Making Discipline Non Mandatory, But Still Desirable.

[Zuko.7132]

Why do we take discipline? There are a lot of good traits, certainly, but it comes down to fast hands and adrenaline gain. Adrenaline gain can be found to some degree in other trait lines, especially with the new defense rework, but fast hands has no equivalent. 
 

As such, in order to not make discipline mandatory, adrenaline gain needs to be improved in a few trait lines, and fast hands must be baseline. At the same time, we want to keep Discipline as a desirable trait line. Here are some proposed changes to do just that.

 

Strength

Strength lacks any adrenaline gain. At the same time, there is a glaring issue in that Peak Performance is vastly superior to its alternatives. To fix this, I suggest changing brave stride and restorative strength. Reduce the stability on brave stride to 1 sec and remove the ice. Add movement skills grant 3 adrenaline. Add gain 2 adrenaline when you gain might to Restorative Strength with a 5 sec cd.

 

Arms

Arms is a mess but it has a few adrenaline traits. If the traitline is reworked so that it’s actually good and the adrenaline traits work for both power and condi, we should be fine.

 

Defense

Defense recently got some adrenaline generation from the cc trait and it has cleansing ire. Make the shield trait not suck. 5 adrenaline per block might make it actually compete with the weakness trait. Also throw adrenaline on dogged march or better yet rework it.

Tactics

I’d make Marching Orders give 5 adrenaline when you gain soldiers focus.

 

Discipline

 

With fast hands now baseline, I would make the trait give 1.5 seconds of super speed on weapon swap. I would then change Heightened focus to improve all weapon swap minor traits. 8 adrenaline, 3 seconds of superspeed, and 4 might.

 

What do you guys think?

[Potato Slayer.3107]

I think fast hands baseline would improve the flow of warrior, but I would like to see reduce recharge on burst or weapon skills on weapon swap, ensuring skills are up when you swap to that weapon.

[Zuko.7132]

1 minute ago, Potato Slayer.3107 said:

I think fast hands baseline would improve the flow of warrior, but I would like to see reduce recharge on burst or weapon skills on weapon swap, ensuring skills are up when you swap to that weapon.

There already is a burst cooldown trait in discipline. It would be odd to have two. Maybe weapons skills though, but I would rather have super speed. War struggles with being kited.

[Jzaku.9765]

I am SO glad that someone else has identified this strange Adrenaline deficit in baseline Warrior. Adrenaline gain should NOT be a GM trait tax to even get our profession mechanic to work as intended! I made a thread about this exact situation last YEAR:

Anyway, I fully support having small amounts of adrenaline gain available in all traitlines! If anything, I think you are far too conservative with these suggestions - Versatile Rage is a Minor trait in Discipline and thus merely taking the traitline at all contributes to your Adrenaline generation, so equivalent traits in other traitlines should also be rolled into the Minor traits. 

[DKRathalos.9625]

7 hours ago, Zuko.7132 said:

Why do we take discipline? There are a lot of good traits, certainly, but it comes down to fast hands and adrenaline gain. Adrenaline gain can be found to some degree in other trait lines, especially with the new defense rework, but fast hands has no equivalent. 
 

As such, in order to not make discipline mandatory, adrenaline gain needs to be improved in a few trait lines, and fast hands must be baseline. At the same time, we want to keep Discipline as a desirable trait line. Here are some proposed changes to do just that.

 

Discipline

 

With fast hands now baseline, I would make the trait give 1.5 seconds of super speed on weapon swap. I would then change Heightened focus to improve all weapon swap minor traits. 8 adrenaline, 3 seconds of superspeed, and 4 might.

 

What do you guys think?

If you really think Fast hand is the only thing why we forced to disc then you kind of wrong.

Anet has been pushing dual Axe to be our main weapon when we doing power spec and you know what is in the Disc? AXE mastery which grants 240 ferocity, CDR, and adrenaline, do you really think you can leave disc and not using axe mastery? that's a really big DPS lost.

What about condi? well the ranged weapon traitline still in disc, that gives CDR and extra apply burning for the Longbow. Plus the Disc minor grandmaster trait give passive reduction to the burst cooldown which benefit the condi because the playstyle is you throw burst a lot.

[Zekent.3652]

Easy, just make Fast Hands and Versatile Power baseline, replace it with something else, and put chains removal on more mobility skills like other classes does.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Easy, just make Fast Hands and Versatile Power baseline, replace it with something else, and put chains removal on more mobility skills like other classes does.

1) They are starting to move away from CDR traits, so I expect Versatile Power to lose it's Burst CDR at some point.

2) IF Cleansing Ire were on USE, then that would easily replace the cleansing aspect of Discipline.

3) Fast Hands should become baseline anyway. Warrior doesn't have a lot of things special about it and that is a problem.

[Zuko.7132]

5 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

If you really think Fast hand is the only thing why we forced to disc then you kind of wrong.

Anet has been pushing dual Axe to be our main weapon when we doing power spec and you know what is in the Disc? AXE mastery which grants 240 ferocity, CDR, and adrenaline, do you really think you can leave disc and not using axe mastery? that's a really big DPS lost.

What about condi? well the ranged weapon traitline still in disc, that gives CDR and extra apply burning for the Longbow. Plus the Disc minor grandmaster trait give passive reduction to the burst cooldown which benefit the condi because the playstyle is you throw burst a lot.

I should have put this is coming from a pvp perspective. I don't have much experience with pve.

[Zuko.7132]

7 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I am SO glad that someone else has identified this strange Adrenaline deficit in baseline Warrior. Adrenaline gain should NOT be a GM trait tax to even get our profession mechanic to work as intended! I made a thread about this exact situation last YEAR:

Anyway, I fully support having small amounts of adrenaline gain available in all traitlines! If anything, I think you are far too conservative with these suggestions - Versatile Rage is a Minor trait in Discipline and thus merely taking the traitline at all contributes to your Adrenaline generation, so equivalent traits in other traitlines should also be rolled into the Minor traits. 

That's a fair point. Strength could grant adrenaline on dodge baked into minor. Arms could grant Adrenaline while having fury on minor. Tactics could do might maybe. And Defense could do on heal tick with an icd.

[Zuko.7132]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

1) They are starting to move away from CDR traits, so I expect Versatile Power to lose it's Burst CDR at some point.

2) IF Cleansing Ire were on USE, then that would easily replace the cleansing aspect of Discipline.

3) Fast Hands should become baseline anyway. Warrior doesn't have a lot of things special about it and that is a problem.

Losing burst CDR is gonna suck. If they do it, it better be in a patch where all cooldown traits are removed. I'm still bitter that they hit warrior shield trait without hitting everything else. Should either all be gone, or none gone.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

18 minutes ago, Zuko.7132 said:

Losing burst CDR is gonna suck. If they do it, it better be in a patch where all cooldown traits are removed. I'm still bitter that they hit warrior shield trait without hitting everything else. Should either all be gone, or none gone.

Well, they are moving to balance the skills in such a way that the CDR is no longer needed/justified. Things like increases a skill's abilities to justify the current CD or lowering the base CD.

I can see them doing a pass over the Bursts overall, and then deciding what the CDs should be. Even if they just remove the CDR, so long as the burst related traits are powerful enough and some become on use rather than on hit, it would be fine.

[DKRathalos.9625]

32 minutes ago, Zuko.7132 said:

I should have put this is coming from a pvp perspective. I don't have much experience with pve.

Understandable but you know Anet prioritize PvE right, sure they say PvP and WvW important but they haven't show any action which back their statement about PvP or WvW so far.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

Understandable but you know Anet prioritize PvE right, sure they say PvP and WvW important but they haven't show any action which back their statement about PvP or WvW so far.

The leaked image on Firebrand's 'preview' will definitely affect WvW.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

My thoughts on the matter, bear in mind i'm not a experienced Warrior by any means. Most of what i know is second hand and personal experience with a couple of common sense:

- Fast Hands baseline is the more sensical approach to making the flow of the class better. The REAL approach would be Anet to actively give a throughout weapons pass so we don't have them be balanced around 5 seconds cds. Warrior's best weapons are Dual Axes, and compared to other weapons like Engi's Rifles or Guardian's Sword or Axe ( or Scepter or anything really ), our weapons are EXTREMELY taxed because of Fast Hands. We have weapons with really well defined strengths and weaknesses because we are by design abusing the swap feature. So, either baseline FH, or actively rework the weapons so that Fast Hands is a addition, not a obligation. You know, like a traitline should really be.

- Adrenaline as a limiter is incredibly wonky and badly thought out. We are kinda the only class that is limited by two limiters: Cooldowns and Adrenaline. Thieves switch the limiters from CDs to initiative, we don't. We have to have both the cooldowns ready and the adrenaline charged, else you unoptimize your skill usage. It's really weird. Either remove adrenaline completely or make it the ONLY limiter we have.

I agree that the class is incredibly Adrenaline starved, and i blame that on holding Warrior to old design while other classes get better passes or their design age better. Every single traitline should have some way to regenerate Adrenaline and the decision of our traits would then put us into a flow of bank resources -> explode resources.

The more i think about it, the more i realize that Berserker is the real Warrior design: You have windows of bursts where you completely obliterate everything, then you calm yourself and restart pooling your strength again. Core Warrior worked before because the entire game was in this specific tenuous but balanced spot, but Warrior didn't survive the powercreep. Now, we have really weird elite specs completely focused in trying to make adrenaline as a mechanic work better than the weak design it has originally. And then there's the abomination called Bladesworn.

Honestly, they kinda need to go back to the drawing board with Warrior and decide the direction of the class and the design they want ( to be fair, there are several classes like that, GW2 is the MMO i've played with some of the worst class designs i've ever seen in my life, weird considering they have GW1 as a source material ), and then work from there. But that's me being too hopeful.

The expectation and more likely scenario is just hope for baseline Fast Hands and some improved/buffed bursts to make Adrenaline spenditure more satisfying and rewarding. And a small/medium weapon pass to improve the weapons we have besides Axes. I wanna use Maces, cmon Anet.

[oscuro.9720]

An idea for the strength trait line;

 

Reckless Dodge (minor adept): now grants adrenaline for completing a dodge (this would really just be bound to reckless impact, the actual skill that reckless dodge enables)

 

Pinnacle of Strength (minor GM): in addition to current effects, gaining might grants adrenaline.

That would give the strength line baseline adrenaline gain. Thoughts?

Edited November 9, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I would merge MMR into pinnacle myself. Reduce the endurance gain to one and have it also gain 1 adrenaline when gaining might.

MMR's old slot could then have a trait to do things like add movement range to movement skills and movement skills grant might, 5 stacks for 5s, with no icd.

[Opopanax.1803]

23 hours ago, Zuko.7132 said:

There already is a burst cooldown trait in discipline. It would be odd to have two. Maybe weapons skills though, but I would rather have super speed. War struggles with being kited.

Arms Grandmaster: when you swap weapons, reset the CDs on all your finishers