Mechanist is currently destroying the Raid/Strike. Please consider nerf it ASAP.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

8 hours ago, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

Arena Net have a bias for Mecha to keep buff it.
Is the Mecha supposed to be that strong ? NO.
Should any class be this strong for such a low risk? No.

 

If this is OP I don't know what's considered balanced.

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:44 AM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If this is OP I don't know what's considered balanced.

The rifle make was 25k and everyone say it op! 

And condi mecha is 38k now with super ez rotation, on a pet class (which results in higher damage uptime in actual encounters aka the difference between bench and encounter is lower)

 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

The rifle make was 25k and everyone say it op! 

And condi mecha is 38k now with super ez rotation, on a pet class (which results in higher damage uptime in actual encounters aka the difference between bench and encounter is lower)

 

By next Sunday I'd like a video of you doing 38k with that easy rotation.

[Bakeneko.5826]

47 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

By next Sunday I'd like a video of you doing 38k with that easy rotation.

Doubt there are any encounters for 5/10 people that have phases long enough to support this ramp up time without specifically stalling for dmg ramp up

Edited March 18, 2023 by Bakeneko.5826

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

The rifle make was 25k and everyone say it op! 

And condi mecha is 38k now with super ez rotation, on a pet class (which results in higher damage uptime in actual encounters aka the difference between bench and encounter is lower)

 

Tell me you only look at the number on benchmark videos without actually telling me you only look at the number in benchmark videos.

I second IAmNotMatthew.1058 request. Post a video of you actually reaching those benchmark videos (or something similar in actual encounters) and you might get taken serious.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[samsar.9152]

To be honest, I don't like the fact power rifle mechanist is somehow "outdated". Snowcrows for example do not even consider it as "meta build" anymore. :( I love to play that build and about instanced group content, I don't even care how much dps anyone does as long as encounters are going fine and we are getting our loots and having fun together. :) 

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, samsar.9152 said:

To be honest, I don't like the fact power rifle mechanist is somehow "outdated". Snowcrows for example do not even consider it as "meta build" anymore. 😞 I love to play that build and about instanced group content, I don't even care how much dps anyone does as long as encounters are going fine and we are getting our loots and having fun together. 🙂

Then play it its perfectly fine, 20-25k dps is totaly fine for all but maybe ht cm encounter.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I don't like how players have come to see this as "low" DPS, which its about twice as what's required to clear even raids. Powercreep has gone so out of control that people think they need 35k+ to clear anything, and its no wonder ArenaNet keeps buffing the damage because its all anyone cares about, and the more encounters get trivalised (by both damage and increasing levels of automation), the more players cheer? 😞

 

I would give anything for the game to return to the era when everything just wasn't a loot pinata. What little difficulty is left is quickly disappearing, and the solution can't always just be to throw a CM at it. The game needs to have some amount of difficulty throughout, not all focused in one specific type of content.

 

This didn't start with Machinist, but it was the worst example of it, and still is.

Edited March 25, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I don't like how players have come to see this as "low" DPS, which its about twice as what's required to clear even raids. Powercreep has gone so out of control that people think they need 35k+ to clear anything, and its no wonder ArenaNet keeps buffing the damage because its all anyone cares about, and the more encounters get trivalised (by both damage and increasing levels of automation), the more players cheer? 😞

 

I would give anything for the game to return to the era when everything just wasn't a loot pinata. What little difficulty is left is quickly disappearing, and the solution can't always just be to throw a CM at it. The game needs to have some amount of difficulty throughout, not all focused in one specific type of content.

 

This didn't start with Machinist, but it was the worst example of it, and still is.

I am 100% with you on this, unfortunately I think this approach is the one the developers will stick with. The skill disparity between players is still very large and an actual issue for the developers to overcome (still near impossible).

We had the: balance every class no matter its difficulty approach which especially the high end pve community hated (power mech was only 1 of those iterations, remember when elementalist was down to 0.3% representation?, remember "rotation should have no baring on output"?) which made every class with remotely a class mechanic useless because "bozo class I press 2 buttons" outperformed them. With easy enough content so that even with these insane classes there was no chance at players failing.

We are now in the "power creep all boons as much as possible" (which has shafted the competitive modes even more than before. Turns out permanent massive boons on all classes is not that great an idea for competitive if the boon denial is not at least on equal footing) while making sure that every class can reach 25-33k dps with only autoattacks with some hitting 38-40k on actual rotations. Best of both worlds, the high end crowd feels elite and accomplished, the casual players feel as though they have become more adept at the game because they are now seeing success where they previous;y failed.

At least the narrative on the forums shifted too because now that the majority succeeds at more challenging content, the entire discussions about "I want to play my way" crowd quieted down. We actually have a player base interested in bringing useful builds to group content and we actually did get some more challenging fun content in the process.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[xellink.7568]

23 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

We had the: balance every class no 

At least the narrative on the forums shifted too because now that the majority succeeds at more challenging content, the entire discussions about "I want to play my way" crowd quieted down. We actually have a player base interested in bringing useful builds to group content and we actually did get some more challenging fun content in the process.

 

We have to look at the permutations of why people fail without trying to buff what is already powerful. There are many traps in build crafting that can make or break a build.

 

I'm not sure why defense is now the ideal DPS build on warrior. 

 

Spectre heal is another trap. Some traits are clearly useless like Second Opinion. RWV doesn't have a power option but shadowstep heals are maximised with sword 2. 

 

There should be better sign posting of common errors eg big red words of 'YOU ARE ABOVE THE CRIT CAP! CONSIDER LOWERING YOUR PRECISION FOR BETTER STATS'. eg. Dragonhunter on berserkers gear because 'experts' say go berserkers on power builds.

Mechanist is one of the especs where the text and effect make sense. It's hard to go wrong. That's why it's popular. I don't understand why power mech was nerfed to the ground. 

Edited March 26, 2023 by xellink.7568

[Gendalfs.7521]

Mechanist is one of the especs where the text and effect make sense. It's hard to go wrong. That's why it's popular. I don't understand why power mech was nerfed to the ground. 

 

Bacause of all the whiners.

 

Its not that they feel Mecha boring and too easy, Its because of jealousy. They could play they more engaging class enjoy their game and bee cool with low APM class. But you know, people tend to go less resistance path (like every other thing in nature), so all started to play Mecha.

First we saw post about how its hard to play when everything on screen is filled with neon green things (lol thats really was a complain).

Then there were posts about why on earth they do such dmg with so low input (what is somehow justified when Mecha was doing over 40k)

So Mecha was nerfed and nerfed and nerfed and it still feels good to play.

 

I really like this class because traits makes sense and you can effectively choose your class role of going DPS, support or ranged DPS.

 

Then came Anet with their genius idea of introducing NEW mechanics of Mechanical Genius and breaking up rifle flow and animation.

To this day I havent found explanation of just WTF were they thinking.

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Mechanist is one of the especs where the text and effect make sense. It's hard to go wrong. That's why it's popular. I don't understand why power mech was nerfed to the ground. 

 

Bacause of all the whiners.

 

Its not that they feel Mecha boring and too easy, Its because of jealousy. They could play they more engaging class enjoy their game and bee cool with low APM class. But you know, people tend to go less resistance path (like every other thing in nature), so all started to play Mecha.

First we saw post about how its hard to play when everything on screen is filled with neon green things (lol thats really was a complain).

Then there were posts about why on earth they do such dmg with so low input (what is somehow justified when Mecha was doing over 40k)

So Mecha was nerfed and nerfed and nerfed and it still feels good to play.

 

I really like this class because traits makes sense and you can effectively choose your class role of going DPS, support or ranged DPS.

 

Then came Anet with their genius idea of introducing NEW mechanics of Mechanical Genius and breaking up rifle flow and animation.

To this day I havent found explanation of just WTF were they thinking.

I'll give you 1 simple reason: mech was taking over the entire spectrum of played classes.

It delivered top tier performance at not comparable difficulty (or lack thereof).

The issues wasn't that bad players where doing okay damage. It was that top tier players where doing great damage and where forced out of any other class choice (while the spec was bullying every single other build out of the game on every level). We had unofficial (over 40% represenation) and official numbers (over 20% and climbing) on this.

It was the most grossly overrepresented spec EVER, and that says something considering there has been busted stuff in the past.

Now you might not have taken issue with 1 elite spec among 27 being at this type of representation, the developers did. 

Power mech is in a good spot now. Great beginner class, still good dps compared difficulty wise while encouraging players to actually try to play something else if they feel like challenging themselves.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

 

We have to look at the permutations of why people fail without trying to buff what is already powerful. There are many traps in build crafting that can make or break a build.

 

I'm not sure why defense is now the ideal DPS build on warrior. 

 

Spectre heal is another trap. Some traits are clearly useless like Second Opinion. RWV doesn't have a power option but shadowstep heals are maximised with sword 2. 

 

There should be better sign posting of common errors eg big red words of 'YOU ARE ABOVE THE CRIT CAP! CONSIDER LOWERING YOUR PRECISION FOR BETTER STATS'. eg. Dragonhunter on berserkers gear because 'experts' say go berserkers on power builds.

 

If you are going to argue: we need to improve the player base skill wise while making the game simpler, you are going to run into the following issue:

 

1. no amount of improving the general player base will bridge the skill gap. 

 

2. Simplifying and dumbing down the game (which the devlopers did too) only goes so far before one of this games main strengths, it's combat and build system, give way

 

The developers took a multifacted approach. They reduced the skill level AND added a ton of power creep. Classes are shitting out boons left and right, LI builds with 3-4 apm are doing 30k+, the entire set of of new elites are as strait forward as they can be. With mech they simply took it to far initially.

 

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

Mechanist is one of the especs where the text and effect make sense. It's hard to go wrong. That's why it's popular. I don't understand why power mech was nerfed to the ground. 

Almost every single one of the new especs is braindead strait forward. Pick this trait for power damage, pick this trait for support, pick this trait for condition ddamage. 

Mech was picked because it was the easiest, most strait forward and overperforming flavor of the month class there ever was.

It still is picked a lot. It still excells. It still is a strait forward as before. It's just not as busted any more making room for other classes.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

Mechanist is one of the especs where the text and effect make sense. It's hard to go wrong. That's why it's popular. I don't understand why power mech was nerfed to the ground. 

Because it was too strong for how it was played, how is this somehow not obvious? Also it wasn't really nerfed "to the ground", it's still doing fine for how undemanding it is.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[xellink.7568]

On 3/26/2023 at 6:51 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

If you are going to argue: we need to improve the player base skill wise while making the game simpler, you are going to run into the following issue:

 

1. no amount of improving the general player base will bridge the skill gap. 

 

2. Simplifying and dumbing down the game (which the devlopers did too) only goes so far before one of this games main strengths, it's combat and build system, give way

 

Not every casual want to go hardstuck.gg or read an encyclopedia on how to play the game. Signposting is needed, and making it toggle on and off will guide players to do the right thing. As I said, crit cap is one of those. 

 

There's a lot more that can be done to bridge that gap but these signposts are not there yet. 

 

We shouldn't be talking about futility when we are still a long way from it. Eventually we will get there, but we are nowhere near.

 

On 3/26/2023 at 11:25 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

Because it was too strong for how it was played, how is this somehow not obvious? Also it wasn't really nerfed "to the ground", it's still doing fine for how undemanding it is.

 

I'm okay with all the nerfs except the last one which changed the animation and flow with the final update. That's just trying to make rifle mech less popular. I don't see how that contributes to balance. It's more of a tool to curb overrepresentation.

On 3/26/2023 at 6:30 PM, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Anet with their genius idea of introducing NEW mechanics of Mechanical Genius and breaking up rifle flow and animation.

To this day I havent found explanation of just WTF were they thinking.

 

I think this is the one where most Mecha players were put off even though it did very little. The look and feel was completely destroyed. Why would you do that to your own content.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

I'm okay with all the nerfs except the last one which changed the animation and flow with the final update. That's just trying to make rifle mech less popular. I don't see how that contributes to balance. It's more of a tool to curb overrepresentation.

The way they suddenly turned rifle aa into a machinegun was pretty dumb and I'm glad they backed out of it.

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

I think this is the one where most Mecha players were put off even though it did very little. The look and feel was completely destroyed. Why would you do that to your own content.

I still see a lot of people playing it. It's still easly viable even(?) for raids/strikes cms. If someone was drawn to that ridiculous machinegun autoattack spam while the mech was a self-maintaining dps buff standing on another side of the map/platform then I have no sympathy here. The need to keep mech relatively close makes gameplay more interesting than it was.

[Gendalfs.7521]

6 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The need to keep mech relatively close makes gameplay more interesting than it was.

Completely disagree.

 

Thats only your opinion and everyone who wants to play ranged trait ranged should do that without artifically gimping them. If I go mace I dont give a f about MG range.

 

Theres a trait that makes you keep yourself at 450 from the mob for buff, so if mech is opposite side, that means 900 distance. If Mechanical Genius had range of 900 I would say, OK its weird but I can live with it.

 

[Bakeneko.5826]

On 3/25/2023 at 8:09 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

This didn't start with Machinist, but it was the worst example of it, and still is.

Let's be honest, it started in PoF with two classes that rhymes with wiretrand and trenegade

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Completely disagree.

 

Thats only your opinion and everyone who wants to play ranged trait ranged should do that without artifically gimping them. If I go mace I dont give a f about MG range.

Completely disagree, "everyone" suddenly struggling so shard with pressing keys from time to time just wants a lazy self-playing overperforming spec. Current version makes more sense than the previous did.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

On 3/27/2023 at 12:23 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

The way they suddenly turned rifle aa into a machinegun was pretty dumb and I'm glad they backed out of it.

I still see a lot of people playing it. It's still easly viable even(?) for raids/strikes cms. If someone was drawn to that ridiculous machinegun autoattack spam while the mech was a self-maintaining dps buff standing on another side of the map/platform then I have no sympathy here. The need to keep mech relatively close makes gameplay more interesting than it was.

 

Honestly, I wish they'd have made it more a shotgun, like DOOM's super Shotgun or such.

On 3/27/2023 at 12:23 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

I still see a lot of people playing it. It's still easly viable even(?) for raids/strikes cms. If someone was drawn to that ridiculous machinegun autoattack spam while the mech was a self-maintaining dps buff standing on another side of the map/platform then I have no sympathy here. The need to keep mech relatively close makes gameplay more interesting than it was.

 

The problem with having to be near the mech for it to do things is it runs contrary to the primarily ranged play the power options for mech  and the primarily melee play the mech has for conditions while the condition weapons tend to favor pistol and other ranged options.  It also has that horrible pet AI that every ranger main from 2012 was complaining about.

[xellink.7568]

23 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Completely disagree, "everyone" suddenly struggling so shard with pressing keys from time to time just wants a lazy self-playing overperforming spec. Current version makes more sense than the previous did.

 

I'm not one of those 1111 mechas. I use the grenade kits, max out my damage. I do my due diligence. But that wasn't overpowered either. They turned Mecha into Warrior rifle except with pet. 

 

The final nerf sent my Mecha to mine rich iron nodes.

 

"I wouldn't wish mining on my worst enemy." - Braham

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

28 minutes ago, xellink.7568 said:

 

I'm not one of those 1111 mechas. I use the grenade kits, max out my damage. I do my due diligence. But that wasn't overpowered either. They turned Mecha into Warrior rifle except with pet. 

 

The final nerf sent my Mecha to mine rich iron nodes.

 

"I wouldn't wish mining on my worst enemy." - Braham

Rifle Mech iss till acceptable for general gameplay and is good enough for even Raids, atleast it can bring CC. 
Mech was extremely strong for what it could do at it's peak. Was it overnerfed? I'd say yeah. At this point you can do just as well - even better - as Vindi while also having the option for your standard selection of variety of utility Rev has. Sure you can't fight over range and you get about half the CC.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

 

I'm not one of those 1111 mechas. I use the grenade kits, max out my damage. I do my due diligence. But that wasn't overpowered either. They turned Mecha into Warrior rifle except with pet. 

 

The final nerf sent my Mecha to mine rich iron nodes.

 

"I wouldn't wish mining on my worst enemy." - Braham

 

The harsh reality here is: this isn't about you.

 

There where reasonable disucssions about how mech and especially power mech could or should be changed to maintain it's output somewhat. They where drowned by players not wanting changes or even arguing that power mech was fine (talk about not seeing the forest among trees).

 

The developers did what they decided was best to approach the issue: reduce power mechs performance while keeping it's complexity low.

 

It lost it's spot as the top tier spec and retained it's place as mid tier spec (which thanks to it's ease of use and automation still means it punches far above it's weight class when played poorly) for power while the support spec is still very strong as is the condi spec (while being harder to pull off and with less benefits of range).

Game wide representation is down and it's nice to not see only power mechs in every type of content.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[xellink.7568]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

There where reasonable disucssions about how mech and especially power mech could or should be changed to maintain it's output somewhat. They where drowned by players not wanting changes or even arguing that power mech was fine (talk about not seeing the forest among trees).

 

The developers did what they decided was best to approach the issue: reduce power mechs performance while keeping it's complexity low.

 

It lost it's spot as the top tier spec and retained it's place as mid tier spec (which thanks to it's ease of use and automation still means it punches far above it's weight class when played poorly) for power while the support spec is still very strong as is the condi spec (while being harder to pull off and with less benefits of range).

Game wide representation is down and it's nice to not see only power mechs in every type of content.

 

That was fine. It's not good enough for some CMs. Bringing condi isn't the answer. What if you fought Conjured Amalgamate. What if you fought a class that requires power. 

 

Mecha is overrepresented not because of its power but yes, the early nerfs were indicated, the final one mechanical genius and the two shots pew pew just destroyed the flow of the class. It's not even a balance patch. It's just to make Mecha less popular and we know it.

 

Gw2 at lower level content, people don't care about power anyway. It's about the look and feel, and towards the end Mecha was nerfed for it's overrepresentation and how it was everywhere, not really for the numbers. 

 

There are classes that can do well in almost all content and have easy rotations too. Like soul beast. How does Mecha balance against that?

[Cyninja.2954]

14 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

There are classes that can do well in almost all content and have easy rotations too. Like soul beast. How does Mecha balance against that?

Soulbeast is by far not that easy a rotation (compared to mech), does not have the range as power mech, is easily interupted, doesn’t have the utility as engi and doesn’t have the automation (aka passive always applied damage) from it's pet (even more so because slb is usually merged, but this applies to any ranger spec.).

You earlier said it's importent to look at all the factors when considering how to balance something. If you critically check for everything (ease of play, automation, utility, passive performance, range, etc.), you'll soon realize not a single class, even among the over represented or overpowered ones now (or ever), covers everything the way mech did (and does because HAM is still among the strongest supports).

That is not to say there isn't busted or overpowered stuff out now. There certainly is. None of it is so out of line as mech was though.

For example Virtuoso, which is among the strongest (certainly op) dps specs right now, has a far higher fall off when played poorly (complexer rotation and less passive damage) and as such does not see as much representation.

Not sure I'd agree about power mech and CMs. It's certainly strong enough to beat ever raid CM or even strike CM (even as power spec against bosses which favor condi). It's just not the top pick (but close to 2ndnif there is a lot of cleave involved) yielding that spot to virt.

TL;DR:

The way mech is designed (nearly all passive skills) and the core class it was put on (engi is about on the level of guardian when it comes to useful utility) means it will, and should, never compete for top spots for dps. Unless the developers decide to rework it somewhat to address the issues.

That's unfortunate for players who want to excel with mech, but so is the base complexity for elementalists (which where all but deleted from the game when every other class brought the same performance at far reduced difficulty, just going to show that ease of use trumps all other categories for the vast majority of players) for players who want to ele main. Class design and outset is unfair in this game.

EDIT:

and checking wingman just now for class representation in instanced content, mech overall (all builds) still holds the highest representation AFTER being nerfed multiple times (17.91%) still rivaling chrono (20.2%) and druid (15-16%) while both of these classes had the MONOPOLY on group support.

Any one on the forums proclaiming mech is unplayable (which you didn't do, your complaint is with high end power mech performance to be fair) has no grasp of any in game realities.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Cyninja.2954