Tired Of Pepega Invuln Design Classes

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Black powder is the mistake.

blinds lasting 5s instead of 1-2s was a mistake

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

12 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524

Also I think an important thing to note here to ease frustration is the understand that the majority of the people here are not high end players and so do not understand game mechanics well enough to understand the issues at hand. They have to be explained thoroughly and simply and probably with video footage as well. More effort than its worth for sure, but just noting it.

Virtuoso is literally weaker in higher levels. Also this has to be the highest of horses I have seen in a very long time, very impressive, may I ask what you feed him?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

12 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It was quite apparent during the recent population decline that the forum had become 90% dominant with Gold 1 - 2 level feedback, when 3/5 threads posted were complaining about and only about Rifle Mechs. Meanwhile, in the semis & final rounds of ATs and any plat+ ranked game, Rifle Mechs are exploding on impact and dying in 2s each time they come off respawn.

Yeah it's true, most of this feedback is likely coming from players who have never fought a Shorts or a Grimjack or really just any P2+ veteran that actually knows how to optimize the use of these class kits.

 

I have basically always been plat 2+ on Mes (though I don't really play anymore), and in terms of Mesmer mechanics I know more than almost anybody - as an example, here you can see my video on Mirror Images delay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU3E72oX8rs

Also this is very ironic considering that Shorts thinks Mesmer is kitten, particularly Virtuoso, and I don't know if he was trolling but Grimjack commented on the last monthly grand finals "cata suckssssss".

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

12 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

And THIS is the core point to be made ^

All these people trying to argue in here need to take a step back and reevaluate what's being said.

What is being pointed out in this thread is that although adding more invulns to a class may quickly bolster it up combat wise to be able to compete against stronger classes, it creates an effect where the more invulns that are slapped onto it, the worse it gets at conquest node holding, and the more obnoxious & boring it gets for people to fight against it. It's just not a good design philosophy.

No one is saying anything about nerfing Eles & Mes into the ground, we're talking about better game design here. For example you've said several times now about replacing some invulns with blocks, which allows for counter play but also would allow an Ele to be better at holding a node.

Be aware that what would happen if you swapped Distortion to a block is that Mesmer would be further pushed into a bunker sidenode role and roamer Mesmer would become even less viable than it already is. Maybe you still want it, that's your prerogative, but I just want to make it clear that it would benefit the most obnoxious Mesmer builds the most.

Edited December 14, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

11 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This isn't the game failing to tell you what was happening. It told you very accurately. Likely the mes was running inspiration.

When you apply distortion to yourself, under inspiration, you also get aegis. If the mes was running blurred inscriptions as well:

 

-> Bladesong Distortion grants distortion, then Aegis. 

> Any signet press (including midnight) grants distortion, then Aegis. 

> Signet of illusions recharges Bladesong Distortion and gives you distortion, which gives you aegis (Probably.)

> Bladeturn Requiem is available for additional blocks. 

 

Distortion on virtuoso was a huge mistake. They should have focused on kite potential instead of just allowing it to facetank you, but alas we learned nothing from mirage and what happens when people can just opt out of damage situations. Pre distortion virt was a prime subject for giving portal back along with some mobility so they could be interactive. 

This is not true. Inspiring Distortion does not give you aegis on Distortion, it gives your allies (and only your allies) aegis on distortion. Another example of you guys not really knowing what you are talking about.

Edit: doesn't matter how many "confused emojis" you add, it's still simply wrong, you can test it yourself in-game in 30 seconds!

Edited December 14, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@agrippastrilemma.8741

This new 2023 virally spreading NA argument tactic where people act like they can't understand what other people are saying to them is something people use when they have no real statement to make to create an actual argument or debate.

You've ran me in circle after circle now, making me explain the same things to you over and over in different ways, while you insist that I am being vague and you can't understand what I'm saying to you. All the while in truth, you are the one who vaguely hasn't made any actual statements or taken any stances on the discussion's topic, as well as being the only one participating in this thread discussion that apparently can't understand what is being talked about. The only thing you've done is point at and pick through literally every single thing I've said in attempts to find contradictions or ways to misrepresent what I've said as to make it look incorrect. That's not holding a discussion or a debate, that's common heckling.

But rest assured, from the previous 4 pages of this thread, it has become quite obvious that you are a Mesmer main representing biased class defense who definitely understands what's being talked about judging from the statements you choose to attack, who is choosing the route of injecting my statements with logical fallacies in hopes to misrepresent what I've said, rather than making your own statements to let us know where you stand concerning the topic of discussion. Probably because you are wise enough to know that your statements would be argued against by every other person in this thread, which is something you'd rather avoid.

If you want to step up and make some actual statements on where you stand here "Mesmer is fine" "Mesmer needs buff" "Here are my views about this topic" then we can hold a discussion or debate. If you can't do this, I am done talking to you.

I do also want to point out to you that you actually did tell us that you were a "Mesmer main that doesn't really play the game anymore." I don't understand how under this premise, you seem to believe that your knowledge of what's going on is current.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

This is not true. Inspiring Distortion does not give you aegis on Distortion, it gives your allies (and only your allies) aegis on distortion. Another example of you guys not knowing what you are talking about.

Okay, fair enough on the Inspiring Distortion part.
It's still a lot to stack distortion on top of aegis for virt and leads to a repeat of the issue we had with mirage, which is the majority of the point I was making. That detail being incorrect doesn't change the argument significantly, but I will concede that trait reading was wrong. 

[Stallic.2397]

6 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's not that simple. But if you insist on me giving some off the top of my head feedback, I'd say this:

1. Conjured Weapons no longer lay an extra weapon at your feet. You get one cast, use it wisely. This way Ele stacks can't binge on each other's 2nd weapons 

 

As long as the CD is decreased to 30 and it becomes a ammo skill. 2 charges

[Sahne.6950]

9 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

• Conjured Weapons no longer lay an extra weapon at your feet. You get one cast, use it wisely. This way Ele stacks can't binge on each other's 2nd weapons.
• The #5 invuln on CES should be downgraded into more like Endure Pain, where although it makes you immune to physical, you can still take condi damage and be CC'd.
• The massive amount of anti-projectile uptime that Ele pumps out needs to be cut by a good 25%.

w00w00ww00w....

Thats not what i signed up for!

 

CES not being pickable twice is a hard nerf to the Conjurer Trait. :C 

 

Antiprojectileuptime.... meh..... i can see why you want that 😄

 

 

Every Invuln  -> Block.

Every Spec gets 1 Unblockable CC to create Counterplay to the blocks.

 

^Thats what i signed up for!     

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

w00w00ww00w....

Thats not what i signed up for!

 

CES not being pickable twice is a hard nerf to the Conjurer Trait. :C 

 

Antiprojectileuptime.... meh..... i can see why you want that 😄

 

 

Every Invuln  -> Block.

Every Spec gets 1 Unblockable CC to create Counterplay to the blocks.

 

^Thats what i signed up for!     

Yeah, I already pointed out to that guy that the reason why I didn't make suggestions is because I wasn't an Ele main, but he insisted on repeatedly asking me for suggestions, so I gave him a few off the top of my head.

Definitely not claiming that my suggestions were the best suggestions.

It was more about entertaining the integrity of the discussion.

[Sahne.6950]

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah, I already pointed out to that guy that the reason why I didn't make suggestions is because I wasn't an Ele main, but he insisted on repeatedly asking me for suggestions, so I gave him a few off the top of my head.

Definitely not claiming that my suggestions were the best suggestions.

It was more about entertaining the integrity of the discussion.

yeah yeah i saw that 😄

just wanted to add my "mustard" ontop 😄

 

Your not too far off with your suggesntions tho....  Altho every ele main hates to admit it.... the antiprojectile is a liiitle over the top xD  A Tempest with Conjurertrait and focus can maintain close to 100% uptime. It only has gotten so worse lately, because everyone and their dog is running projectiles.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Okay, fair enough on the Inspiring Distortion part.

To be fair I also thought the mesmer would get aegis LOL but I've played inspiration only when chrono didn't have distortion... and a single stack of aegis is not something you really notice when you're invulnerable anyway

[Sahne.6950]

11 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Ele doesn't have invuln that lets you attack during it

uhm what? 😵  This isnt right, no biggie. We all make mistakes in the heat of passion...

BUT HOW ON EARTH DID THIS BRAINFART GET 2 UPVOTES? AND WHY IS NO ONE TELLING HIM OTHERWISE?    

 

You can literally cast everything thats instantaneous..... You can cast all of the sceptre air Spells, You can cast magnetic wave, you can swap attunements, you can cast auras, You can  invuln inside your overloads....You can even activate Primordialstance while you are invuln...... You can use Lavaskin while you are invuln...... theres alot you can do actually to hurt people while at the same time not being targetable 😅

 

Activating Lavaskin + Primordial stance + invuln, and running into the midfight, melting everyone with 2 Pulsing AOE effects, altho your invuln, is probably the biggest offender....

 

"Ele doesn't have invuln that lets you attack during it"        And the only reaction is 2 upvotes.... HOLY MOLY🤢

Edited December 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

53 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

To be fair I also thought the mesmer would get aegis LOL but I've played inspiration only when chrono didn't have distortion... and a single stack of aegis is not something you really notice when you're invulnerable anyway

 

Tooltips are a mess. Sometimes  "grant X boon to allies" includes you, and sometimes it doesn't. Though the trait does say "other" so in hindsight maybe I should have checked before making that assertion. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah, I already pointed out to that guy that the reason why I didn't make suggestions is because I wasn't an Ele main, but he insisted on repeatedly asking me for suggestions, so I gave him a few off the top of my head.

Definitely not claiming that my suggestions were the best suggestions.

It was more about entertaining the integrity of the discussion.

 

^ that but just mentioning in general conjured weapons aren't broken anymore. Earth shield nerf was fine and the other weapons are dps and really active. I think you want eles to pick up the damage ones more often, not less. 

Also idk if this is helpful info or not but  Conjure Earth Shield isn't Fortified Earth. - 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@agrippastrilemma.8741

This new 2023 virally spreading NA argument tactic where people act like they can't understand what other people are saying to them is something people use when they have no real statement to make to create an actual argument or debate.

I don't know what this means, I'm not in NA, it's not 2023, I'm not following some sort of "trendy argument tactic".

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You've ran me in circle after circle now, making me explain the same things to you over and over in different ways, while you insist that I am being vague and you can't understand what I'm saying to you. All the while in truth, you are the one who vaguely hasn't made any actual statements or taken any stances on the discussion's topic, as well as being the only one participating in this thread discussion that apparently can't understand what is being talked about. The only thing you've done is point at and pick through literally every single thing I've said in attempts to find contradictions or ways to misrepresent what I've said as to make it look incorrect. That's not holding a discussion or a debate, that's common heckling.

I haven't just "attempted" to find contradictions, I've succeeded at multiple points. There is an easy way to shield yourself from this, which is to make better and more accurate points in the first place, or at least elaborate and specify instead of trying to pretend as if you said something from the start which you did not. I've done no misrepresenting, stop making things up.

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

But rest assured, from the previous 4 pages of this thread, it has become quite obvious that you are a Mesmer main representing biased class defense who definitely understands what's being talked about judging from the statements you choose to attack,

Again, I've made more concrete nerf suggestions to Mesmer than you ever have. Stop lying.

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

who is choosing the route of injecting my statements with logical fallacies in hopes to misrepresent what I've said,

No such thing has been done.

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

rather than making your own statements to let us know where you stand concerning the topic of discussion.

I've asked you so many concrete questions and asked you to specify what it is you have a problem with rather than just "Mesmer". Your complaints are so vague as to include everything from invuln, evade, block, projectile denial, any sustain in general. At some points you emphasize invuln that can't be interacted with and at others stacking effects count just as much. Sometimes it is attacking while defending that is the issue, other times it is damage mitigation in general. You don't specify what builds/specs are problematic (cata, tempest, virt, chrono, mirage, spb?). At one time you complain about bunker chrono yet at another you claim you don't complain about bunker chrono. You made it seem like they recently added a bunch of new invuln effects that let you attack while defending when that isn't true (actually the opposite what with the nerf of Obsidian Flesh). You make it seem as if I ignored Vindi ("Furthermore, you seem to be encouraging the idea that Vindicators and Spellbreakers are somehow sustaining the way they do without invuln effects) when it was actually one of the things I brought up in my first comment. You try to say you haven't said anything about removals, when it literally says in the OP "Ele & Mes needs to lose some of the straight invuln effects". And so on and so forth.

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Probably because you are wise enough to know that your statements would be argued against by every other person in this thread, which is something you'd rather avoid.

This is precisely why you prefer making overly broad and vague statements so as to make them more difficult to conclusively challenge and then try to gaslight with "everyone knows what I'm talking about except you".

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

If you want to step up and make some actual statements on where you stand here "Mesmer is fine" "Mesmer needs buff" "Here are my views about this topic" then we can hold a discussion or debate. If you can't do this, I am done talking to you.

Consider taking my advice and being more accurate and specific instead so that it is possible to have a meaningful discussion instead of just saying "Mesmer has too much invuln" (in which you intermittently include everything from actual invuln to 'stacking effects'). You didn't even specify which specs/builds it is you have a problem with, kind of like if I would say "ranger has too much soft cc" when I actually mean "druid with Ancient Seeds has too much soft CC".

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I do also want to point out to you that you actually did tell us that you were a "Mesmer main that doesn't really play the game anymore." I don't understand how under this premise, you seem to believe that your knowledge of what's going on is current.

I keep up. Just haven't played these last few weeks. But yeah I knew I shouldn't have included that part (actually stopped and considered it when I wrote it) because of course you would be disingenuous and pounce on any irrelevant straws you could grasp. It has been made clear in this discussion that you have more misconceptions about this current game state than me particularly with regards to how strong Mesmer is.

Edited December 14, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

6 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Okay, fair enough on the Inspiring Distortion part.
It's still a lot to stack distortion on top of aegis for virt and leads to a repeat of the issue we had with mirage, which is the majority of the point I was making. That detail being incorrect doesn't change the argument significantly, but I will concede that trait reading was wrong. 

Funny thing is I have already said I want aegis on Bladesongs removed long ago. Yet me clearing up inaccuracies about Mesmer and the game in general in this thread gets me branded as a biased Mesmer main defender or whatever, in this thread. Just wonderful.

[Sahne.6950]

10 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I am obviously talking about things like Distortion or pre-2020 Obsidian Flesh, don't be dense.

Besides trevor said "Catalyst is clearly the culprit we are talking about", so I would assume we are talking about meta Cata here which only has 1 strict invuln which is stationary in Earth Shield so you cannot do most of those things you mention except swapping attunements (otherwise you need to drop Earth Shield which would cancel the invuln).

need to be more precise then, cuz you said ELE.... you didnt say "Meta Hammer Catalyst".

Hammer catalyst indeed cant use anything while hes invuln.   But every other ele build can.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Hammer catalyst indeed cant use anything while hes invuln.   literally every other ele build can.

Which invuln are you talking about

[Sahne.6950]

8 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Which invuln are you talking about

obsidianflesh and Fortify.  Both allow you to cast spells that are instant, They also dont cancel effect that are already on you like Primordialstance or Lavaskin.

you can even activate primoridalstance while you are invuln.....  you can activate shockaura while stunned, so you can stun, and then transition to your own offense...    You can apply weakness while your are invuln, so even after the invuln you wont get hurt.... you can apply blinds..... you can lightningflash during your invulns   you can invuln in your overloads.... you can cast waterelemental, activate invuln and the elemental will heal you 8k while you are invuln...   yada yada....

There is alot of things ele can do besides, "standing there and being invuln".

Edited December 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

13 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

obsidianflesh and Fortify.  Both allow you to cast spells that are instant, They also dont cancel effect that are already on you like Primordialstance or Lavaskin.

you can even activate primoridalstance while you are invuln..... 

Can't do much in Earth Shield considering exiting the shield will cancel the invuln but anyway, just a friendly word of advice, when people talk about "Invulns that you can attack during" they are pretty much always talking about the likes of Distortion and old Obsidian Flesh. With your definition there is no invuln in the game you can't attack during.

Quote

you can activate shockaura while stunned, so you can stun, and then transition to your own offense...

Yes, you can use instant skills during other animations/effects/cc in this game, on every class.

Edited December 14, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Sahne.6950]

4 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Can't do much in Earth Shield considering exiting the shield will cancel the invuln but anyway, just a friendly word of advice, when people talk about "Invulns that you can attack during" they are pretty much always talking about the likes of Distortion and old Obsidian Flesh.

Your right with fortify, you cant use the sceptre air skills, but i can use the other things, and just do the sceptre things during obsidianflesh.

 

good thing Primordialstance is a Utilityskill so you can acitvate it even with the shield... good thing you can activate Lavaskin before picking up the shield and it will keep pulsing.... good thing you can overload while holding the earthshield, pulling them in with the 4, and then invulning in it....  with sceptre, You can even use fortify on fire, right at the end, you swap weapon, cast pheonix at your feet and cancel the animation with a roll, swap earth during the roll and invuln again, wihtout a single frame inbetween where you can be hit. If you play power, you can literally burst while chaining your  2 invulns..... There is SOOO many shenanigans a ele can do with his invulns...    

But hey... your right.. i cant use my lightning in Earthshield.

 

I mean....Whatever floats your boat, m8. 

But im pretty sure when people talk about Invulns that you can attack during... they mean things that are actually possible right now... for example things like a Weaver running at you with 2 pulsing effects while being invuln.....  

but hey.... if you think everyone is still blabbering about Obsidianflesh from 50 balancepatches ago....     you do you.

 

This isnt even the main topic here... its not about things you can do while invuln... its about invuln having literally 0 counterplay, while at the same time being a unviable mechanic for Conquest.... which is poor design according to alot of people.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Spellhunter.9675]

Someone was upset about forum beign flooded with gold1-2 players and their suggestion. 

And here we are having plat2+ players mocking each other in this thread.

[Sahne.6950]

2 minutes ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Someone was upset about forum beign flooded with gold1-2 players and their suggestion. 

And here we are having plat2+ players mocking each other in this thread.

accurate 😂

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

OH BOYY YOUR RIGHT! i cant use the sceptre air skill while holding the Earthshield... as a 10 years ele main i totally forgot.... /s Your right with fortify, you cant use the sceptre air skills, but i can use the other things, and just do the sceptre things during obsidianflesh.

good thing Primordialstance is a Utilityskill so you can acitvate it even with the shield... good thing you can activate Lavaskin before picking up the shield and it will keep pulsing.... good thing you can overload while holding the earthshield, pulling them in with the 4, and then invulning in it....  with sceptre, You can even use fortify on fire, right at the end, you swap weapon, cast pheonix at your feet and cancel the animation with a roll, swap earth during the roll and invuln again, wihtout a single frame inbetween where you can be hit. If you play power, you can literally burst while chaining your  2 invulns..... There is SOOO many shenanigans a ele can do with his invulns...     You can even heal from 10-100 without being targetable.....

But hey... your right.. i cant use my lightning in Earthshield.

I mean....Whatever floats your boat, m8. 

But im pretty sure when people talk about Invulns that you can attack during... they mean things that are actually possible right now... for example things like a Weaver running at you with 2 pulsing effects while being invuln.....  

but hey.... if you think everyone is still blabbering about Obsidianflesh from 50 balancepatches ago....     you do you.

You are simply wrong. Go ask Boyce or Naru or Zeromis or Grimjack or Drazeh or whoever else "Can you attack during Earth Shield #5 invuln?" and they will say no. This is commonly understood. Again, by your logic there is not a single invuln in the game you can't attack during.

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

But this isnt even the main topic here...

I agree, but you are the one who wrote a multiple paragraph seething post supposedly calling me out for not knowing that you can use certain instant skills during animations and that pulsing effects remain after you invuln, thinking you were actually doing something. Here it is: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1818293

Edited December 14, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741