Tired Of Pepega Invuln Design Classes

[godfat.2604]

10 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Virtuoso gets a "better" distortion than chrono/mirage/core. They don't need to be in combat, but at same time, they no longer have clones as well either.

I actually like core Distortion better, due to Virtuoso missing Illusionary Persona (Mesmer itself counts as a clone), I can’t use Bladesong Distortion without blades, and that can be critical especially after I just used shatters/bladesongs. I think the main problem for Virtuoso is that it also has Blade Renewal, which gives 3 seconds invulnerability (channeled) on a 40 seconds cooldown, and also 5 blades so if Bladesong Distortion wasn’t on cooldown, that’s another 0.75 * 5 => 3.75 seconds of invulnerability. Or one can use Bladeturn Requiem for 2 seconds block and then triggering Psychic Riposte, gaining 3 blades and then chain Bladesong Distortion for 2.25 seconds of invulnerability. That’s 7.25 seconds chained defense, without counting signets spam with Blurred Inscription. Of course this means all resources spent on defense, too.

My suggestion has always been the same as a lot have brought up from the very beginning when EoD beta ran. Merge Bladesong Distortion, Bladesong Requiem, and Blade Renewal into one skill so it cannot be chained. Add new skills in the holes so Virtuoso has other tools to do something else. Rework Blurred Inscription for sure. It still needs a lot of rework and given how it interacts with PvE, I doubt if Anet would rework much if anything, sadly.

[Waffles.5632]

@godfat.2604 That's my conflict too, I hold back a lot because idk if anet cares enough to actually do the work, but it's needed more than ever because atm gw2 feels like a play to win game. If you're not running the EoD specs, you are at a major disadvantage no matter how anyone slices it and IMO it should not be this way.

 

Too much of PvE has bled into PvP and at this point I truly think they should just remove all pvp adjustments completely. Erase it.

At least for one week make it so PvP just uses PvE numbers. Mirage gets 2 dodges, berserker greatsword gets aoe volcano again, etc etc who cares. It wouldn't be any different than what we have now, except there's at least a small chance it will be more fun because more elite specs would be on an even playing field.

Idk about WvW so can't comment, but for PvP a lot of things would be outright broken, but it would be fun again.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sahne.6950]

13 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

If you're not running the EoD specs, you are at a major disadvantage

meh....  do you really think that?

There is Untamed and there is Cata.... the other EoD specs are pretty..... meh....

 

13 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Too much of PvE has bled into PvP and at this point I truly think they should just remove all pvp adjustments completely. Erase it.

At least for one week make it so PvP just uses PvE numbers.

personally i think its pretty lame that some things will just straight up oneshot you whilst others will still tickle.

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[godfat.2604]

13 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

That's my conflict too, I hold back a lot because idk if anet cares enough to actually do the work

I admire people who tried hard to come up with some more radical rework ideas, sadly if those ideas didn’t try to cope with all the game modes at the same time, some are going to be very unhappy and in the end Anet will just respond to the loudest majority. The example for this was Sneak Gyro in WvW. If it were made stationary but the same stealth duration, it can still be useful in WvW. Now it’s just a dead skill with the absolutely awful duration. That’s what PvE players want. Don’t touch it in PvE, feel free to kill it in other modes. Guess that’s just reality.

13 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

At least for one week make it so PvP just uses PvE numbers.

I don’t think it’ll happen and tons of people will cry, but yeah maybe could use some laughs for a week. Or maybe just add it as a fun mode, why not? Bring the guild hall arena where it’s running with PvE settings! I had a lot of fun with release Chrono and release Mirage, and release Spellbreaker! Also release Scourge, and probably also the early 2 dodges Vindicator, laughing to see how long those can last at all… It’s as if they’re never tested.

59 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

There is Untamed and there is Cata.... the other EoD specs are pretty..... meh....

Now CMC is the lead, who designed Untamed and Catalyst. Before that, it’s Solar who designed Mechanist, Virtuoso, and Harbinger, and the former 2 were/are dominating PvE, while having 2k hours in Firebrand. Coincident? Probably. Favouritism or bias? Probably!

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, godfat.2604 said:

Now CMC is the lead, who designed Untamed and Catalyst. Before that, it’s Solar who designed Mechanist, Virtuoso, and Harbinger, and the former 2 were/are dominating PvE, while having 2k hours in Firebrand. Coincident? Probably. Favouritism or bias? Probably!

Allisvain.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Waffles.5632]

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

meh....  do you really think that?

There is Untamed and there is Cata.... the other EoD specs are pretty..... meh....

 

Yes I do because the top pvp specs since EoD have all been EoD.

 

There have been exceptions, like spellbreaker, but since EoD it's been specter, harb, bladesworn, WB, cata, vindi, untamed, virtu, mecha, etc. Literally all the EoD specs have been on top and still are. I expected the specs to shake up the meta, and even assumed some would be on top like WB or Vindi. This was way back during beta.

 

But for it to be this long and still EoD specs are outright oppressive while HoT/EoD specs suffer, literally mirage still only has one dodge. It's a very sour taste. Mirage should have gotten two dodges as soon as Vindi got two dodges, instead they just teased with an obscure "we're considering it" and then silence. Meanwhile ever since Vindi got two dodges it has skyrocketed in pvp again.

 

Top 3 outright oppressive specs atm, in no order :

Vindi - seen at top tier, is bruiser god because it can sustain, dps, chase, burst, defend, solo,+1, and team fight

Cata - godzilla god tier, constant high damage AOE, invuls, evasions, mobility, can entirely eclipse a node and displace 5 people with several abilities. This is so dominant in team fights its asburd. Every single team has had a cata or vindi.

Mecha - seen at low/mid tier, the only silver lining being it is an easy focus, while the other 2 above are very hard focus targets, especially considering the other stuff they bring, back to mecha tho, Mecha is just super easy to play for how much it rewards, can literally spam rifle+jade robot and down most new pvpers not even joking. The jade robot is always a constant threat and has too much hp for most classes to solo burst, which means if u want to kill, u have to bring 2 dps to burst, not a good idea to waste 2 burst on pet instead of player. Jade robot still stays up when mecha is down, so that means if u down mecha and u have sub 30% hp and no heal, there's a very good chance jade robot will down you before you can stomp mecha. Out of all the most frustrating moments in pvp, getting downed by an steroid stat stick ranged AOE AI pet after you downed the mecha is at least top 3.

 

After this you have Virtu, Untamed, etc, which are crazy in their own right, we are just talking the difference between A tier and S+ tier. Virtu and Untamed can be reliably shut down with coordinated effort IMO, but the above 3 cannot. (again IMO). Out of the above 3 I'd say mecha easiest to shut down, it's just you can't ignore how much of a prob mecha is for lower tiers. The spec practically plays itself, which is always bad design.

 

Now Mirage is not the only victim, kuz there are other classes that really feel abandoned by the devs, and that is just a very bitter feeling so I feel for any other players in similar situations.

 

Source: I reached #18 yesterday in ranked 5v5 as power mirage, my ranking was 1562 but now I'm like #50 or so with 1520 or something.

I was trying for plat 2 but as you can see above, that was my experience. The higher I climbed the more I saw of vindi/cata, mostly cata. It makes sense, Cata has always had bonkers AOE, but now with scepter buffs they are really over the top IMO. Lava tooth especially just should have never of shipped in pvp like that, it's careless by anet but not surprising given what we already know in this thread, i.e just giving virtu core distortion and calling it a day. Air for scepter is insane too because of the instant abilities.

 

That's why it's a bit hard so sorry if that frustration comes off at you. Anet is just making lazy and careless decisions when it comes to pvp. I wish we had a pvp dev tbh because pvp is now which team has more EoD specs is the team that will win. Legit when I see both a cata and vindi on other team it's just nothing but dread because no matter what you know every single node is going to be ridiculous to fight over.

 

It's one thing if it's skill vs skill but right now it very much feels that EoD classes brute force a lot of things with OP mechanics, or overloaded mechanics. The oppressive part is stemming from the fact that in many cases, there really isn't anything you can do except hope your team has equal EoD representation, and play an EoD spec yourself to compete.

 

 

[Sahne.6950]

19 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

That's why it's a bit hard so sorry if that frustration comes off at you. Anet is just making lazy and careless decisions when it comes to pvp.

Haha dont worry! didnt feel anything like this coming my way.

Its your personal opinion and i respect that, but i still want to tell you that i view this diffrent.

 

I am playing solely tempest (HoT) so i might be viewing the balancing from a diffrent standpoint than you are. But that should also show you that you can easily compete with previous specs.

My personal experience is like this:

Vindi is literally garbage....  like for real.... if i see a vindi i already know ive won the fight, cuz it cant produce enough cc to stop my sustain, and the dmg is not enough to break thru the sustain that i keep pushing out. i have some clips against vindis on my Youtube. you can see for yourself, even Rick and Morty doesnt have a multiverse where vindicator can kill a good tempest.

same goes for mechanist.... its hot trash. BIIIG trash... "5 raccoons fighting over the last tortellini in a trashcan"-trash.  Compare it to toolsholo... which again.... isnt a eod spec... Holo is alot stronger.

Cata.... Cata is good no doubt! probably one of the strongest specs currenty.

 

While you are right, almost every EoD spec was the "topdog" at one point or the other.  They changed that rather fast.  You can 100% compete with HoT or PoF specs.  you do NOT need EoD to reach a high rating.

I consider most EoD specs pretty weak right now. The only good ones are Cata Untamed and mayybe 🍔.

again, all personal opinion. But if you find EoD specs overtuned and oppressive... you should go and play them. Maybe you havent ironed out their weakness yet, because most of them have VERY VERY apparent designflaws that can be abused.

Your mileage may vary.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I consider most EoD specs pretty weak right now. The only good ones are Cata Untamed and mayybe 🍔.

Another interesting point for discussion. I have to chime in here. This is how I'd rank what's going on currently based on my own opinions, despite what metabattle.com says:

Defense Spellbreakers (S-), Bladesworn (A-), Warrior & Berserker (B+) ~ PoF being dominant for War

Guard Support (A), Willbender (A), Dragonhunter (B+), Firebrand (C+) ~ Core & EoD being dominant for Guard

Vindicator (S-), Herald (A), Revenant & Renegade (B-) ~ EoD being dominant for Rev

Tool Holo (A conquest/S+ 1v1s), Scrapper (A), Mechanist (B), Engineer (C+) ~ PoF being dominant for Engi

Daredevil (A), Specter (A-), Deadeye (A-), Thief (B+) ~ HoT being dominant for Thief

Untamed (A+), Soulbeast (A+), Condi Druid (A+), Ranger (B+) ~ has equally distributed values

Harbinger (A), Reaper (A-), Scourge (B+), Necromancer (B+) ~ EoD slightly pulls ahead here

Chronomancer (A+), Virtuoso (A-), Mesmer (A-), Mirage (B+) ~ HoT is strong for burst and hold currently

Catalyst (S), Tempest (A+), Weaver (A-), Elementalist (B+) ~ EoD takes it for Ele

 

3x instances where EoD is clear choice to use

2x instances where PoF is clear choice to use

2x instances where HoT is clear choice to use

2x instances where it is debatable between EoD/PoF/HoT

 

[Sahne.6950]

14 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Another interesting point for discussion. I have to chime in here. This is how I'd rank what's going on currently based on my own opinions, despite what metabattle.com says:

Defense Spellbreakers (S-), Bladesworn (A-), Warrior & Berserker (B+) ~ PoF being dominant for War

Guard Support (A), Willbender (A), Dragonhunter (B+), Firebrand (C+) ~ Core & EoD being dominant for Guard

Vindicator (S-), Herald (A), Revenant & Renegade (B-) ~ EoD being dominant for Rev

Tool Holo (A conquest/S+ 1v1s), Scrapper (A), Mechanist (B), Engineer (C+) ~ PoF being dominant for Engi

Daredevil (A), Specter (A-), Deadeye (A-), Thief (B+) ~ HoT being dominant for Thief

Untamed (A+), Soulbeast (A+), Condi Druid (A+), Ranger (B+) ~ has equally distributed values

Harbinger (A), Reaper (A-), Scourge (B+), Necromancer (B+) ~ EoD slightly pulls ahead here

Chronomancer (A+), Virtuoso (A-), Mesmer (A-), Mirage (B+) ~ HoT is strong for burst and hold currently

Catalyst (S), Tempest (A+), Weaver (A-), Elementalist (B+) ~ EoD takes it for Ele

 

3x instances where EoD is clear choice to use

2x instances where PoF is clear choice to use

2x instances where HoT is clear choice to use

2x instances where it is debatable between EoD/PoF/HoT

 

nice list. i agree with almost everything. Here is what i would change.

i would put Herald and Vindi on the same spot. I would put both at A tier.

Condibreakerduellist would be S Tier on my list.

And i think its weird that Cata is the only S tier for Conquest.....while Ranger somehow doesnt have a single S tier. I am smelling a tiiny bit of bias. 😄

I would put Untamed at S-..... according to your list Vindi is stronger than Untamed and i think thats just not true.

 

But if i had only the choice to say:  Yes or No.       i would say YES! this is accurate.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 12/19/2022 at 9:18 PM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I still question the necessity for virtuoso to have distortion at all. I understand distortion is required to proc a certain amount of traits (especially in chaos), but honestly those traits should just be reworked anyway.

its there to make virtuoso be useless for couple secounds longer before they die

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 12/20/2022 at 7:32 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

Untamed's healing skill, perilous gift, is really close to invuln, tho.

You don't take power or condition damage during it and if your pet is unleashed when casting it, it even grants you stability to ignore CC. Not actual invuln, but all the components are there: no damage taken and you can ignore one CC at least (and there are several other stability sources to make it even less likely to get CCed).

its kind of how people used to complain about mirage cloak OP cuz you can dodge while healing and cant interrupt it.
but then 99% of the classes can use stealth, stability, quickness, or instant heals to do the same kitten at which point the arguments dont make much sense.
Like I get that most of my games I played mesmer but holly kitten 90+% of the stuff people whine on mesmer other classes do the exactly same thing

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Nice demonstration of Pepegdom:

 

[Wild.1705]

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Nice demonstration of Pepegdom:

 

Ugh, yeah that's a mesmer. Sums up mesmer in this meta well.

Why did someone give you a confused face emote?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 minute ago, Wild.1705 said:

Ugh, yeah that's a mesmer. Sums up mesmer in this meta well.

Why did someone give you a confused face emote?

Because I have a certain fanbase in this forum that insists on clicking confused face no matter what I post.

It's the new trend in NA. Act like you don't understand facts & evidence when it's presented to you.

[Morwath.9817]

10 hours ago, Wild.1705 said:

Why did someone give you a confused face emote?

Mesmer mains like to apply confusion.

[Zekent.3652]

On 12/24/2022 at 6:23 AM, Morwath.9817 said:

Mesmer mains like to apply confusion.

Thats... a good one lmao

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:48 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Another interesting point for discussion. I have to chime in here. This is how I'd rank what's going on currently based on my own opinions, despite what metabattle.com says:

 

Defense Spellbreakers (S-), Bladesworn (A-), Warrior & Berserker (B+) ~ PoF being dominant for War

Guard Support (A), Willbender (A), Dragonhunter (B+), Firebrand (C+) ~ Core & EoD being dominant for Guard

Vindicator (S-), Herald (A), Revenant & Renegade (B-) ~ EoD being dominant for Rev

Tool Holo (A conquest/S+ 1v1s), Scrapper (A), Mechanist (B), Engineer (C+) ~ PoF being dominant for Engi

Daredevil (A), Specter (A-), Deadeye (A-), Thief (B+) ~ HoT being dominant for Thief

Untamed (A+), Soulbeast (A+), Condi Druid (A+), Ranger (B+) ~ has equally distributed values

Harbinger (A), Reaper (A-), Scourge (B+), Necromancer (B+) ~ EoD slightly pulls ahead here

Chronomancer (A+), Virtuoso (A-), Mesmer (A-), Mirage (B+) ~ HoT is strong for burst and hold currently

Catalyst (S), Tempest (A+), Weaver (A-), Elementalist (B+) ~ EoD takes it for Ele

 

Just popping in to say that this is pretty spot on given my experience, except maybe scourge. But it's close to where I think it'd be anyway. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Waffles.5632]

On 12/22/2022 at 5:25 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

Haha dont worry! didnt feel anything like this coming my way.

Its your personal opinion and i respect that, but i still want to tell you that i view this diffrent.

 

I am playing solely tempest (HoT) so i might be viewing the balancing from a diffrent standpoint than you are. But that should also show you that you can easily compete with previous specs.

My personal experience is like this:

Vindi is literally garbage....  like for real.... if i see a vindi i already know ive won the fight, cuz it cant produce enough cc to stop my sustain, and the dmg is not enough to break thru the sustain that i keep pushing out. i have some clips against vindis on my Youtube. you can see for yourself, even Rick and Morty doesnt have a multiverse where vindicator can kill a good tempest.

same goes for mechanist.... its hot trash. BIIIG trash... "5 raccoons fighting over the last tortellini in a trashcan"-trash.  Compare it to toolsholo... which again.... isnt a eod spec... Holo is alot stronger.

Cata.... Cata is good no doubt! probably one of the strongest specs currenty.

 

While you are right, almost every EoD spec was the "topdog" at one point or the other.  They changed that rather fast.  You can 100% compete with HoT or PoF specs.  you do NOT need EoD to reach a high rating.

I consider most EoD specs pretty weak right now. The only good ones are Cata Untamed and mayybe 🍔.

again, all personal opinion. But if you find EoD specs overtuned and oppressive... you should go and play them. Maybe you havent ironed out their weakness yet, because most of them have VERY VERY apparent designflaws that can be abused.

Your mileage may vary.

 

 

I think this is a difference of perspectives because to me vindi will always be a nightmare, however I do feel most of my frustration is due to just having one dodge and being more or less forced to take lynx runes for the 25% movement speed, which is no longer an advantage now, but the baseline. Definitely feels like I can't keep up.

However yes you are right they have been rather swiftly dealt with when looked at in hindsight. I can agree to that. Hopefully Mirage buff is next alongside some cata nerfs as those two imo are the weakest and strongest pvp specs atm IMO.

Also ty for the different perspective and insight as I do not play tempest, so it's good to know that vindi has some nightmare match ups of it's own, and the most recent change to immob effecting them definitely has helped too.

 

 

On 12/22/2022 at 8:48 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Another interesting point for discussion. I have to chime in here. This is how I'd rank what's going on currently based on my own opinions, despite what metabattle.com says:

Defense Spellbreakers (S-), Bladesworn (A-), Warrior & Berserker (B+) ~ PoF being dominant for War

Guard Support (A), Willbender (A), Dragonhunter (B+), Firebrand (C+) ~ Core & EoD being dominant for Guard

Vindicator (S-), Herald (A), Revenant & Renegade (B-) ~ EoD being dominant for Rev

Tool Holo (A conquest/S+ 1v1s), Scrapper (A), Mechanist (B), Engineer (C+) ~ PoF being dominant for Engi

Daredevil (A), Specter (A-), Deadeye (A-), Thief (B+) ~ HoT being dominant for Thief

Untamed (A+), Soulbeast (A+), Condi Druid (A+), Ranger (B+) ~ has equally distributed values

Harbinger (A), Reaper (A-), Scourge (B+), Necromancer (B+) ~ EoD slightly pulls ahead here

Chronomancer (A+), Virtuoso (A-), Mesmer (A-), Mirage (B+) ~ HoT is strong for burst and hold currently

Catalyst (S), Tempest (A+), Weaver (A-), Elementalist (B+) ~ EoD takes it for Ele

 

3x instances where EoD is clear choice to use

2x instances where PoF is clear choice to use

2x instances where HoT is clear choice to use

2x instances where it is debatable between EoD/PoF/HoT

 

Want to say thanks again kuz of this post and the above, definitely made me realize 99% of my frustration was coming from the one dodge limitation. I agree with this list a lot, however again, my only nitpick is with Mirage I'd say it would have no ranking now, so N/A. Simply because one dodge is just too punishing to actually learn the class for newer players IMO, and it is effectively a dead class as far as pvp goes atm. I'd also put virtu over chrono as A+ vs A- because chrono is significantly harder to learn and be effective with, but just IMO. Small stuff really. Chaining 5 sec invuls and blocks together is akin to 3yr olds learning that the triangle shape goes into the triangle hole.

 

But yeah, for Mirage, I play it sure, however I have seen maybe 20 mirages in pvp over the years, and literally only 1-2 of them have been power. I never see power mirage anymore, which sucks because it's one of the best pvp classes there is in terms of how you can interact with your both your team mates and opponents. It's very dynamic and offers a ton of creativity in how to approach pvp differently than most other classes.

 

I understand condi mirage was kitten, however I do not think it is the monster it once was now with all the new monster EoD specs at play. Before, Mirage Cloak itself was an absurd mechanic, but now it fits in line with pretty much anything that the EoD specs offer mechanics wise. IMO.

 

Anyways thanks you two  again, and happy holidays! Very cool discussion

Edited December 26, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[freakcoco.4287]

On 12/24/2022 at 8:37 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Because I have a certain fanbase in this forum that insists on clicking confused face no matter what I post.

It's the new trend in NA. Act like you don't understand facts & evidence when it's presented to you.

You know the meta of pvp forum!

 

😕

[Zekent.3652]

Scepter Weaver/Cata right is like PvE rotation and press W lmao

Invul, block, invul, block, invul, block, invul, invul, block, invul, block
 

[Sahne.6950]

9 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Scepter Weaver/Cata right is like PvE rotation and press W lmao

Invul, block, invul, block, invul, block, invul, invul, block, invul, block
 

i think you misspelled Virtuoso.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

24 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i think you misspelled Virtuoso.

To be fair, virtuoso won't deal any damage unlike scepter elementalist. I have screenshots of water trident dealing 9.5k and it's not good.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Sahne.6950]

17 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

To be fair, virtuoso won't deal any damage unlike scepter elementalist. I have screenshots of water trident dealing 9.5k and it's not good.

well... yes.