So... the Firebrand changes weren't anywhere near enough

[Seventh Ranger.3968]

Title says it all. Firebrand still feels awful to play after the massive nerfs (because let's be honest, it wasn't a rework, it was a nerf in disguise). I totally get and agree with the idea of limiting people's ability to do everything at once, and I actually like the idea of tomes being less powerful but more accessible, kind of like Engi kits, but they woefully undertuned everything when they made the changes. Renewed Justice needs to be given back its old functionality of giving a page back on Firebrand. I'd be perfectly fine if that included reverting the cooldown reduction to 20% per kill as well. Also just in general all the tomes need better ways of generating extra pages when staying in the same tome. Either Swift Scholar needs to be buffed, or the grandmaster traits need to include some extra way of generating more pages. Resolve and Courage tomes are almost back in a good spot, but playstyles that used Renewed Justice, and focused on damage feel MASSIVELY weaker than before, even with the recent page cost reductions. Anet, you had a good idea, but you need to execute it better. Don't just nerf Firebrand across the board, make sure these changes end up being ONLY a nerf to people using all the tomes at once to get excessive value out of hybrid builds.

[Antina.5973]

To be honest, this change was pretty good, not perfect, but baby steps.

Playing as DPS you can do sort of tome rotation, if you do exactly what you did before rework (25412 or alike) you can still do that, and even end with one page, next time you enter tome, you have to be more conservative on pages, but it's perfectly fine to do sth like 245 in tome, which uses 3 pages, and refunds one from Swift Scholar. You have a bit more leeway to use some of the tomes utility.

There are some problems like Renewed Justice which in the past either refunded tome or one page, this doesn't do anything interesting now and a few more. However in my opinion that's not the main issue here.

When we look at details, from a more UX perspective, we see that, we... don't see.

1. internal cooldowns of traits like Quickfire
2. unknown recharge of page (no indication if we get new page)
3. the old tome CD number is gone, now it's just blue/red(what an un-guardian colour to use! make it gray plis)
4. cooldowns of skills in tome are hard to track

Let's start from top to bottom:

1 - Internal cool-down of trait's like Quickfire is a problem across all specs and professions, so probably the most clear one. Before the rework it was a bit easier since this trait was not used in almost any build, so we didn't feel that toll.

2 - Recharge rate of pages - now let's skip the point if 8/6 seconds is enough, I wanna focus on the UX/UI. With thief we get it much faster, but with 8 seconds it's a while, especially in a fight. Some sort of visual indicator what "what point" is the page regen would be beneficial. Also maybe just make the newly refreshed page pip pop and glow brighter blue for a second, so we have a visual indication we got a new page? This would help because in some cases it's fairly easy to track cooldown of skills in tome by counting pages we get. 2 pages = 16 seconds, so with perfect alacrity in a strike/raid we should have a 20sec skill offCD, like Ashes of the Just, which matters for us on DPS roles.

3 - What we had before was a CD number on tome saying how much time is left, not the button is red (which is just awfully unGuardian colour, but let's just pretend it's gray or other shade of blue. I know accessibility is important, but red on guardian is like making reaper skills pink). So we lost the easy to access information on when tome's activation effect is offCD. It is accessible by hovering with mouse over effect, but that's just way worse than straight up number on skill. This is an easy fix, let's just bring the number back on Tome skills at least for now.

4 - The biggest issue in my opinion, skill CDs in tomes. We don't know at what point our Epilogue is, we could try tracking pages we got, but as mentioned in point 2 it's rather hard. We could use a skill with similar cooldown and try to pair those assuming we don't need e.g. Unbroken Lines as situational thing. It's bad or awful either way. We become blue engineers, but books be our kits.

Maybe gime us an option to mark our "important skill in tome" as in track one. The way it would work is, we all know that we can mark a skill to be autocasted, recently this was also added to pet skills. In a similar way we could just mark a skill in a kit and then use some typical cooldown indicator - the filling border around edges of Tome/Kit to indicate the state that skill is at. Easy to use for all that want it, should be fairly okay to implement (?) and stays optional, we don't force it on anyone.

Or let us optionally turn on debuff icons like the dormant tome indicator and just have 20 more icons on buff bar, if we choose to. This is probably fine assuming as some point we get a UI rework to buffs, so maybe let's not do it.

While I don't think either of those are a perfect solution it might be universal for all kits (as in Tomes and Engi Kits).

[Gaiawolf.8261]

I like the idea of a moving line around the Tome icon that shows the recharge of the tome skills. Just like how the mantra skills show ammo recharging. It could start with showing the shortest CD, and then go around again for the next skill until all skills in the tome are recharged. Then it flashes and disappears. 

Also the red debuff icon over the utility skills is unnecessary now that the the Tome icon changes color when the debuff is active. It's just clutter now. 

[Thron Stal.9367]

It's crap

[zealex.9410]

Cfb will be benching 40k and qfb will be benching around 36k, i dont see how thats weak.

 

That being said they more the buff page generation the more fb will return what what it used to be, aka having acess to everything.

[Seventh Ranger.3968]

5 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Cfb will be benching 40k and qfb will be benching around 36k, i dont see how thats weak.

 

That being said they more the buff page generation the more fb will return what what it used to be, aka having acess to everything.

That's why they should specifically buff page refunding for using pages in the same tomes, rather than just page generation overall. Especially for Justice, since it used to be so much more accessible for damage builds. 

[zealex.9410]

10 hours ago, Seventh Ranger.3968 said:

That's why they should specifically buff page refunding for using pages in the same tomes, rather than just page generation overall. Especially for Justice, since it used to be so much more accessible for damage builds. 

And how do you keep track then of the pages each tome has? Unless you mean smth else but then again the end resupt would be the same wouldng it, you would still do the same rotation in tome one get out and have a simiar if not bigger amount of pages to used whenever.

[Niks.2934]

I dont understand why people keep talking how the FB sucks. No he doesnt. You just cant adapt that quickly and maby you dont like change. With this new rewerks, i feel him even more stronger then before. And more fun to play. Stop complaining and start exploring new gameplays. :))

[zealex.9410]

1 hour ago, Niks.2934 said:

I dont understand why people keep talking how the FB sucks. No he doesnt. You just cant adapt that quickly and maby you dont like change. With this new rewerks, i feel him even more stronger then before. And more fun to play. Stop complaining and start exploring new gameplays. :))

There are 2 crowds (maybe 3) one thinks its output is weak, these ppl are wrong, the second liked the old rotation better and they find the new one less fun (understandable), finally the third like that fb could go into all 3 tomes and liked the support dps gameplay, this rework happened to get away from that so no matter how ppl feel thats likely not comming back.

[Dreams.3128]

While I definitely trying to break my hands out of the muscle memory rotation I had before the rework, I can't agree with the fact FB is, well, bad. It still does its job, still can carry groups no problem, and still can upkeep boons. The only issue I ran into really is aegis and stability generation since I'm used to certain tomes having that there to readily spam. Obviously, can't do that anymore, so definitely requires a lot more attention than usual. Though, my experiences may be different because I still utilize celestial firebrand through t4s and strikes while using HqBrand in CMs. 
 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

55 minutes ago, Dreams.3128 said:

While I definitely trying to break my hands out of the muscle memory rotation I had before the rework, I can't agree with the fact FB is, well, bad. It still does its job, still can carry groups no problem, and still can upkeep boons. The only issue I ran into really is aegis and stability generation since I'm used to certain tomes having that there to readily spam. Obviously, can't do that anymore, so definitely requires a lot more attention than usual. Though, my experiences may be different because I still utilize celestial firebrand through t4s and strikes while using HqBrand in CMs. 
 

I don't think anyone said the new HFB was bad. The change was almost universally accepted or even welcomed by HFBs.*

It sucked for QFB, and even CFB, that struggled to get good use out of their fun Tome of Justice skills. Even this was mostly a problem for fun factor, character concept, or playability, not damage. The damage output was even better than before; it was just janky/unfun to play or didn't fit the theme.

*Except a few posts I saw complaining about Tome 3 page costs in wvw, and the nigh-useless F3-1 skill now.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Gaiawolf.8261

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

And how do you keep track then of the pages each tome has? Unless you mean smth else but then again the end resupt would be the same wouldng it, you would still do the same rotation in tome one get out and have a simiar if not bigger amount of pages to used whenever.

One of the ideas floating around is having Swift Scholar trigger every 2 skills rather than every 3 skills in Tome of Justice if you have Quickfire. So it's still the same number of pages, but you're encouraged to stay in ToJ for longer.

Granted, that proposal was made while ToJ had skills that cost 2 pages to use. Combining that with all skills requiring 1 page would possibly lead to undesirable effects. (Or it could just encourage going 5-4-2-1, since coming out with two pages down means you know when to go back in, which would probably be good for gameplay as long as it doesn't push DPS too high).

Edited December 15, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Dreams.3128]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I don't think anyone said the new HFB was bad. The change was almost universally accepted or even welcomed by HFBs.*

It sucked for QFB, and even CFB, that struggled to get good use out of their fun Tome of Justice skills. Even this was mostly a problem for fun factor, character concept, or playability, not damage. The damage output was even better than before; it was just janky/unfun to play or didn't fit the theme.

*Except a few posts I saw complaining about Tome 3 page costs in wvw, and the nigh-useless F3-1 skill now.

Ah, okay, that makes more sense. I thought people were saying that ALL FB variants were bad due to the changes that tomes received. While, I'll say it does feel more..clunky (if that's the right word), it could've felt A LOT worse. I'm glad they only just did this and are going back to try to tweak how QFB and CFB feels.

Though, I imagine due to FB still being in a solid spot through PVE means, they are probably going to take a bit of time to make it feel as smooth as its predecessor once was.

[Thron Stal.9367]

8 hours ago, Niks.2934 said:

I dont understand why people keep talking how the FB sucks. No he doesnt. You just cant adapt that quickly and maby you dont like change. With this new rewerks, i feel him even more stronger then before. And more fun to play. Stop complaining and start exploring new gameplays. :))

yes it does, I cast two pieces and its all on cooldown...junk

[Hallow.7368]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:04 AM, Seventh Ranger.3968 said:

Title says it all. Firebrand still feels awful to play after the massive nerfs (because let's be honest, it wasn't a rework, it was a nerf in disguise). I totally get and agree with the idea of limiting people's ability to do everything at once, and I actually like the idea of tomes being less powerful but more accessible, kind of like Engi kits, but they woefully undertuned everything when they made the changes. Renewed Justice needs to be given back its old functionality of giving a page back on Firebrand. I'd be perfectly fine if that included reverting the cooldown reduction to 20% per kill as well. Also just in general all the tomes need better ways of generating extra pages when staying in the same tome. Either Swift Scholar needs to be buffed, or the grandmaster traits need to include some extra way of generating more pages. Resolve and Courage tomes are almost back in a good spot, but playstyles that used Renewed Justice, and focused on damage feel MASSIVELY weaker than before, even with the recent page cost reductions. Anet, you had a good idea, but you need to execute it better. Don't just nerf Firebrand across the board, make sure these changes end up being ONLY a nerf to people using all the tomes at once to get excessive value out of hybrid builds.

how was the change a nerf condi fb is sitting at 40k dps now. which is extremely good. different fb builds are extremely effective now at whatever the goal of the build is instead of being a broken "do everything" class.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Hallow.7368

[otto.5684]

12 hours ago, Niks.2934 said:

I dont understand why people keep talking how the FB sucks. No he doesnt. You just cant adapt that quickly and maby you dont like change. With this new rewerks, i feel him even more stronger then before. And more fun to play. Stop complaining and start exploring new gameplays. :))

Sure it deals more damage, and could be better in some scenarios. However, gameplay wise it is significantly worse, cuz most the changes did not address the offending issues. As result qfb and cfb are better in group setting, in pve. In any other PvE situation sustain took a nose dive. In spvp it still garbage. It is worse in every place except in grouped pve, which was the area that it needed some nerfs in to begin with (not the damage the support).

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Hallow.7368 said:

how was the change a nerf condi fb is sitting at 40k dps now. which is extremely good. different fb builds are extremely effective now at whatever the goal of the build is instead of being a broken "do everything" class.

It was primarily a nerf to the class's versatility (intended), and it's sustain in open world and wvw (not sure how much of this was intended). It was never a nerf to straight dps, although the playstyle for CFB and QFB also took a nosedive initially. The December 13 patch helped bring some fun back to the Tome of Justice damage rotations. 

[Thron Stal.9367]

On 12/16/2022 at 6:11 AM, Hallow.7368 said:

how was the change a nerf condi fb is sitting at 40k dps now. which is extremely good. different fb builds are extremely effective now at whatever the goal of the build is instead of being a broken "do everything" class.

It's called support not attack.....

[Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096]

I'd rather have my charges back to being tome-dependant, rather than the crap we have now.
I legit cannot play my Firebrand the way I literally built her to play anymore. Apparently 'flexibility' is something you punish now. Apparently now I'm punished for... uhh..

*checks notes*

Using my profession mechanic and centralizing around it?
Punished for playing my class? Gotcha.

This is honestly the first time I've ever uninstalled a game due to a patch. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its not the damage that's the problem, its the flow. This is why I switched to Bladesworn in Fractals, because the class has a nice, even flow to it in every situation. Firebrand may have a high bench, but go and see how well it feels to play that, since you're just a button pressing machine on CFB and QFB now.

 

The class was definitely over the top, and nerfs are good, but you need to restore the flow.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Just my 2 coppers, I at first didn’t like the change but adjusted my build and now I love it. HOWEVER, the glaring issue I have so far is the cooldowns. This is just like Revenants. We’re getting double penalized for using our skills in which for FB’s it’s page cost and cd instead of energy cost and cd. 
 

Oh and also, please give back the flipping tome opening animation!!

Edited January 4, 2023 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Gehenna.3625]

On 12/29/2022 at 9:58 PM, Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096 said:

I'd rather have my charges back to being tome-dependant, rather than the crap we have now.
I legit cannot play my Firebrand the way I literally built her to play anymore. Apparently 'flexibility' is something you punish now. Apparently now I'm punished for... uhh..

There is some irony in here because actually inflexibility is punished here: inflexibility to adapt to a new paradigm.

On 12/29/2022 at 9:58 PM, Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096 said:

Using my profession mechanic and centralizing around it?

Now, I do sympathize with this. I remember when they took the draconic measure for Soul Reaping in GW1 (the 15 seconds thing). The reason for this (and get this) is that the Necro/Rit was too powerful. Yes, the necro was nerfed in it's entirety because one dual class option was too powerful. There was little room for discussion for that though. And that's what's different here now I feel.

I find it interesting that you say "my profession mechanic". I'm curious what you mean by that, cause from my pov, it's still Anet's profession mechanic.

On 12/29/2022 at 9:58 PM, Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096 said:

Punished for playing my class? Gotcha.

MMOs change classes all the time and being punished for "playing your class" is something that's more common than you might think. Just think of all the complaints about competitive modes where some classes shine more than others. And also in PvE group content where some classes are not wanted because of their lower output.

On 12/29/2022 at 9:58 PM, Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096 said:

This is honestly the first time I've ever uninstalled a game due to a patch. 

Well that only makes sure that you're not going to get used to the new paradigm. In the end there's still some work to be done in finishing off the FB changes, so it still makes sense to comment about specifics. You're not giving yourself that opportunity, because I think that this change for tomes is going to stay, but the specifics are still up for change. 

For me, I still want to see some changes in the page regeneration speed and some attributes like Renewed Justice be more meaningful. I mean, what's the point of having the dormant status removed, instead of getting extra pages? And the grandmaster trait relating to the tome of justice is totally unequal to the other two. Perhaps they should change the three to getting a higher speed of recovery of pages while in the appropriate tome and that Loremaster is the only one that does it at all times, for example.

So my point is, are you sure you want to quit? Or perhaps come back and add to the discussion about these types of specifics. You indeed cannot play your FB anymore the way you used to...but perhaps you can find a new way that makes it fun for you again... but then you should find out what specifically doesn't work for you in the new paradigm.

Just my 2 cents.

[Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096]

On 1/5/2023 at 7:27 AM, Gehenna.3625 said:

 

Are you seriously dissecting the entirety of my post just because I vented frustration and are trying to dismiss everything I said?

The part that doesn't work for me now is the fact that the abilities have a multiple-page cost (several abilities) and now it's shared across all three tomes. I built my character entirely around the idea of mainly rotating between the three tomes with some of the main-hand axe attacks+focus abilities sprinkled in between. Add to that the Renewed Focus(?) Elite that reset all the cooldowns for the tomes and I was happy.
Now I cannot rotate between the tomes. Now there is legit no way for me to recover my old FB playstyle. The class mechanic's been turned into something that's been nerfed so hard (in my opinion) that /For me at least/ it's a matter of "Literally why bother now?" Now I have so few charges that I would actively avoid even touching it.

I would have been fine if they nerfed the abilities a little bit. But the way they reworked the charges is horrendous. The main problem is as I stated/ that the pages aren't tome-dependent, AND that some abilities cost more than one page.

Also, please. Don't be so asinine and pedantic about the way I speak about my profession's mechanic. Good grief.

So I gave you my reasons. Are you going to dissect this completely too and dismiss it?