Fervent Force isn't the problem

[Caid.4932]

It kind of seems peoples primary reason for wanting this nerfed is its getting in the way of seeing their wish list for pet / longbow / rotation changes.

I messed around with Alac untamed after the previous time posting in the thread - i cant play it, at all. Spirits require thought, timing and placement, boss mechanics will make them harder to make use of. They're not particularly hard to use on their own but i dont have the focus or attention level to spare with the hundred other untamed mechanics. Its way too fragile a rotation to maintain, with virtually any any every fight mechanic leading to problems even if i had the focus to spare.

I haven't seen a single alacrity untamed in any content since then anyway and im not convinced they exist in any meaningful capacity. Theres probably a couple of gaming ninjas playing it and making it work but i presume theres about 2 of them and if they can get it to work then they've earned the 3k extra damage or whatever

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I think a problem that's getting ignored is FF in its current state is preventing untamed from having a more versatile and practical rotation so that alone should warrant it getting changed. It'll just run into the ele problem otherwise. 

It doesn't, because FS exists, which already allows for a much easier dps build that is sufficient for most content and it could easily get buffed further without affecting FF builds.

There are also ways to tone down FF builds without killing them, for example, by making unleashed pet skill unaffected by FF (would make sense anyway, considering normal pet skills aren't affected either), which would leave some room for core buffs, if neccessary.

 

I sometimes feel like some players want untamed to become rifle mech 2.0, so they can pew pew with lb while the pet does most of the work, and think FF is preventing them from getting what they want, therefore asking for nerfs to something that in reality doesn't affect them in any way. But neither should untamed be turned into mech 2.0, nor is FF holding back other builds.

[Caid.4932]

9 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

But neither should untamed be turned into mech 2.0

I dont think you could even if you wanted it to. Its ssssooooooo far off in the other direction.

[Zaret.1450]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:37 PM, Caid.4932 said:

I think Fervent Force Untamed is huge amounts of fun. The most fun elite spec of EoD. That would be my primary argument against nerfing it. Theres some tidying up to do around the edges with projectiles and axe but i hope they leave the trait more or less as is.

I think in perfect circumstances it gets pretty crazy but perfect circumstances just aren't that common and its merely good the overwhelming majority of the time if played well. Most players will perform better with soulbeast imo. I'm pretty sure i do most of the time.

Im up for FF to be a 3 second cd reduction instead of 4 in pve and 3 instead of 2 in wvw would help too

[Mell.4873]

On 1/27/2023 at 4:58 AM, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

The trait is incredibly busted. You can easily use things like the active elite spirit skill multiple times in a minute with FF. FF gets hammer untamed to 40k DPS (ferocious Symbiosis hammer untamed is 35k). FF lets untamed run a single spirit with 0 concentration and the nature magic traitline for full alacrity uptime. Fervent Force is the single most broken trait in the game and gives too many opportunities for other things on ranger to be nerfed because of it.

It's so broken that no one even plays it -_-.

I mean come on a year in and its almost nonexistent in end game content. At this point any nerf would probably ruin the class if they don't make viable in another way (which I believe is Anets plan).

 

Like I said have Fervent Force is not the problem, the way its triggered is. The ability for Stuns to trigger its own cooldown is broken. Path of Scars is the other issue skill, slight cooldown increase would help.
Then just buff everything else in PvE.

[Kodama.6453]

12 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

It's so broken that no one even plays it -_-.

No one plays it because it is hard to utilize correctly. That something is hard to use does not automatically mean that it isn't broken, it just means that it is only broken in competent hands.

To take an example from another game: Azir from the game League of Legends. Absolutely hard to play this champion correctly, many players will not utilize him to his full potential. Yet if played by pro gamers, it was obvious that he was bonkers broken and he rightfully got nerfs to change that (while they also tried to lower his skill floor, so unskilled players can use him better).

Fervent force is like this, it is not used alot because many people simply lack the skill to use it's full potential. But if it is used at this level, then it is the most ridiculous trait this game has ever seen (at least in PvE).

[Mell.4873]

8 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

No one plays it because it is hard to utilize correctly. That something is hard to use does not automatically mean that it isn't broken, it just means that it is only broken in competent hands.

To take an example from another game: Azir from the game League of Legends. Absolutely hard to play this champion correctly, many players will not utilize him to his full potential. Yet if played by pro gamers, it was obvious that he was bonkers broken and he rightfully got nerfs to change that (while they also tried to lower his skill floor, so unskilled players can use him better).

Fervent force is like this, it is not used alot because many people simply lack the skill to use it's full potential. But if it is used at this level, then it is the most ridiculous trait this game has ever seen (at least in PvE).

Out of all my raiding/fractals/strikes I have never seen anyone use it as a support or anything other than pure damage with worse dps than Soulbeast. 

Its so hard to play, no one plays it.

 

Honestly though I agree with lowering the cooldown reduction to 3 seconds and the self stun thing I bring up alot. Then just buff the rest of the kit. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Zyreva.1078]

24 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

But if it is used at this level[...]

It isn't.

At any level.

[Kodama.6453]

10 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

It isn't.

At any level.

You can't.

That doesn't mean that no one can.

[Zyreva.1078]

14 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You can't.

That doesn't mean that no one can.

I'm not basing that statement on my own performance. There's data aviable that paints a pretty clear picture.

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I'm not basing that statement on my own performance. There's data aviable that paints a pretty clear picture.

It's a very small portion of the player base which can use it fully, because as said, it is really hard.

But a small portion of the playerbase still doesn't mean "no one".

[Zyreva.1078]

4 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's a very small portion of the player base which can use it fully, because as said, it is really hard.

But a small portion of the playerbase still doesn't mean "no one".

But even if used to it's "full potential" it doesn't actually result in anything out of the ordinary. Because it's potential is a lot more limited than what you think it is.

Edited January 29, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Kodama.6453]

9 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

But even if used to it's "full potential" it doesn't actually result in anything out of the ordinary. Because it's potential is a lot more limited than what you think it is.

Examples of untamed solo cleansing slothasor condition spam in raids by spamming healing spring, nothing out of the ordinary.

Examples of untamed carrying HT cm by being able to spam instant revives for downed players, nothing out of the ordinary.

Alacrity untamed beating other alacrity dps classes by at least 5k, up to 10k dps, nothing out of the ordinary.

k.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Zaret.1450]

Look, this has already gone too far, FF on pve is too strong, at least if you know how, and in wvw its too bad, in pve it cd 4 secs in wvw it cds 2 secs, leave it at 3 and thats all.

Just stop with the, noone plays, everyone does, you are or arent or whatever.

[Zyreva.1078]

15 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Examples of untamed solo cleansing slothasor condition spam in raids by spamming healing spring, nothing out of the ordinary.

Examples of untamed carrying HT cm by being able to spam instant revives for downed players, nothing out of the ordinary.

k.

As if there are no other/better ways to handle those encounters. Like druid will easily outcleanse Untamed, and nothing beats heal scourge rez power (since spirit rez radius is very small, delayed and doesn't move bodies out of aoes, i doubt it is that great at carrying ht cm, where players often have to spread, and insta die quickly if caught in red)

(Btw can you link said HT CM run(s)? I've yet to see a successful one with untamed).

Edited January 29, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Mell.4873]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:39 AM, zaswer.5246 said:

Look, this has already gone too far, FF on pve is too strong, at least if you know how, and in wvw its too bad, in pve it cd 4 secs in wvw it cds 2 secs, leave it at 3 and thats all.

Just stop with the, noone plays, everyone does, you are or arent or whatever.

Yeah honestly I agree, I only but'd back in since people are claiming its used in end game. No one uses Untamed so it does need a buff and if Fervent Force is preventing that then it has to be nerfed.

I think you seriously looks at the self stun thing. It's a bit broken that a stun can trigger its own cooldown reduction with FF. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Mell.4873

[enkeny.6937]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:30 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

Examples of untamed solo cleansing slothasor condition spam in raids by spamming healing spring, nothing out of the ordinary.

Examples of untamed carrying HT cm by being able to spam instant revives for downed players, nothing out of the ordinary.

Alacrity untamed beating other alacrity dps classes by at least 5k, up to 10k dps, nothing out of the ordinary.

k.

Alac untamed can beat full dps too 🙂

ressing with elite spirit is nice, but most likely it will die and it has a long cd to say, just spam res...

But if you want to highlight some broken things: FF works on special action too. trivialising Mursat overseer claiming, or abuse 99 fractal boss.  (well on the other hand it is very disturbing on Cain cm )

Reducing the cd reduction may lower the damage output, but most likely we only need to act spike trap to the rotation for other things, like alacrity, boonstrip, projectile block, and... for more cc

[Kodama.6453]

10 minutes ago, enkeny.6937 said:

Alac untamed can beat full dps too 🙂

ressing with elite spirit is nice, but most likely it will die and it has a long cd to say, just spam res...

But if you want to highlight some broken things: FF works on special action too. trivialising Mursat overseer claiming, or abuse 99 fractal boss.  (well on the other hand it is very disturbing on Cain cm )

Reducing the cd reduction may lower the damage output, but most likely we only need to act spike trap to the rotation for other things, like alacrity, boonstrip, projectile block, and... for more cc

I am not one of the people advocating for lowering the cooldown reduction of FF. I personally think the trait just has to go entirely.
But that FF is even affecting SAK skills.... wow, just wow.

If Anet has learned anything from EoD, then it is hopefully that cooldown reduction effects are simply broken for this game, since cooldowns are basically the only resource needed for the very big majority of skills.

Ammunition refill and cooldown reduction on bladesworn has proven problematic, both effects got changed.
Cooldown reduction of catalyst elite skill is proving problematic in competitive right now.
FF on untamed also currently problematic in PvE and Anet has acknowledged that they need to bring it down in the future.

Anet, stay away from cooldown reducing effects in the future. You experimented alot with it in EoD and all of them have proven to be a problem. They don't work well for this game.

[enkeny.6937]

The last part was not for the quote, sorry 🙂

I don't like skills/traits, which are almost mandatory. Now 9/10 build use FF, the 10th is for encounter where FF not working....

Pushing the numbers in this case fill like searching the border between OP/useless. 
can change the trigger, but it also feel the same.
rework means it is discarded, see something new...

At the moment, I feel it is a skill that is the core of the build or useless, no 'just useful' option. We won't use this to 'reduce cd some random time'. Ferocious Symbiosis may be a good option if you don't want to use Fervent Force, but it is only for power I think.

[Zaret.1450]

On 1/29/2023 at 7:43 PM, Mell.4873 said:

Yeah honestly I agree, I only but'd back in since people are claiming its used in end game. No one uses Untamed so it does need a buff and if Fervent Force is preventing that then it has to be nerfed.

I think you seriously looks at the self stun thing. It's a bit broken that a stun can trigger its own cooldown reduction with FF. 

That part about the stun is true, but only in pve content i think, both hammer 5 and 3 are good skills, but unless youre much better than the oponent hitting both skills in pvp or wvw isnt realy that easy, and a second less of reduction will add up so you cant perma cc even if you hit both, in pve you can maintain a high amount of breakbar dmg but other classes have huge cc burst, as for wvw, hammer 5 could be good for getting rid of stabs but as it moves you its a big risk, and hammer 3 i think stip boons? not sure but its not that great there either.

If you nerfed FF, then buffed pets or better reworked them so they survive longer and are more usable on untamed, and then swaped ambushes to unleashed skills, place them in the 2 slot so they replace the strongest skills of each weapon with a akill more aoe focused, less powerfull dmg wise, but that can strip boons, there 3 things could balance out each other, pve dmg would just lower a bit and both FF and FS would be options, in pvp it would just mean untamed is more dangerous but i think there are some beast out there too, as for wvw it just makes it better for zerg content no mather the size, as it would have good dmg, boon strip and pets would survive better wich is part of the class anyway.

Again, not for you but for everyone, please dont go with things like, its for elites, noone plays it, or similar, classes have diferent dificulties, and diferent builds, if a class can get to 60k for example, even if you cant actualy get to that on the field, the class should be balanced because theres something working wrong, basicaly the potential and actual performance are imbalanced, but if you can get 40k breaking your fingers, and someone more "relaxed" can get to 35, well, each one goes to a group where they fit and thats all.

[Levetty.1279]

On 1/29/2023 at 10:22 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

No one plays it because it is hard to utilize correctly. That something is hard to use does not automatically mean that it isn't broken, it just means that it is only broken in competent hands.

To take an example from another game: Azir from the game League of Legends. Absolutely hard to play this champion correctly, many players will not utilize him to his full potential. Yet if played by pro gamers, it was obvious that he was bonkers broken and he rightfully got nerfs to change that (while they also tried to lower his skill floor, so unskilled players can use him better).

Fervent force is like this, it is not used alot because many people simply lack the skill to use it's full potential. But if it is used at this level, then it is the most ridiculous trait this game has ever seen (at least in PvE).

League of Legends is a PvP game. GW2 Raids/Strikes are not. Nobody is going to complain if one of the 7 good Untamed joins there squad. Even less would notice that 40k damage compared to the other DPSs 35-38k.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid being rude to other players. I've removed some posts.

Regards.

[Levetty.1279]

Hey look I was right about Quickness Ranger