Get rid of Quick and Alac Boon

[Obtena.7952]

12 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

yes , but ppl don't do that so problem exist 

Sure, I didn't say the problem doesn't exist. ... and you are wrong when you say people aren't making their own teams to play builds they want. I know for a fact people do.

Nothing you are saying here changes the fact that the SOLUTION to the problem of playing what you want exists and the solution to that problem is exactly what I told you and keep telling you.  

People making their own teams. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

12 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I see people looking for healscourges for some content. Yeah, mostly because they have a rez mechanic which makes them great carries for some encounters, but it counts. It's a heal build without any of the two key boons. 😛

Where they ask it ? boneskinner ? Matthias ? 

Yes ppl can also play deadeye on q1 + q2 , thats called niche.

Edited January 8, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Where they ask it ? boneskinner ? Matthias ? 

Yes ppl can also play deadeye on q1 + q2 , thats called niche.

Why does it matter where they ask for it? I can think of lots of reasons to ask for a healscourge and it's not even related to any specific encounter. Whether it's niche or not is irrelevant and your attempt to label things as 'niche' to dismiss other people's points is not honest. The fact remains that this is an example of people playing builds they want, even if they are healers without Alac or Quickness boonshares. 

Your massive failure in this discussion is to explain why it's important for any specific build (like vindihealer) to be played as much as any other. Until you can provide that explanation, then you can't simply state as a fact that Anet needs to fix these builds. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Gehenna.3625]

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, I didn't say the problem doesn't exist. ... and you are wrong when you say people aren't making their own teams to play builds they want. I know for a fact people do.

I'm sure there are people out there who do, but I'm not convinced there are enough of them to solve this issue to a satisfactory degree. 

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing you are saying here changes the fact that the SOLUTION to the problem of playing what you want exists and the solution to that problem is exactly what I told you and keep telling you.  

People making their own teams. 

Raiding (and I include CM strikes in that) is harder content that requires more of players and it should be that way. That automatically means it's not content that you can actually play your way. Not entirely anyway. You still need to have those boons, no matter who does it. 

So yeah, making your own team is a technical but mostly theoretical solution and as such is not a realistic one. Just think of 10 people wanting to play their own way... sounds to me like something that takes forever and is more likely to fall apart than be successful. I'm sure some people manage to do it but it usually needs at least a few people who don't mind changing some things for the greater good of the team. 

Personally, I don't care for boon management. In essence, 100% boon upkeep just means that you're doing a lot of maintenance work for a new baseline that the boss fights require you to have. That's so 🤢 to me.

So I took the other solution: I don't raid in GW2. Just as simple as that and I accept that. I think that Anet will not fundamentally change how boons work anyways. So I'm not holding my breath. 

However, it is my opinion that boons, particularly because of the 100% upkeep maintenance and the new baseline being way higher (because of how strong those boons are), do cause all sorts of balance issues in GW2 in general. I do get rewarding players for mastering the combat system but I do deplore how enormous the difference is, given that most players will never master the combat system. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I'm sure there are people out there who do, but I'm not convinced there are enough of them to solve this issue to a satisfactory degree. 

Whether someone is convinced it's the solution doesn't change the fact that it IS a solution. The important point here is that it's a solution that everyone has access to and it works. 

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Raiding (and I include CM strikes in that) is harder content that requires more of players and it should be that way. That automatically means it's not content that you can actually play your way. Not entirely anyway. You still need to have those boons, no matter who does it. 

OK, my point has nothing to do with whether these teams do or do not need boons though. My point is that if you want to play how you want, the best way to do that is to make teams with similar minded people. 

As far as class use and balance is concerned, the hardest content that imposes some minimum requirements like healing or boonsharing on team comps is the worst standard to measure overall build relevance to group content because it's not a problem if most builds aren't relevant to this small subset of  exceptional, intended harder content. 

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

So yeah, making your own team is a technical but mostly theoretical solution and as such is not a realistic one. Just think of 10 people wanting to play their own way... sounds to me like something that takes forever and is more likely to fall apart than be successful. I'm sure some people manage to do it but it usually needs at least a few people who don't mind changing some things for the greater good of the team. 

It might sound that way to you but it's completely realistic to make a team with people that play builds they want because outside of small amount of intentionally difficult CM content, being successful for the significant majority of the group content is defined by people knowing the encounter and the builds they play, not how closely they adhere to optimal builds or team comps. 

 I mean, whether the new scheme or roles based on boon share and heal is good or bad for group content design ... different discussion. The answer to playing how you want in a group setting has ALWAYS been to make your own teams, even before these roles were official. I'm of the opinion that those roles are simply an enabler for Anet to create this CM level content because outside of those ... they aren't necessary to succeed. I believe that even within that CM content, there is build variety to appeal to people being able to have some choices in how they create comps. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Soulfulsynergy.9583]

On one hand, it's entirely obvious why healers have to bring a boon. They've literally nothing else to do. A handful of niche builds get ripped apart because of this - Heal Vindi as was brought up - but that's the nature of boons. If quickness and Alacrity are Zapped, it will be protection, might, swiftness, etc. Regardless, just healing is pointless for the most part.

But...
Quickness and Alacrity are horrible for the game.
They account for an absurd amount of a group's damage output and aside from a couple builds, their application is trivial at best. There is no content trivialized by the boons that could not be trivialized with a buff to damage across the board (or just zap the boons and rebalance the handful of encounters designed around 100% uptime). A build like Q. Firebrand can do everything a DPS brand can do, minus one utility skill and a handful of stats. A build like Specter gets to eat dirt and like it, using their utility for anything other than practical utility.
So between shunting the boon onto a handful of traits and ruining half the builds that could be fun if the boon application was actually designed to be useful and the absurdity of a couple 'group content only' boons in a largely Open World PvE game, they just sit as the silliest outliers. At this point all the other boons are a given as long as you're in a group, but quickness and alacrity need to hamstring a DPS build (and potentially ruin it entirely) and reduce healer viability down to whoever Anet decides should be allowed to be a healer (like the murder of Alac Vindi and Quickheal Bladesworn - yes both were bordline memes, but they were viable and fun memes).

I am fully on board with zap them out of existence and let players figure it out; but I cannot blame groups kicking healers who aren't meeting the requirements of having a "critical" boon while the game is in this state of gatekeeping those boons.

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, Soulfulsynergy.9583 said:

Quickness and Alacrity are horrible for the game.
They account for an absurd amount of a group's damage output and aside from a couple builds, their application is trivial at best. 

True ... now ask yourself WHY these 'horrible' things have been introduced to the game as roles. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

True ... now ask yourself WHY these 'horrible' things have been introduced to the game as roles. 

Quickness was introduced to the game for the role of providing bursts. Especially in pvp, you could coordinate with your team to burst down opponents before they had time to recover.

Alacrity's role when introduced was for sustaining pressure, reducing the cd of powerful cc or damage skills so they could be used in quicker succession, often during a burst, locking a cap, or during a game mechanic. 

It was fun, exciting, and dynamic to time these boons with key skills and game mechanics before their skills went on long CDs. They let those roles get away from them either intentionally or unintentionally. But now? Boring, static, uninspiring. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[mizaru.1385]

I just think existing is fine, but pls dont make it at 100% uptime. Its ridiculous. Which game does that??

[Obtena.7952]

21 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Quickness was introduced to the game for the role of providing bursts. Especially in pvp, you could coordinate with your team to burst down opponents before they had time to recover.

Alacrity's role when introduced was for sustaining pressure, reducing the cd of powerful cc or damage skills so they could be used in quicker succession, often during a burst, locking a cap, or during a game mechanic. 

It was fun, exciting, and dynamic to time these boons with key skills and game mechanics before their skills went on long CDs. They let those roles get away from them either intentionally or unintentionally. But now? Boring, static, uninspiring. 

That doesn't answer my question. The question is: Why are these boons roles in PVE? I already know what they do and how they work. 

Contrary to why they are 'horrible' for the game as the person I quoted claimed, they are there as roles in PVE so endgame content is more inclusive.

The point is ... the people making claims how bad these boons are as roles in PVE aren't paying attention to who plays this game and who Anet is (and has always) created this game for.    

Edited January 12, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Gaiawolf.8261]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't answer my question. The question is: Why are these boons roles in PVE? I already know what they do and how they work. 

Contrary to why they are 'horrible' for the game as the person I quoted claimed, they are there as roles in PVE so endgame content is more inclusive.

The point is ... the people making claims how bad these boons are as roles in PVE aren't paying attention to who plays this game and who Anet is (and has always) created this game for.    

Sorry I can't answer that question. I wasn't following the dev interviews when they started making those changes. I was following much more closely to their roles and design when first introduced (as the question I responded to directly asked about).

Basically the devs stated their intentions for how boons, effects, and combat in general were intended to work (i.e. less about rotations and boon upkeep, more emphasis on dynamic skill use and combos). 100% uptime is a drastic change to their original roles. 

And to reiterate my stance and answer why I don't like their current state, I preferred when they were used for more dynamic combat functions like bursts, rather than just being part of a static rotation to upkeep all the time. This last bit doesn't answer your question either; it's merely my opinion and what I find more fun. 

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

As for  Scourge in particular, their lack of Alacrity is easily solved by just adding it to Sand Shade placement when the trait to have only one Sand Shade is taken (Sand Savant). This keeps it from being overpowered since it would have to compete with the other two more popular traits, especially Demonic Lore.

Sand Savant is never used in competitive and would barely affect those modes.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508