoken nuance. Not just because of what that had suggested about smaller-scale stuff, but also because that kind of dumbing down to fit a mould (which may be useful for PvE) is not necessarily what people who public tag may want either. The meta for pickups is about simplicity but the people who shape or lead it tend to want more complexity to be available. As in the good old quip about WvW's meta being at its best and most inclusive when we had three typical types of parties (in late vanilla: with distinct melee, range and focus parties - which included the classes often overlooked at larger scale) rather than just one - even if the pickup meta back then could be simplified as much as now.

Edited October 28, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Sviel.7493]

24 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

If Stealth would have to be a more expensive part of our power budget, I look forward to that sweet, appropriate, and on scale payout for a successful Stealth Attack. I'd also imagine that a Stealth mode that can't be maintained reliably or respond to the consistency of your opponent's power would offer longer durations again to be able to keep up with other classes. 

I use stealth sparingly on other builds but my Specter uses it pretty much only when providing group barrier. I would hope your changes wouldn't hamper my group support. 

I don't have specific changes in mind and am by no means qualified to do that.  As usual, it's easier to see problems than to fix them.

[smiiirf.3201]

Sooo the next Stealth OP thread. Is the thief even allowed to still be good in a mode?

 

Ingame it has several hardcounters against thief Stealth. Ranged Attacks with channeling, AoE, Traps, Reveal Skills, Sentries and Watchtowers and CC. DH, Souldbeast, Engi and Well played Harbingers can eat thief pretty hard. Condi Mesmer also is a hard brick when played well. The only class which is indeed eaten by thief is the warrior.

 

The real problem is -> Many thief players who still play the class today are usually the stronger players, because the class is definitely on high density level and that on every build there is for thieves (many new thief players give up because too hard) .These players have simply learned to play their class, which is often not the case with Rangers who just run through the mode with Pew Pew (unfortunately often the case). Those players also often do not know how the thief works and that is the main problem. Go look the recent video of Yama how he smash a S/D thief with reaper. How could he do this? Simply because he know what the thief does and where he need too put the fields and when he must burst the thief.

 

In addition, Shadow Arts was just recently reworked and from my point of view, the thief is now quite well balanced and in the best spot he ever was (Balancewise). The Deadeye is still very annoying yes (and bounce Daredevils) , I agree, but permastealth and stealth camping doesn't really exist anymore, at least not when the thief plays offensively. But the claim that only the thief does this is a flat out a lie. Other classes also have their blocks, invul, stealth, Superspeed and massive mobility and some are just as fast in the race as the thief and heroes of escape with simply running away or reset fights .

Ahh and yes thiefs are alot in camps but as compensation thief can't really fight around towers with watchtowers and in big zergfights.... he die pretty fast when focused and cced right. Good deal i would say. (No other classes has counters in forms of Structures or NPCS!)

 

That is simply the role which the thief plays -> Roamer and yes they are in need of mobility, stealth, blocks etc. because they are squishy and in the case of the thief, he has no real healing, boons or whatever. To kill Stealth would  steal his idenity.

Would stealth gone that means the thief would need even more access to mobility or something else and i can say that then alot peoples would come again and complain about it. This class is a selfish 1 target class, it is his identity.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Leolas.6273

[Xenesis.6389]

19 minutes ago, Leolas.6273 said:

Sooo the next Stealth OP thread. Is the thief even allowed to still be good in a mode?

Since apparently roamers only exist in spvp, you're allowed to be good there, according to anet.

🤭

[Aeolus.3615]

@Sviel.7493 for what i have been told theres more classes nowadays soloing bossess xD and their are not being touched.

 

The secret of a good thief nowadays is don't let enemy know u are there 😛 be a ninja  and a  master baiter.

[kash.9213]

16 hours ago, Sviel.7493 said:

I don't have specific changes in mind and am by no means qualified to do that.  As usual, it's easier to see problems than to fix them.

It's a fair point to bring up, it was just kind of broad. I'd have fun with a more clutch moment Stealth system also but I still like our combination of actions.

Stat combinations can hit some frustrating thresholds and can make some problematic aspects more potent, but we have a broad spectrum of players who need to stay in fights.

[Riba.3271]

Hey 👋 This is all because changes Anet implemented around HoT. Roy did play game on Piken back then, so he should be aware that the game has changed, not sure why he is not. Perhaps he just forgot that WvW used to play out completely differently.

 

Non-zerg scales of WvW died ☠️because:

 

• Claim buff (Biggest offender): Naturally killed competitive scenes (Roaming, Dueling, Top guilds) since 13% damage and 20% ((friendly vs enemy buff) survivability swings NEAR any objective with no siege involved just decide fights at that level
• Massive reduction in upgrade times and increase in supply: Obviously smaller groups have more trouble with T2 and T3 keeps and castles filled with supply.
• Wall/Gate HP nerf, Shield gens and siege vs siege damage reduction: Shield gens block all siege, meaning larger attacking groups are unstoppable from getting in. You can't even buy much time compared to before. Walls/Gates have less hp thus you have less time to wait for reinforcements as well.  Siege does less damage to siege now so you also take longer to deal with attackers
• EWPs, Packed Dolyaks, Dolyak Escort buff: Well Dolyak escort buff is a great example where defender always wins. Their dolyak has 90% damage reduction so you can't snipe it anymore and it is unlikely you can kill the minstrel player either. So if defenders have 2 players, they can stop any roamer from taking anything. Packed dolyaks are just superior speedy dolyaks since you can also speed them up and they count as 2 towards upgrade. Emergency waypoint/Dragon Banner after spending 15 minutes to get inside somewhere with limited supply of smaller group, is guaranteed ragequit from the game.
• Minstrel stats: Well Minstrel is just dominant and not fun to play against. New cele is also similar big offender.
• Gliding in combat: Obviously if you lose a fight or misposition, you should die. High grounds should also be viable spots for attacker to kill enemies. Especially roamer fights within keeps or high spots should be more cutthroat and outskilling attackers should be rewarded with more kills

 

Solutions ☑️

1. Rework claim buff in following matter (all stats and movement speed removed, +5 supply and Magic find stay):
   1. 10% (20% with Presence of Keep PoK) extra wall/gate HP
   2. 15% (30% with PoK) increased siege damage to siege,
   3. 15% (30% with PoK) out of combat movement speed
   4. 10% (20% with PoK) reduced supply costs to siege,
   5.  10% (20% with PoK) reduced tactivator cooldowns.
2. Rework shield gens so you can only place 1 in 900 radius and the abilities occur in radius around shield generator rather than being placed. Make shield gen 1 ability apply aegis in radius (5s cooldown) and shield gen 2 have a shockwave that knocks down enemies for 2s (can jump over or dodge through) (10s cooldown).
3. Increase dolyaks required to upgrade keeps by 100% and castles by 200%. Reduce amount of supply dolyaks carry by 10.
4. Packed dolyaks shouldn't count for 2 towards upgrade and instead carry 3x supply. Dolyak escort buff should be reduced to 50%. Dragon banner should only last 3 minutes, instead of 15. EWP 15 seconds instead of 30.
5. Concentration stat should be nerfed from 1% boon duration per 15 concentration to 1% per 21
6. Gliding shouldn't be available in combat

Edited October 29, 2022 by Riba.3271

[Strider Pj.2193]

23 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Hey 👋 This is all because changes Anet implemented around HoT. Roy did play game on Piken back then, so he should be aware that the game has changed, not sure why he is not. Perhaps he just forgot that WvW used to play out completely differently.

 

Non-zerg scales of WvW died ☠️because:

 

• Claim buff (Biggest offender): Naturally killed competitive scenes (Roaming, Dueling, Top guilds) since 13% damage and 20% ((friendly vs enemy buff) survivability swings NEAR any objective with no siege involved just decide fights at that level
• Massive reduction in upgrade times and increase in supply: Obviously smaller groups have more trouble with T2 and T3 keeps and castles filled with supply.
• Wall/Gate HP nerf, Shield gens and siege vs siege damage reduction: Shield gens block all siege, meaning larger attacking groups are unstoppable from getting in. You can't even buy much time compared to before. Walls/Gates have less hp thus you have less time to wait for reinforcements as well.  Siege does less damage to siege now so you also take longer to deal with attackers
• EWPs, Packed Dolyaks, Dolyak Escort buff: Well Dolyak escort buff is a great example where defender always wins. Their dolyak has 90% damage reduction so you can't snipe it anymore and it is unlikely you can kill the minstrel player either. So if defenders have 2 players, they can stop any roamer from taking anything. Packed dolyaks are just superior speedy dolyaks since you can also speed them up and they count as 2 towards upgrade. Emergency waypoint/Dragon Banner after spending 15 minutes to get inside somewhere with limited supply of smaller group, is guaranteed ragequit from the game.
• Minstrel stats: Well Minstrel is just dominant and not fun to play against. New cele is also similar big offender.
• Gliding in combat: Obviously if you lose a fight or misposition, you should die. High grounds should also be viable spots for attacker to kill enemies. Especially roamer fights within keeps or high spots should be more cutthroat and outskilling attackers should be rewarded with more kills

 

Solutions ☑️

1. Rework claim buff in following matter (all stats and movement speed removed, +5 supply and Magic find stay):
   1. 10% (20% with Presence of Keep PoK) extra wall/gate HP
   2. 15% (30% with PoK) increased siege damage to siege,
   3. 15% (30% with PoK) out of combat movement speed
   4. 10% (20% with PoK) reduced supply costs to siege,
   5.  10% (20% with PoK) reduced tactivator cooldowns.
2. Rework shield gens so you can only place 1 in 900 radius and the abilities occur in radius around shield generator rather than being placed. Make shield gen 1 ability apply aegis in radius (5s cooldown) and shield gen 2 have a shockwave that knocks down enemies for 2s (can jump over or dodge through) (10s cooldown).
3. Increase dolyaks required to upgrade keeps by 100% and castles by 200%. Reduce amount of supply dolyaks carry by 10.
4. Packed dolyaks shouldn't count for 2 towards upgrade and instead carry 3x supply. Dolyak escort buff should be reduced to 50%. Dragon banner should only last 3 minutes, instead of 15. EWP 15 seconds instead of 30.
5. Concentration stat should be nerfed from 1% boon duration per 15 concentration to 1% per 21
6. Gliding shouldn't be available in combat

 

[Sviel.7493]

@Riba.3271 I definitely like the idea of swapping claim bonuses to non-PvP things.  The stat buffs are only useful in defense if you already have a zerg...which is just not the life I live.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

outside of the claim stat buffs, non of these points is really relevant

 

the bad balance kills the game/mode now. anet drove the Wvw-car with full speed against a wall, unlucky