Why DPS Firebrand feels awful to play - Issues and suggestions

[supporthero.4520]

Yesterday I wrote together some thoughts on reddit on why DPS Firebrand doesn't feel fun to play in instanced content right now.

I also wanted to share my thoughts on the official forums. Maybe they will read it here:

 

[Massimoni.9453]

Wait, so... 38.4k is really all we get after the long awaited patch? I guess it's time to think about quitting the game as a guard main, at least for me after having a first glance of where a few of the other specs land after this update in comparison. If they really wanna get rid of both support tomes for cFB and - at large - qFB (which I guess is R.I.P. now anyways due to Herald buff), your idea of locking the tomes altogether instead (as they weren't used much or even at all, despite what alot of people say) and just reverting the spec to normal playstyle with some juicy DPS buffs would be far better, create a very similar balance yet wouldn't suck the whole fun out of it. Literally no reason to overthrow cFB mains because they had access to some support tomes and now have to adapt the whole rotation.

[Dr Meta.3158]

Firebrand mains lamenting about 38k dps. Reaper mains cheering over 35k dps. What a world.

[supporthero.4520]

9 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Firebrand mains lamenting about 38k dps. Reaper mains cheering over 35k dps. What a world.

Do you play the game just to see some numbers on your screen or because you enjoy the feeling of your class/spec and you are having fun with its rotation? 
As I said several times above: This is not about numbers but about fun. How a build feels to play. It could do 45k dps and I would still dislike the feel.

[draxynnic.3719]

Interesting to see the Snowcrows viewpoint here.

I think I'm inclined to agree with the general principle. Increasing the DPS while making it less fun is probably really the opposite of what they wanted to do.

Not sure I agree with the proposed change to Quickfire, but I think it is pretty clear that the way it currently works is... flawed at best. One possible approach, which makes it less of a benefit when using other tomes, could be to make it so that it triggers the page refund from Swift Scholar every second page rather than every third page, but only in Tome of Justice. This would encourage more sustained use of tome skills rather than just blasting once and swapping out.

Would be nice to figure out some way of making Renewed Justice less of a dead trait, while avoiding making it something that can feed tomes 2 and 3. Maybe it could reduce the recharge of tome 1 skills when it triggers? Even just making it automatically fully recharge the passive would help (that could make it something that applies to the trait for all guardians rather than just firebrand).

Renewed Focus really should completely refresh your tomes.

I'd be concerned about reworking scepter into a condition weapon, given that it's basically the go-to ranged weapon for any power build that isn't dragonhunter. Could work as a hybrid, though.

[Ruisenior.6342]

Nice post.

       Besides all the problems you pointed (pages regeneration/cooldown tracking/skills like the elite highly nerfed cause this rework etc..) my biggest concern is playing firebrand now out of group content. I mean, on instanced/group content can be boring and strange to play but you still have those numbers that match other specs and it fills perfectly its role. But when playing alone and under high preasure situations you are done, now you have to choose between doing damage or healing, and in the situation im describing you run out of sources, even core works better for solo.

Edit: This was my favourite spec by far, not even being optimal for the content i used to play but it was beautifulll playing it, now im done with this boring and unplayeable mess. Sry for being that rude

Edited December 2, 2022 by Ruisenior.6342

[Kal Durak.2830]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Firebrand mains lamenting about 38k dps. Reaper mains cheering over 35k dps. What a world.

Oh, add in, Rifle mech nerfs because they are doing 25k dps 

[DarkSoul.2348]

1 hour ago, supporthero.4520 said:

Do you play the game just to see some numbers on your screen or because you enjoy the feeling of your class/spec and you are having fun with its rotation? 
As I said several times above: This is not about numbers but about fun. How a build feels to play. It could do 45k dps and I would still dislike the feel.

100% agree they could nerf dps to match reapers if i functioned like before the rework or better, that is what matters.Espicially too i was i have been working my main guard through content and achv to play the new stuff kinda bad timing too and end of year and wintersday around the corner it really is rude to guardians to be fair. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

I 100% support the idea of making Tome of Justice feel worthy of my time and a more staple, consistent part of my fire priest's attacks, even if it means a bit of a DPS loss. Give me a fun, simpler class to play that can reliably unleash holy fire, and I'm happy.

Those Tome of Justice skills were beautiful to see. Sorry to see them go.

[Bagie.1438]

Just revert the changes and remove stability from tome 3. all the fix firebrand really needed

[Dr Meta.3158]

5 hours ago, supporthero.4520 said:

Do you play the game just to see some numbers on your screen or because you enjoy the feeling of your class/spec and you are having fun with its rotation? 
As I said several times above: This is not about numbers but about fun. How a build feels to play. It could do 45k dps and I would still dislike the feel.

Its a core design issue. Firebrand pushes out other support specs. Firebrand does too much and they don't know how to remedy that without just deleting the spec. So its not about the firebrand players fun vs numbers but the firebrand players fun vs others fun. Now some people enjoy having fun at the expense of others but thankfully that's only a minority.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

I wonder if changing Quickfire to grant an extra page from Swift Scholar every 2 skills instead of every 3 skills only for Tome of Justice would work? You'd still be losing pages with each cast, but at less rate only for Tome 1. You wouldn't even need to change the trait name; the theme still fits with quickly firing off fire spells. This would replace the Ashes part of the trait.

[Hotride.2187]

Tbh choosing 1 tome would've been preferable to the current state. Hfb is interesting now, but it still feels way too much of a toolbox. And cfb/qcfb just got weird. And it still doesn't feel like they can properly balance the utility access of cfb...

The only good change is the limited stab in tome of courage.

But I only do normal fractals so what do I care. All variants are still more than good enough for that.

[supporthero.4520]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Its a core design issue. Firebrand pushes out other support specs. Firebrand does too much and they don't know how to remedy that without just deleting the spec. So its not about the firebrand players fun vs numbers but the firebrand players fun vs others fun. Now some people enjoy having fun at the expense of others but thankfully that's only a minority.

You are taking my topic about the fun DPS Firebrand in instanced content and turning it into something completely different.

This was about the fun a player has performing a rotation. This has nothing to do with meta, numbers or anything like that. You can have fun performing a rotation doing 32k dps on a full dps build if the rotation is well designed. In the last few updates we have seen buffs to many other support specs. But I don't want to turn this into another discussion about meta.

[supporthero.4520]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Tbh choosing 1 tome would've been preferable to the current state. Hfb is interesting now, but it still feels way too much of a toolbox. And cfb/qcfb just got weird. And it still doesn't feel like they can properly balance the utility access of cfb...

The only good change is the limited stab in tome of courage.

But I only do normal fractals so what do I care. All variants are still more than good enough for that.

It's not about Firebrand not being able to clear content. The reworked Firebrand does even more damage and is probably easier to play too. It's about the feel of the reworked rotation. They removed the last bit of spec identity DPS Firebrand had by turning tomes into initiatve fed engi kits. Please read past the first few lines above and you will understand what I'm talking about. If I wanted to play thief or engi I would play those.

[Dadnir.5038]

Isn't it a bit too soon to say: "The rotation isn't fun, ANet must change things?"

I mean, there is always a period of time where people are awkward with their builds/rotations after each patch that significantly impact a gameplay. Give it at least 2-3 weeks before saying: "It's bad! It's no fun at all!"

Edited December 2, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Antina.5973]

Current DPS FB (both pure dps and quickness dps) bring worst parts of thief and engi mechanics to guardian and it is because of kits and initiative that I avoid mentioned classes. Now Anet forces this on you on a class with established playstyle, the old FB? This gameplay is gone, deleted from the game, you don't have this on other specs. For me that's the worst imaginable rework scenario, and now it's live in game.

Thanks for breaking librarian's leg...

[Kelly.7019]

MAKE FIREBRAND GREAT AGAIN and revert these disgusting changes to tomes. the cds feel awful when playing. Using skill 4 or 5 in justice and then switching tomes to courage and that 4 or 5 skill is on cool down even though you didn't use it yet??? Firebrands aren't Revenants, AWFUL!!! I'd rather you roll out a class and leave the core mechanics alone. Quit nit picking every single little thing. i'd rather have more (new) elite rollouts then remix an elite to feel like a totally new thing which is the sadness of firebrand tomes right now. RIP firebrand 😞

had to finally change my profile photo to something else other then firebrand since i won't be playing that any more. 😞 😞 😞

Edited December 2, 2022 by Kelly.7019

[Kelly.7019]

18 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Isn't it a bit too soon to say: "The rotation isn't fun, ANet must change things?"

I mean, there is always a period of time where people are awkward with their builds/rotations after each patch that significantly impact a gameplay. Give it at least 2-3 weeks before saying: "It's bad! It's no fun at all!"

this isn't awkward though its down right disgusting.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

19 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Isn't it a bit too soon to say: "The rotation isn't fun, ANet must change things?"

I mean, there is always a period of time where people are awkward with their builds/rotations after each patch that significantly impact a gameplay. Give it at least 2-3 weeks before saying: "It's bad! It's no fun at all!"

If that were the only issue, sure. It's not about being awkward. The new rotation may actually be a bit easier. The heart of the matter is that the new design fails to capture the concept and feel of what made Tome of Justice great. Before, it was like opening up a whole tome of wuppass and unleashing a torrent of fire. Now, most of the time we only have enough pages for a quick dip that feels hopelessly lackluster in concept.
Not to mention the beautiful graphics that the art team put care into designing. You might see them once in a while now. If you're lucky.

[Sethz.3762]

For me as a returning player after 7 years Guard Main - playing 3 days the old cFB and now this reworked one I get 2k more DPS @ Golem but it feels way weaker in PVE Content (Fractals and Strikes) because you can't properly reset your tomes with the skills.

 

Also all the bugs and the Renewed Justice trait (which is not a trait to choose manually it's one in the middle which is auto selected) that has just no function, feels like some MAJOR oversight how can that happen lol?

 

Feels like Beta to me.

 

[Antina.5973]

3 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Before, it was like opening up a whole tome of wuppass and unleashing a torrent of fire. Now, most of the time we only have enough pages for a quick dip that feels hopelessly lackluster in concept.

Exactly that, the whole feeling of tomes is gone, it's not a book you open to unleash scorching fires of Vabbi, it's just another engi kit where you pop in for a skill and pop out whenever you think it's not on cooldown any more.

[Dr Meta.3158]

4 hours ago, supporthero.4520 said:

You are taking my topic about the fun DPS Firebrand in instanced content and turning it into something completely different.

This was about the fun a player has performing a rotation. This has nothing to do with meta, numbers or anything like that. You can have fun performing a rotation doing 32k dps on a full dps build if the rotation is well designed. In the last few updates we have seen buffs to many other support specs. But I don't want to turn this into another discussion about meta.

You're looking at a tree, I'm looking at the forest.

[Asum.4960]

I agree the current iteration isn't particularly fun, despite in many ways being more effective than before - and for me personally there are quite a few reasons for that. 

First of all Axe - I just really dislike the AA Chain.

The disjointed cast time and strange animation of the third hit just makes it flow so poorly (just like what makes Hammer feel so bad), and now FB has to spent a lot more time doing that - without those fun Justice breaks. 

 

Secondly, and most importantly, the Tomes feel almost entirely invalidated, to a point where they might as well not exist in their current form of a separate skill bar. 

Justice is pretty much just Tome 4 for solo play and 5 for group play. One skill. You never get to feel like you are playing Tome of Justice, you dip in as extra clunky step to use a single skill, with a hidden cooldown, tied to multitude of internal Cooldowns. Fun. 

Resolve is maybe 4 and 5, and Courage niche use of 3 and 5. That's it. And you don't get to play around with those few either, even as support - you pretty much pick one or max two of them to use occasionally. 

There is no justification in the current iteration for there to be 15 skills here, let alone the 1 Page skill 1's.

 

Then, as mentioned before, most of the spec operates on hidden internal Cooldowns. Liberator's Vow - internal CD, Swift Scholar - ICD, Weighty Terms - ICD, Quickfire - ICD, Inspired Virtue - ICD, Radiant Fire - ICD, Virtue of Resolution - ICD, Justice is Blind - ICD - and on and on, many of which then are further complicated by the Tomes itself having varying ICD's for when they can then trigger all the Trait ICD's in turn.. it's just incredibly messy to have to track an ICD to trigger another (or multiple) ICD's to use a skill with yet another hidden CD - or having to Tome flash for ICD triggers.

 

All of this makes me believe it might have been better to go into the direction of possibly making Tomes proper kits - no Page costs whatsoever on the skills, proper Auto Attack on the Tome's 1, actually let players play a Tome like a Shroud, Photon Forge or Kit skill set. 

Then take the page mechanic, reduce it to one or two Pages, which generate roughly every ~30 seconds, and make them the shared cost to enter a Tome instead. 

That way, while ideally balanced to not optimally camp them ofc, there is the option for proper Tome gameplay and to actually utilize the breath of skills in each individual Tome - but it still solves the problem of having all of the Damage and Utility of all Tomes accessible back to back.

A DPS FB would want to use their entry Page to access Justice Tome, and then wouldn't have the Page required to both dip into Resolve and Courage as well - but they then at least could properly use Justice and it's skills - whenever the shared entry Page recharges. 

Resolve and Courage would maybe require some small tune down to balance around a HFB having more frequent access to them (as a whole Tome), as well as coming up with a sensible AA for them, but that's about it. Archivist of Whispers, rather than extra Pages, could reduce CD's in the Tomes to still represent spending more value time within a Tome under the new design.

 

The set ~30 second Page recharge to access the Tomes would also likely be fairly balanced for the purposes of Virtue linked Traits, and not result in such a cluster ICD mess.

 

There might be other issues as this isn't something I've extensively thought through, but at face value this seems a lot more fun and thematic to play (even more so than pre-patch), while achieving similar balance goals in limiting access to all the different toolkits back to back.

 

Either that or at least reduce the Page recharge time and or costs in the current design. Going from 3 Tomes with 5 skills each to use freely to pretty much just being able to use one skill in one Tome (on top of all the layered ICD mess) is pretty harsh. Not even necessarily balance wise, just in terms of fun gameplay, this isn't it.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Asum.4960

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

You're looking at a tree, I'm looking at the forest.

You don't have a forest without trees.

Semantics aside, the OP is implicitly accepting the premise that firebrand was too good as it was (personally, I do think it was a little exaggerated, since people mostly point to fractals and fractals has structural issues that caused people to stick to firebrand when they would switch to another character in other endgame content), but whether the rework is fun or not is valid feedback and a very different discussion to whether a rebalancing was needed in the first place. I personally think the overall design of the rework is a good one, but there are some clear problems in the details that need to be resolved.

Besides, we've had dozens of threads about people complaining about firebrand in fractals, this doesn't need to be another one.

Edited December 3, 2022 by draxynnic.3719