Eir's Bow Isn't A Plot Hole

[mandala.8507]

This has been a common criticism of the story within the community for a while now and it's bothered me since its conception, so I wanted to explain a few things to help people get their heads around what the true narrative purpose of Eir's bow was throughout the story, but especially in regard to its role during the Icebrood Saga.

Obviously, we're talking spoilers here; not gonna mark half the post up.

For the anti-literary crowd, it's as simple as this: back in the bitterfrost frontier, Braham not only blessed the bow with the ancient Jotun fire magic, but also himself, evidenced by the line, "For the might of the fire lives in my heart and in this bow. No chill will extinguish its light."

This is why he can sense destroyers in Champions and also why, even without the bow, the Spirits of the Wild recognize him as the Norn of Prophecy capable of challenging Jormag. The might of the fire, which Primordus is also intimately connected to, resides within Braham. The bow was never necessary for him to fulfill the prophecy.

Okay, now we'll take a step out of the purely literal into the literary. Eir's bow has always been a symbol of Braham's feelings for his mother and his emotional tether to her legacy. Recall, he started using the bow during Heart of Thorns after her death to honor her and also as a means for the studio to swap his profession to dragonhunter, an activity which would become his primary focus for the majority of his arc up through the conclusion of Dragonstorm.

A Crack In The Ice gives extra significance to the bow, but not in the way most people think. By using the bow to crack the Fang of the Serpent, Braham made Eir's bow a symbol in-universe of ultimate power against the dragons. Its value as a symbol also becomes its primary utility.

Bangar invites Braham to the convocation of the Charr in order to steal the bow and use it (as a symbol) to the rally the Charr behind him as he heads North to attempt to wake and somehow subjugate Jormag.

Charr, as we know, are obsessed with weapons that symbolize great power. You've got Rytlock and Sohothin as well as Smodur (and other Charr)'s quest for the Claw of the Khan-Ur, which in Charr lore symbolizes the strength to unite the legions under one supreme Charr leader, as examples.

So, when Ryland steals the bow from Braham and gives it to Bangar, Bangar is then able to wield the symbolic might of the Norn of Prophecy through the bow to leverage the destabilization of the Charr Legions' balance of power.

Braham didn't actually lose his connection to the power of that prophecy or to the real strength of his mother's legacy residing in him, he just lost the emotional tether catalyzing the strength he gained for himself through his own actions and convictions. His mission then becomes to correct this mistake and reclaim what he believes to be the source of his power to combat Jormag.

Without the bow, Braham is forced to face his other mistakes without the emotional protection of the power of prophecy, necessitating the rekindling of his ability to rely on the people around him and of the dormant spirituality he forsook after the death of his father planted resentment for the culture and faith that took one of his parents away from him and that couldn't protect the other.

Again, Eir's bow is primarily a symbol. Braham not only made it a symbol of his mother's legacy, but a continuation of Aesgir's as well by following in his footsteps in seeking out the power of ancient fire to empower it.

He didn't need it to find Wolf and start on the true path toward fulfilling his role as a Norn of Prophecy. He didn't need it to wrangle the lost spirits and defeat Drakkar.

The bow also became a symbol of Braham's shortcomings as our ally and friend when Bangar used it to almost kill the Commander. In that moment, it was like watching himself hit us with that arrow. Luckily, he was able to channel the rage from seeing his greatest current companion harmed by his mistakes to unlock his transformation powers, becoming the wolf and getting us out of there alive.

Interestingly, Braham is a symbol of Rytlock's lost fatherhood in this moment, being the son of his companion that he mentored like a father, now brutally disfiguring the cub he abandoned...but that's another story entirely.

The bow becoming irrelevant isn't an error, it's the whole point of the story.

Kasmeer summarizes this idea succinctly when she disputes the notion that this was all Braham's unwilling destiny to become the Norn of Prophecy. She says, "it's your choices and your actions that mattered, Braham. They're what made you who and what you are."

Eir's bow was the symbol of the Norn's legacy, his mother's legacy, and seemingly of Braham's own power as a culmination of all of those things funneled through it, but the real power was Braham the whole time and the strength gained from the choices he made. He just had to choose to believe it himself and stop relying on the crutch that was his sentimental connection to the legacies of others over his own legend.

I'd even say the disposition that made him the perfect vessel for the Norn's prophecy was present all the way back in season 1 when he confronts Knut, the descendent of Aesgir, about his decision to do nothing and remain safe in Hoelbrak instead of helping the people of Cragstead. Where Knut urged Braham to tell them to flee and fight another day, Braham chose to act and put a stop to the problem there and then, which ends paralleling the difference between him and Aesgir as Norn (Norns?) of Prophecy. Aesgir inevitably retreated to safety, whereas Braham fought with the intention of never coming home if he had to.

Constantly in the Icebrood Saga, people and their convictions are the source of true strength, whereas raw power ends up being all for naught.

Anyway, just a brief and sloppy takedown of one of the many wild misconceptions about the lore people have.

Thanks for reading.

[Jimbru.6014]

I'm curious as to what happened to Eir's bow. Much like Magdaer, Eir's bow has disappeared after getting into the hands of NPCs who are now dead (Ryland) or indisposed (Bangar survived Jormag's death but hasn't been seen since -- presumably he's in a the deepest hole of a Charr prison that Crecia and Malice could find for him). I can imagine Braham saying something like, "My mother's bow? Well, I wouldn't mind having it back if anyone ever finds it. Family heirloom and all. But then again, given what it started, maybe it's better lost."

Edited December 27, 2022 by Jimbru.6014

[ugrakarma.9416]

Bangar Ruinbringer: What—? No. The bow. Where's the—

Rytlock Brimstone: Ryland—!

Ryland Steelcatcher: You told me the bow was to rally the charr. You said you would never use it on Jormag.

Bangar Ruinbringer: The bow is leverage. Nothing more.

Ryland Steelcatcher: Now you want to corrupt the norn Spirits, to wield their power against Jormag. Seems you need a lot of leverage.

Bangar Ruinbringer: Stand down.

Ryland Steelcatcher: No, you're right. Sir. These Spirits do have a use.

Braham Eirsson: NO! C'mon, we need to free them!

Bangar Ruinbringer: What do you think you're doing, Tribune?

Ryland Steelcatcher: Waking up our dragon.

Bangar Ruinbringer: It's not OUR dragon.

Crecia Stoneglow: Ryland, you have to stop! If Jormag wakes, there's no going back!

Ryland Steelcatcher: That's the POINT!

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/One_Charr,_One_Dragon,_One_Champion

Edited December 27, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

8 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

The real plot hole is: why bangar used the bow against commander, but not used it to try subjulgate jormag on "jormag rising"?

Also Ryland have the bow when transformed, i didnt remember when ryland "steal" the bow from bangar:

 

SPOILERS FOR ICEBROOD SAGA

Bangar never intended to use the bow against Jormag, it was just a rallying call. Bangar was hearing Jormag's voices and thus never intended to try and hurt Jormag in the first place, he was being played by Jormag the entire time. This is why the Claw of the Kodan said "I fear their leader hears a voice that is not his own".

Edited December 27, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[ugrakarma.9416]

Just now, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Bangar never intended to use the bow against Jormag, it was just a rallying call. Bangar was hearing Jormag's voices and thus never intended to try and hurt Jormag in the first place, he was being played by Jormag the entire time. This is why the Claw of the Kodan said "I fear their leader hears a voice that is not his own".

i edited while u replied, because i was checking wiki. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

23 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

For the anti-literary crowd, it's as simple as this: back in the bitterfrost frontier, Braham not only blessed the bow with the ancient Jotun fire magic, but also himself, evidenced by the line, "For the might of the fire lives in my heart and in this bow. No chill will extinguish its light."

This is why he can sense destroyers in Champions and also why, even without the bow, the Spirits of the Wild recognize him as the Norn of Prophecy capable of challenging Jormag. The might of the fire, which Primordus is also intimately connected to, resides within Braham. The bow was never necessary for him to fulfill the prophecy.

I'm rather doubtful Braham enchanted himself, otherwise he'd be able to do as Aesgir did and just kittening punch any icebrood and one-shot it, or physically harm Jormag. But hey couldn't.

And there is zero relation between the jotun scroll and Primordus' corruption - it does not explain why he could all of a sudden sense destroyers in the second half of IBS, with zero prompting or build-up, when he couldn't before. And yeah he was in the same areas as destroyers before the DRMs.

A Crack in the Ice episode was primarily about Jormag and the Spirit of Fire. Our mastery was tied to the Spirit of Fire, the kodan were constantly talking about it, Taimi talked about how powerful and ancient it was, and the jotun scroll was found in the same region the Spirit of Fire was being nurtured by the kodan. Literary devices were set up pretty blatantly to make it turn out that Aesgir was using the Spirit of Fire to damage Jormag, thus giving us a method to kill Jormag without either Taimi's Machine or pitting Jormag directly against Primordus which Taimi was outright calling a very bad idea in that same season.

 

The entire premise of your post - that Braham was enchanted by the jotun scroll and thus connected to Primordus by this scroll - is simply unfounded.

And in no way relates to whether or not Eir's Bow is a plothole, since the bow had absolutely no connection to the Norn of Prophecy situation in the first place - as that entire scenario was invented in the story after Braham lost the bow. There was no prophecy, no "Norn of Prophecy", until Wolf mentions it in IBS Episode 2. Before then, it wasn't a prophecy but a test of might that was connected to cracking the tooth. Go ahead and read Edge of Destiny or search all the dialogues in Hoelbrak tied to the tooth - or even the discussion in Season 3 Episode 3. Zero mention of a prophecy in relation to that tooth (only prophecy talked about in Hoelbrak, as far as I remember, is the one about Knut's death).
It was not a prophecy that whomever cracked the tooth would slay Jormag. It was the norn keeping the youth craving for glory from marching to their deaths by using the tooth as a purely mundane measuring stick - after all, even the most rambunctious of norn wouldn't think they can defeat Jormag if they can't even chip its tooth.

 

And that is the plothole. Not the bow - but the prophecy itself, which the bow had no relevance to.

And Braham suddenly sensing destroyers without explanation.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Bangar Ruinbringer: What—? No. The bow. Where's the—

Rytlock Brimstone: Ryland—!

Ryland Steelcatcher: You told me the bow was to rally the charr. You said you would never use it on Jormag.

Bangar Ruinbringer: The bow is leverage. Nothing more.

Ryland Steelcatcher: Now you want to corrupt the norn Spirits, to wield their power against Jormag. Seems you need a lot of leverage.

Bangar Ruinbringer: Stand down.

Ryland Steelcatcher: No, you're right. Sir. These Spirits do have a use.

Braham Eirsson: NO! C'mon, we need to free them!

Bangar Ruinbringer: What do you think you're doing, Tribune?

Ryland Steelcatcher: Waking up our dragon.

Bangar Ruinbringer: It's not OUR dragon.

Crecia Stoneglow: Ryland, you have to stop! If Jormag wakes, there's no going back!

Ryland Steelcatcher: That's the POINT!

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/One_Charr,_One_Dragon,_One_Champion

Additionally:

Braham Eirsson: Since we're all playing nice, how about you return my bow. You know, the one you stole.

Ryland Steelcatcher: Now, why would I hand you a weapon you think can hurt Jormag? "Act first, think later," right?

Gorrik: I mean...

Ryland Steelcatcher: Don't worry. I'll keep it safe for you.

Braham Eirsson: Oh, I'm getting it back.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordus_Rising

[Jimbru.6014]

I have a different take on Braham and the prophecy.

In the real world, every now and then, a con artist starts a religious scam. A new church or cult or whatever with himself at the head and the object of personal gain. It goes well for a while, gaining followers, gaining money, gaining whatever. Until one day, a critical moment comes that makes the scammer realize that the scam has grown beyond his control. The scammer has enemies ready to kill him and/or a horde of followers ready to kill for him. If he admits the lie to his followers, he'll be strung up within the hour. He has become just as much a subject to the scam as his followers. He's in too deep, and all he can do now is play out his role as "prophet" or whatever, along for the ride until however it ends.

This is exactly what the Norn "prophecy" was, at least at first. It was a fairy tale that Norn elders and the Spirits of the Wild created to keep the Norn from endangering themselves against Jormag. Then Braham came along, believing in the prophecy like most Norn do, and had the stones to actually start fulfilling it. The instant that Braham cracked Jormag's tooth, everyone that had been keeping the secret of the fake prophecy was in too deep. Revealing the secret was not an option; imagine the crisis among the Norn if they found out the Spirits had been lying to them all this time. So the Spirits of the Wild had to support Braham and actually MAKE him the "Norn of Prophecy" when he was really just a big goober that stumbled into the role.

As for how Braham could suddenly "feel" the Destroyers and other such things, that was just the Spirits of the Wild doing their thing. No need to take a deep dive when there's a simple explanation. Raven works in mysterious ways and loves every minute of it.

Oh, and one last thing: it seems pretty clear to me that the "Spirit of Fire" is Koda. But eh...half the fun of lore diving is the speculation anyway.

[Arthelad.5418]

You make some interesting points.

1. Braham sensing destroyers is a bit ruffled, but if you think about it, it can be of 2 reasons: the scroll is drawing him to the destroyers, he is being guided by the literal prophecy (aka its more of a force that makes things happen, a self fufilling prophecy) or the blessings that the spirits gave him lead him to complete the prophecy. But the answer seems to be in either the first or the third. Most likely the first. But what is the scroll magic exactly? Well, we know that the jotun used the mystic telescope to foresee the elder dragons rise, so it would make sense that they would make weapons to defend themselves, like, a scroll with the power to hurt a dragon. It's possible that it was lost, but jormag or one of its minions found it and sent in way up north for it to be secured. But thats just a theory. So yes, in theory, if the jotun used some of primordus' magic and sealed it in a scroll, its entirely possible that this is why braham senses destroyers.

2. I like your interpretation of the bow as a symbol of eir's legacy and braham's mistakes. I would just like to add something else. Many people missed this, but in shadow in the ice, when you wake up in the EotN, Aurene says: Why Braham, you have hair again! Some would think it's a gag, but it's actually a representation of braham growing as a character. When eir dies, braham shaves his head. Him growing it back symbolizes that he's grown over the death of eir and him carying her legacy.

3. I really like the conclusion. Icebrood saga is a tragic story of loss, power, war and hope. Rytlock killing his son with the very blade he sought instead of his family but gaining the son he never had in braham, Ryland seeking to prove himself and eventually seeking purpose in jormag's power, only to lose everything in the end beacuse he was consumed by his desires and rage, contrasted with braham, who lost his mother, his bow, his guildmates, his honor, but still willing to sacrifice everything to save his friends, and being rewarded with life and a legend worthy of being sung for centuries. Ironic that Jormag manipulated each and every single one of us, like putting all the pawns in place, only for him to be a puppet of the prophecy. Icebrood saga has its flaws, but i think the good parts are some of the best story content we got for gw2.

[Arthelad.5418]

2 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

I have a different take on Braham and the prophecy.

In the real world, every now and then, a con artist starts a religious scam. A new church or cult or whatever with himself at the head and the object of personal gain. It goes well for a while, gaining followers, gaining money, gaining whatever. Until one day, a critical moment comes that makes the scammer realize that the scam has grown beyond his control. The scammer has enemies ready to kill him and/or a horde of followers ready to kill for him. If he admits the lie to his followers, he'll be strung up within the hour. He has become just as much a subject to the scam as his followers. He's in too deep, and all he can do now is play out his role as "prophet" or whatever, along for the ride until however it ends.

This is exactly what the Norn "prophecy" was, at least at first. It was a fairy tale that Norn elders and the Spirits of the Wild created to keep the Norn from endangering themselves against Jormag. Then Braham came along, believing in the prophecy like most Norn do, and had the stones to actually start fulfilling it. The instant that Braham cracked Jormag's tooth, everyone that had been keeping the secret of the fake prophecy was in too deep. Revealing the secret was not an option; imagine the crisis among the Norn if they found out the Spirits had been lying to them all this time. So the Spirits of the Wild had to support Braham and actually MAKE him the "Norn of Prophecy" when he was really just a big goober that stumbled into the role.

As for how Braham could suddenly "feel" the Destroyers and other such things, that was just the Spirits of the Wild doing their thing. No need to take a deep dive when there's a simple explanation. Raven works in mysterious ways and loves every minute of it.

Oh, and one last thing: it seems pretty clear to me that the "Spirit of Fire" is Koda. But eh...half the fun of lore diving is the speculation anyway.

Interesting, but there are some flaws in here. Jormag knows the prophecy, the spirits know it and the norn know it. If the spirits and shamans (all of them) decided to make a story about the norn of prophecy to keep the norn safe, then that would actually have the opposite effect, and it did. Norn would actively seek ways to grow their legends and go to war. Also, if thats the case, why do ox, eagle, wolverine and especially owl know about this whole prophecy? Let's say that the spirits could talk to ox, eagle and wolverine, if in a limited manner since their corrupted. Then what about owl? Every single one of them would think owl is dead. But owl knows the prophecy too and she doesn't know from jormag since she cut herself of from any connection possible and locked herself in the ice citadel without jormag knowing.

But there IS something like you said. It's revealed that Aesgir personally spoke to jormag after their battle and was given 2 choices. Either continue and watch more norn die or get the tooth and lie to them and lead them south to a sanctuary. This is found in his personal journal.

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

But there IS something like you said. It's revealed that Aesgir personally spoke to jormag after their battle and was given 2 choices. Either continue and watch more norn die or get the tooth and lie to them and lead them south to a sanctuary. This is found in his personal journal.

And this is what I found a bit messy. I like that particular development - that Asgeir wasn't truly a triumphant hero that beat back Jormag, but was instead actually carrying out a scam with Jormag. Yes, that scam was in service of saving the norn from certain extinction while simultaneously presenting Jormag as someone not to be trifled with, but the tooth and the legend are still a scam.

I just think it would have made for a better story if there was a difference between what the major Spirits of the Wild and the lost Spirits said about the prophesy, to give the scam even more narrative significance:

1. Bear/Wolf/Raven/Snow Leopard would presumably be on the same page as Jormag and Asgeir, and would act as if the prophecy was actually a thing, for the same reason Asgeir told his people the whole fake story about fighting Jormag and getting a tooth out of them. The alternative is to watch the norn uselessly kill themselves on Jormag's fangs, so they played along and concocted a whole unfulfillable prophecy to discourage such attempts.
2. Wolverine/Ox/Eagle, being corrupted by Jormag yet still retaining some of their original agency, would be compelled by Jormag to play along as well. However maybe they'd show signs of struggle - maybe it would sound for a brief moment like they want to say something else to us in their own voice, but then they end up spitting out the same "yeah prophecy is legit" lines in a voice with echoes of Jormag's popping in here and there. After all, their voices are not their own.
3. Owl would have no clue what you're on about. "Prophecy? Shut your big norn mouth and put me back under so Jormag can't eat me like the rest of them!" We could pass it off as Owl just being under extreme duress and not really having the luxury of addressing less immediately pressing matters, but her seemingly total lack of concern for the "prophecy" would be discomforting at the very least.

I think this would have been a nice little extension of the dark eldritch horror mystery theme that was so tantalizingly dangled in front of us for Bjora. All signs superficially point to the prophecy being real and worth pursuing, but there are disturbing hairline fractures in the story we were initially led to believe. It could have culminated in a mea culpa from the main Spirits, who (when confronted after the scam is revealed over the course of IBS) would just shrug and say what @Jimbru.6014's idea is: "yeah well it started as a nice fake story to keep you nornlings from Jormag, but then Braham just had to go and break the tooth... and it just snowballed from there. Time to put your money where your mouth is, 'norn of prophecy', we'll do what we can to help but who really knows how it'll go."

  

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Before then, it wasn't a prophecy but a test of might that was connected to cracking the tooth.

I agree with this characterization of the tooth thing, and thus agree that ANet changed it post-hoc. However, I consider this a forgivable stretch. I wish I had a clear objective reason for having this position, but everything I tried to write out turned out to be just my subjective judgment of what is acceptable/unacceptable. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Arthelad.5418]

52 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

 

1. Bear/Wolf/Raven/Snow Leopard would presumably be on the same page as Jormag and Asgeir, and would act as if the prophecy was actually a thing, for the same reason Asgeir told his people the whole fake story about fighting Jormag and getting a tooth out of them. The alternative is to watch the norn uselessly kill themselves on Jormag's fangs, so they played along and concocted a whole unfulfillable prophecy to discourage such attempts.
2. Wolverine/Ox/Eagle, being corrupted by Jormag yet still retaining some of their original agency, would be compelled by Jormag to play along as well. However maybe they'd show signs of struggle - maybe it would sound for a brief moment like they want to say something else to us in their own voice, but then they end up spitting out the same "yeah prophecy is legit" lines in a voice with echoes of Jormag's popping in here and there. After all, their voices are not their own.
3. Owl would have no clue what you're on about. "Prophecy? Shut your big norn mouth and put me back under so Jormag can't eat me like the rest of them!" We could pass it off as Owl just being under extreme duress and not really having the luxury of addressing less immediately pressing matters, but her seemingly total lack of concern for the "prophecy" would be discomforting at the very least.

If ox, eagle and wolverine just say and do things as jormag wants them, then why would they give braham their powers to slay drakkar and the commander their idols to be able to go in the citadel and try to prevent bangar from awakening jormag? Jormag themselves say that the prophecy is a fantasy in champions so that we would stop seeking the prophecy and join them. Wouldn't it be better for them just to say that trough the spirits if they have control over them?

 

Owl whole thing is that she sealed herself off from anything and everything so that she wouldn't end up like the lost spirits of the wild (become a well of power for jormag). When braham released her, ryland in champions goes after her to corrupt her.Also owl DOES know about the prophecy. Champions Snowdren drift drm. Owl's final words are: "The wild together can direct the fall. You are the harness, norn of prophecy. Tell them" This tells us that she knows of the prophecy.

[Jimbru.6014]

5 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

Interesting, but there are some flaws in here. Jormag knows the prophecy, the spirits know it and the norn know it. If the spirits and shamans (all of them) decided to make a story about the norn of prophecy to keep the norn safe, then that would actually have the opposite effect, and it did. Norn would actively seek ways to grow their legends and go to war. Also, if thats the case, why do ox, eagle, wolverine and especially owl know about this whole prophecy? Let's say that the spirits could talk to ox, eagle and wolverine, if in a limited manner since their corrupted. Then what about owl? Every single one of them would think owl is dead. But owl knows the prophecy too and she doesn't know from jormag since she cut herself of from any connection possible and locked herself in the ice citadel without jormag knowing.

But there IS something like you said. It's revealed that Aesgir personally spoke to jormag after their battle and was given 2 choices. Either continue and watch more norn die or get the tooth and lie to them and lead them south to a sanctuary. This is found in his personal journal.

Exactly. The lie started when Aesgir and Jormag made their devil's bargain. Who exactly created the prophecy story afterwards isn't clear in the game lore, but we know the lie was known to at least some Norn elders since one of them tells us about it in game. The logical assumption is that Aesgir shared his secret with at least one of the elders, perhaps sort of like making confession -- can you imagine trying to carry that secret alone for the rest of your life? Then the "prophecy" story grew from there as a cover, with the real truth being known only to a select few because it would be the Norn's darkest secret for sure.

As for how the Spirits and Jormag knew of the prophecy: they're literally forces of nature. If they want to know something, they know. Even if you leave out the "they're gods" factor, the "prophecy" tale would have had 150-160ish years to spread among the Norn and their spiritual world before the start of GW2.

Heck, maybe the "prophecy" tale was Jormag's idea in the first place. I can well imagine Aesgir and Jormag making their deal, Aesgir wondering out loud, "How am I going to explain this when I get back?" and Jormag offering the suggestion, "Your people love legends. Why not create one?" Which ended up backfiring on Jormag eventually...a bit of irony, karma, or poetic justice, depending on how you look at it. The last one especially if  Aesgir deliberately wrote the story hoping that one day some blessed fool like Braham would try to fulfill it.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Jimbru.6014

[voltaicbore.8012]

10 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

If ox, eagle and wolverine just say and do things as jormag wants them, then why would they give braham their powers to slay drakkar and the commander their idols to be able to go in the citadel and try to prevent bangar from awakening jormag? Jormag themselves say that the prophecy is a fantasy in champions so that we would stop seeking the prophecy and join them. Wouldn't it be better for them just to say that trough the spirits if they have control over them?

I think you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. I'm NOT saying that what I listed is how it was or should be, they were merely what I thought might have been cool additions to the "the corrupted spirits are still struggling against Jormag" thing. As they actually did in IBS, they'd still be trying to help Braham defeat Drakkar and Jormag. Just when it specifically comes to the prophecy, they'd try to tell him that it really doesn't exist, but since "their voices are not their own," the moment they tried to say that, maybe they'd choke a bit and instead call Braham the "norn of prophesy" in a condescending way that audibly sounds a bit like Jormag's voice as we heard it for the first time through the Fraenir.

Same thing with Owl. OF COURSE she knows about the prophecy in game; as you quoted, she literally says it. Again, it was just a imaginary edit in my head that I was suggesting. It might have been cool for Braham to mention the prophecy, but have Owl be completely unconcerned with it. 

For me I just think these would have been nice subtle nods to the way Jormag manipulates people. Because as the story was actually delivered to us, we end up talking with corrupted Spirits, but there's no real reason to distrust what we heard from them - and that is what I considered to be a lost opportunity to tap into Jormag's terrifying ability to get inside our heads.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 12/27/2022 at 11:39 PM, Jimbru.6014 said:

This is exactly what the Norn "prophecy" was, at least at first. It was a fairy tale that Norn elders and the Spirits of the Wild created to keep the Norn from endangering themselves against Jormag.

The issue is that the first person to mention the prophecy is Wolf during IBS.
Before then - what the elders talk about - isn't a prophecy. It's just a test of might.
And it didn't stop people from trying to take on Jormag - people tried to chip the tooth left and right, and they went against the Dragonspawn and other minions of Jormag constantly. Edge of Destiny novel's entire first half is basically about the norn test of might, why it's important to the norn, and why it shouldn't be ignored. Zero prophecies involved, rather, it's more of a tale of caution.

On 12/27/2022 at 11:39 PM, Jimbru.6014 said:

As for how Braham could suddenly "feel" the Destroyers and other such things, that was just the Spirits of the Wild doing their thing. No need to take a deep dive when there's a simple explanation. Raven works in mysterious ways and loves every minute of it.

Honestly, this is what makes the most sense - specifically, that it was Wolf's blessing after the events of IBS Episode 2. It plays very similarly to the Wolf blessing skill from IBS in the Curse of the Nornbear mission: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Volfen_Bloodlust_(Curse_of_the_Nornbear)
We use this skill to track the nornbear who goes into hiding... just as Braham does for destroyers.

But unfortunately I do think the devs intended that as foreshadowing of the whole Champion of Primordus dealio. Which would have made a lot more sense if it turned out the Spirits of the Wild were actually tied to Primordus somehow, like he created them out of his mind before Torment/Void took him over and made him animalistic, or they were his last ditch effort to counter Jormag's manipulations among the Elder Dragon family, or something along those lines.

On 12/27/2022 at 11:39 PM, Jimbru.6014 said:

Oh, and one last thing: it seems pretty clear to me that the "Spirit of Fire" is Koda. But eh...half the fun of lore diving is the speculation anyway.

The kodan in Bitterfrost are pretty clearly distinguishing the Spirit of Fire and Koda, not to mention that the Spirit of Fire is a thing among the norn's folklore too, along with other "spirits of the world" like seasons, mountains, and darkness.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Egil_Fireteller

On 12/28/2022 at 3:16 AM, Arthelad.5418 said:

Interesting, but there are some flaws in here. Jormag knows the prophecy, the spirits know it and the norn know it.

Technically, the prophecy that Jormag talks about is completely different from the one the Spirits of the Wild and Braham talk about.
One prophecy, the "Norn of Prophecy", is that the one who chips the fang (tusk) of the serpent will "either kill Jormag or be killed by Jormag".
The other prophecy, Jormag's prophecy, is that "either Primordus kills Jormag, or Jormag kills Primordus".
Which is why Jormag doesn't pay any mind to Braham, because the Norn of Prophecy is irrelevant to the prophecy they knew and cared about.

The irony is that these are not prophecies. It's statements of fact. "If two people go into a death battle, one will survive and the other will lose" is not a prophecy.

And then the game cheekily goes "oh these two were actually the same thing" by making Braham the Champion of Primordus - except that it still isn't a prophecy, and it isn't "either or" but now "both" minus the intentional subversion of expectation as Tom Abernathy praised the writing for doing of Braham coming out alive when expecting people to think he'd die.

On 12/28/2022 at 3:16 AM, Arthelad.5418 said:

But there IS something like you said. It's revealed that Aesgir personally spoke to jormag after their battle and was given 2 choices. Either continue and watch more norn die or get the tooth and lie to them and lead them south to a sanctuary. This is found in his personal journal.

21 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

And this is what I found a bit messy. I like that particular development - that Asgeir wasn't truly a triumphant hero that beat back Jormag, but was instead actually carrying out a scam with Jormag. Yes, that scam was in service of saving the norn from certain extinction while simultaneously presenting Jormag as someone not to be trifled with, but the tooth and the legend are still a scam.

Technically, Aesgir's crime was only stopping the assault on Jormag and not talking about his deal.

It was the Great Spirits - Bear, Wolf, Raven, and Snow Leopard - that led Aesgir and the other norn south. Aesgir did not decide to go south.

And it was the Great Spirits who invented the prophecy, during IBS, not Aesgir, who as far as we know didn't even set up the test of might against the "Fang" of the Serpent.

21 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I agree with this characterization of the tooth thing, and thus agree that ANet changed it post-hoc. However, I consider this a forgivable stretch. I wish I had a clear objective reason for having this position, but everything I tried to write out turned out to be just my subjective judgment of what is acceptable/unacceptable. 

I think it would have been fine if it was introduced to Braham as a new thing, rather than something he and all norn should have known. How it was introduced:

Wolf Spirit: You are a norn of prophecy, but you are not yet true norn. Any can wear the wolf, but only true norn can become the wolf.

Braham Eirsson: You're saying if I do this, I'll be able to...become the wolf?

Wolf Spirit: Take the lost Spirits' power. Use it against Drakkar. Only then will you find a place for my spirit within your own.

And at this point everyone should be "... what kittening prophecy?" It played a backseat to the asinine and utterly irrelevant "Braham can't become the wolf... for some reason" subplot of Episode 2. And then Braham and the corrupted spirits talk about it as if it's an obvious thing later on:

Corrupted Wolverine Spirit: You fight for them. But not with them. You wish to fulfill prophecy to impress. To prove out of fear.

Braham Eirsson: I am Braham Eirsson. Norn of prophecy. It was me who cracked the Fang of the Serpent.

This is the first time Braham's hearing about "a norn of prophecy" and he instantly knows wtf the spirits are talking about. Nobody bothers to stop and ask, either about the prophecy, or why Braham has to kill Jormag's oldest and now-strongest dragon champion and herald in order to do something that literally any norn past puberty can do.

 

Adding the existence of a prophecy that only the Great Spirits knew about? I like that. And it makes Braham's whining in the Snowden Drifts DRM make sense. But a prophecy that everyone knew about retroactive when in every instance before it was a mere cultural test of might to keep people from marching to their deaths and/or pissing off an Elder Dragon? Bad, bad writing.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Arthelad.5418]

17 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I think you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. I'm NOT saying that what I listed is how it was or should be, they were merely what I thought might have been cool additions to the "the corrupted spirits are still struggling against Jormag" thing. As they actually did in IBS, they'd still be trying to help Braham defeat Drakkar and Jormag. Just when it specifically comes to the prophecy, they'd try to tell him that it really doesn't exist, but since "their voices are not their own," the moment they tried to say that, maybe they'd choke a bit and instead call Braham the "norn of prophesy" in a condescending way that audibly sounds a bit like Jormag's voice as we heard it for the first time through the Fraenir.

Same thing with Owl. OF COURSE she knows about the prophecy in game; as you quoted, she literally says it. Again, it was just a imaginary edit in my head that I was suggesting. It might have been cool for Braham to mention the prophecy, but have Owl be completely unconcerned with it. 

For me I just think these would have been nice subtle nods to the way Jormag manipulates people. Because as the story was actually delivered to us, we end up talking with corrupted Spirits, but there's no real reason to distrust what we heard from them - and that is what I considered to be a lost opportunity to tap into Jormag's terrifying ability to get inside our heads.

I don't really like the idea that the prophecy is fake. It doesn't sit right with me personally. But I agree, it would have been a nice touch to see the lost spirits have more corruption influences.

[Arthelad.5418]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The issue is that the first person to mention the prophecy is Wolf during IBS.
Before then - what the elders talk about - isn't a prophecy. It's just a test of might.
And it didn't stop people from trying to take on Jormag - people tried to chip the tooth left and right, and they went against the Dragonspawn and other minions of Jormag constantly. Edge of Destiny novel's entire first half is basically about the norn test of might, why it's important to the norn, and why it shouldn't be ignored. Zero prophecies involved, rather, it's more of a tale of caution.

Honestly, this is what makes the most sense - specifically, that it was Wolf's blessing after the events of IBS Episode 2. It plays very similarly to the Wolf blessing skill from IBS in the Curse of the Nornbear mission: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Volfen_Bloodlust_(Curse_of_the_Nornbear)
We use this skill to track the nornbear who goes into hiding... just as Braham does for destroyers.

But unfortunately I do think the devs intended that as foreshadowing of the whole Champion of Primordus dealio. Which would have made a lot more sense if it turned out the Spirits of the Wild were actually tied to Primordus somehow, like he created them out of his mind before Torment/Void took him over and made him animalistic, or they were his last ditch effort to counter Jormag's manipulations among the Elder Dragon family, or something along those lines.

The kodan in Bitterfrost are pretty clearly distinguishing the Spirit of Fire and Koda, not to mention that the Spirit of Fire is a thing among the norn's folklore too, along with other "spirits of the world" like seasons, mountains, and darkness.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Egil_Fireteller

Technically, the prophecy that Jormag talks about is completely different from the one the Spirits of the Wild and Braham talk about.
One prophecy, the "Norn of Prophecy", is that the one who chips the fang (tusk) of the serpent will "either kill Jormag or be killed by Jormag".
The other prophecy, Jormag's prophecy, is that "either Primordus kills Jormag, or Jormag kills Primordus".
Which is why Jormag doesn't pay any mind to Braham, because the Norn of Prophecy is irrelevant to the prophecy they knew and cared about.

The irony is that these are not prophecies. It's statements of fact. "If two people go into a death battle, one will survive and the other will lose" is not a prophecy.

And then the game cheekily goes "oh these two were actually the same thing" by making Braham the Champion of Primordus - except that it still isn't a prophecy, and it isn't "either or" but now "both" minus the intentional subversion of expectation as Tom Abernathy praised the writing for doing of Braham coming out alive when expecting people to think he'd die.

Technically, Aesgir's crime was only stopping the assault on Jormag and not talking about his deal.

It was the Great Spirits - Bear, Wolf, Raven, and Snow Leopard - that led Aesgir and the other norn south. Aesgir did not decide to go south.

And it was the Great Spirits who invented the prophecy, during IBS, not Aesgir, who as far as we know didn't even set up the test of might against the "Fang" of the Serpent.

I think it would have been fine if it was introduced to Braham as a new thing, rather than something he and all norn should have known. How it was introduced:

Wolf Spirit: You are a norn of prophecy, but you are not yet true norn. Any can wear the wolf, but only true norn can become the wolf.

Braham Eirsson: You're saying if I do this, I'll be able to...become the wolf?

Wolf Spirit: Take the lost Spirits' power. Use it against Drakkar. Only then will you find a place for my spirit within your own.

And at this point everyone should be "... what kittening prophecy?" It played a backseat to the asinine and utterly irrelevant "Braham can't become the wolf... for some reason" subplot of Episode 2. And then Braham and the corrupted spirits talk about it as if it's an obvious thing later on:

Corrupted Wolverine Spirit: You fight for them. But not with them. You wish to fulfill prophecy to impress. To prove out of fear.

Braham Eirsson: I am Braham Eirsson. Norn of prophecy. It was me who cracked the Fang of the Serpent.

This is the first time Braham's hearing about "a norn of prophecy" and he instantly knows wtf the spirits are talking about. Nobody bothers to stop and ask, either about the prophecy, or why Braham has to kill Jormag's oldest and now-strongest dragon champion and herald in order to do something that literally any norn past puberty can do.

 

Adding the existence of a prophecy that only the Great Spirits knew about? I like that. And it makes Braham's whining in the Snowden Drifts DRM make sense. But a prophecy that everyone knew about retroactive when in every instance before it was a mere cultural test of might to keep people from marching to their deaths and/or pissing off an Elder Dragon? Bad, bad writing.

The test of might is about the norn who can crack the fang. The prophecy is about how the norn that cracked the fang will go on to either slay jormag of fall to jormag.

 

Wolf Spirit: Now. You are all wondering why I've called for you.

Braham Eirsson: He has a plan to stop Drakkar using the lost Spirits of the Wild.

Braham Eirsson: Sorry, you probably wanted to say that.

<Character name>: But Cloudseeker was certain—

Wolf Spirit: The kodan ignore our voices. They cannot speak to Ox, Eagle, or Wolverine. But Braham can.

Braham Eirsson: Why me?

Wolf Spirit: You cracked the Fang of the Serpent. Fate now decrees you will either slay Jormag or fall to Jormag.

[...]

Wolf Spirit: You are a norn of prophecy, but you are not yet true norn. Any can wear the wolf, but only true norn can become the wolf.

Braham Eirsson: You're saying if I do this, I'll be able to...become the wolf?

Wolf Spirit: Take the lost Spirits' power. Use it against Drakkar. Only then will you find a place for my spirit within your own.

 

Braham can piece out from this that he's the norn of prophecy. Also saying that it's a prediction is a bit wrong. It's a prophecy that says that the outcome is inevitable. One of them has to die. From what I understand it isn't about how one will win, it's about how they WILL go to conflict and one of them WILL die.

 

Also Braham doesn't deal the final blow directly but he does make decisions which have major consequences . Braham awakens Primordus and he grows his power by atacking locations across tyria and fighting icebrood. Him awakening Primordus is the biggest thing here. He also does it intentionally to kill Jormag. It could be argued that Braham uses Primordus to kill jormag, like a using a hound to kill a deer. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

The test of might is about the norn who can crack the fang. The prophecy is about how the norn that cracked the fang will go on to either slay jormag of fall to jormag.

The test of might is about how norn who want to take on the task of killing Jormag won't stand a chance if they can't even crack the fang (which got retconned into a tusk).
They're both about the same thing. If you crack the fang, you can stand a chance against Jormag but might still die fighting them.

4 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

Braham can piece out from this that he's the norn of prophecy. Also saying that it's a prediction is a bit wrong. It's a prophecy that says that the outcome is inevitable. One of them has to die. From what I understand it isn't about how one will win, it's about how they WILL go to conflict and one of them WILL die.

And if they simply don't fight? If Braham just remained in Elona or Hoelbrak instead of returning to the north? Then the outcome is no longer inevitable. It's not a prediction, but it is a simple fact: if two people fight to the death, either one or the other will die. This is no prophecy or prediction. And if they don't fight to the death, neither will die.

As far as prophecies go, it's little different than saying "and the sun will rise the next morning".

And it's also interesting to note that Wolf says a norn of prophecy, but ever after that, Braham goes the Norn of Prophecy.

4 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

Also Braham doesn't deal the final blow directly but he does make decisions which have major consequences . Braham awakens Primordus and he grows his power by atacking locations across tyria and fighting icebrood. Him awakening Primordus is the biggest thing here. He also does it intentionally to kill Jormag. It could be argued that Braham uses Primordus to kill jormag, like a using a hound to kill a deer. 

Which ironically means that Braham did what Bangar (and before that, Kudu + many other Inquest) set out to do - control an Elder Dragon - which we had spent 10 years being told isn't possible.

And even got praised as making a heroic sacrifice by Rytlock and the Commander for doing that.

(If it isn't clear enough, I really dislike the "logic" of Braham plot in IBS.)

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And it's also interesting to note that Wolf says a norn of prophecy, but ever after that, Braham goes the Norn of Prophecy.

Which ironically means that Braham did what Bangar (and before that, Kudu + many other Inquest) set out to do - control an Elder Dragon - which we had spent 10 years being told isn't possible.

And even got praised as making a heroic sacrifice by Rytlock and the Commander for doing that.

Except he didn't control Primordus, and even the Spirits of the Wild tell him this isn't possible.

The whole "how do you stop an avalanche" question. You don't, you can't control Primordus. The Spirits of the Wild couldn't do it, and Braham couldn't do it either. All he can do is focus the path of destruction more directly to Jormag... a target Primordus was already going to go after anyways. He couldn't make Primordus stop its actions entierly, he couldn't stop the Destroyers from popping up all over the place and destroying things, he couldn't make Primordus only attack the targets he wanted, all he really did was lure it more directly to Jormag.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Arthelad.5418]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

And if they simply don't fight? If Braham just remained in Elona or Hoelbrak instead of returning to the north? Then the outcome is no longer inevitable. It's not a prediction, but it is a simple fact: if two people fight to the death, either one or the other will die. This is no prophecy or prediction. And if they don't fight to the death, neither will die.

As far as prophecies go, it's little different than saying "and the sun will rise the next morning".

And it's also interesting to note that Wolf says a norn of prophecy, but ever after that, Braham goes the Norn of Prophecy.

Which ironically means that Braham did what Bangar (and before that, Kudu + many other Inquest) set out to do - control an Elder Dragon - which we had spent 10 years being told isn't possible.

And even got praised as making a heroic sacrifice by Rytlock and the Commander for doing that.

(If it isn't clear enough, I really dislike the "logic" of Braham plot in IBS.)

Thats the thing. The prophecy says that Braham won't sit around, but that he will go on the joruney of trying to kill jormag. And if Braham just decided to not go north, (if him going north isn't part of the prophecy) then prophecy would have found another way of him going back. Hey, maybe he didn't want to go until Bangar summoned us. Fate is wierd.

 

Braham did try to control him although what he did was to use the spirits of the wild to guide him, not control him directly. Thats also the very reason why raven and snow leopard were there. To make Primordus manipulatable and fixed on Jormag. Primordus would eventually go after Jormag, they did this so he wouldn't burn innocent villages most likely. Bangar didn't have this. He only went in with pride and thinking he can do things like these easily with only his wits and without a plan. Also we ourselves manipulated dragons. Kralkatorrik when we baited him in the auditorrium is a good example.

 

Braham got praised beacuse if he didn't do what he did, there would be a lot more dead(Jormag's frozen). And jormag would only get more powerful if Primordus wouldn't have woken up since he would be able to freeze more and more villages and cities, giving him the advantage and ruining the cycle. Also there are no mentions of braham going after innocents, only after Jormag hordes.

 

Councilor Vark: Fire and ice forces are clashing with increasing frequency. The death toll is staggering. It will only get worse.

 

If Braham wouldn't have woken up Primordus its pretty clear there would have been bad things that would happen. "But both Primordus and Jormag died at the end. Why couldn't Aurene handle it?" Beacuse Jormag would have lost his weakness if he killed Primordus and Aurene is shown't incapable of using other dragon magic types, only manipulate ley lines. Even if she tried to, most probably Primordus' energy would have gone south as well as we see in the finale. So yeah, Braham waking Primo up was beneficial.

 

Also Wolf calling him "a norn of prophecy" can be interpeted in diferent ways. One of them is "a norn of prophecy" meaning that he could have said that he is a norn that is also of prophecy, instead of one of the multiple norn of prophecy.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Arthelad.5418
small corrections

[mandala.8507]

For what it's worth, my headcanon is that the prophecy about either Braham or Jormag having to die is a bit of a fib by the Spirits of the Wild.

They put their faith and trust into Asgeir for him to ultimately fall to Jormag's powers of persuasion. It's really cool how they wrote his lore book "A Burden" in Bjora. He's coping really hard to try to justify his motivations and decisions, but his fear, disappointment, and corrupted voice shine through the piece.

The more you read, the less you believe him when he says he did all this for his people; until eventually, the reality of the situation slips out as he identifies himself as the liar while also claiming that Jormag's voice was telling the plain truth. As the Kodan would say, "his voice was not his own," at least in the moment where he chose to retreat and feed Jormag's lies to the rest of the Norn.

The Spirits then played along with the plan and added their own lie that the Norn of Prophecy would have to succeed or perish in order to ensure the next person they sent forth to face the dragon was both physically prepared by having some means to wound Jormag and also wholly committed to slaying the dragon at any cost, thinking they would be killed if things went any other way.

Belief, even in something that started out as a lie, can be a powerful thing. For all we know, the Norn's belief in that lie was powerful enough to make the prophecy come to life and embed itself within the hearts of all the spirits. Fate manifest.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

Thats the thing. The prophecy says that Braham won't sit around, but that he will go on the joruney of trying to kill jormag. And if Braham just decided to not go north, (if him going north isn't part of the prophecy) then prophecy would have found another way of him going back. Hey, maybe he didn't want to go until Bangar summoned us. Fate is wierd.

And yet, early depictions of prophecies dictate that they are not set in stone, that the future - to quote the Pale Tree - "can change in the blink of an eye".

Which is why it isn't really a prophecy, it's just an analytical deduction of an obvious fact - if the two fight, one or the other will die.

The prophecy technically doesn't enforce that they will fight.

7 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

Braham got praised beacuse if he didn't do what he did, there would be a lot more dead(Jormag's frozen).

But it isn't that - or rather, that is never brought up in relation:

Rytlock Brimstone: What Braham did. What he's let himself become. Kid's a warrior.

Efram Greetsglory: He's controlling the pure destruction and hunger of the raging flame—that's no small feat.

<Character name>: We need him... Is he up to it? The leash he had those destroyers on was shaky.

Efram Greetsglory: It was a leash, nonetheless. They came to his call and followed at his heels.

Rytlock Brimstone: He's running them like a wolf pack.

<Character name>: And what's the cost? We can't let this go on. He's struggling, and he's suffering.

Rytlock Brimstone: Yeah, he is—for us. For all the right reasons, Commander.

He's just being praised because he's managing to control the destroyers in some form of self-sacrifice. The destroyer forces were weakened by that point, and most of the issue came from the Icebrood instead. It isn't shown on-screen, but as you quoted and mentioned elsewhere, Braham himself killed hundreds personally because of his "self-sacrifice".

In other words, he's being praised for controlling Elder Dragon forces and just that. You can infer additional things, but that's all that's actually said.

7 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

And jormag would only get more powerful if Primordus wouldn't have woken up since he would be able to freeze more and more villages and cities, giving him the advantage and ruining the cycle. Also there are no mentions of braham going after innocents, only after Jormag hordes.

The thing is... Primordus was already waking up. Braham didn't force Primordus awake - just made it happen a little faster. Jormag would have gotten a bit stronger, but not significantly so.

7 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

"But both Primordus and Jormag died at the end. Why couldn't Aurene handle it?" Beacuse Jormag would have lost his weakness if he killed Primordus and Aurene is shown't incapable of using other dragon magic types, only manipulate ley lines. Even if she tried to, most probably Primordus' energy would have gone south as well as we see in the finale. So yeah, Braham waking Primo up was beneficial.

This is objectively false, as End of Dragons fully and perfectly shows Aurene managing all five Elder Dragon magics during the Dragon's End meta.

7 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

Also Wolf calling him "a norn of prophecy" can be interpeted in diferent ways. One of them is "a norn of prophecy" meaning that he could have said that he is a norn that is also of prophecy, instead of one of the multiple norn of prophecy.

That kind of feels like stretching it. Seems more that IBS just suffered more than just Champions due to higher ups forcibly shifting development focus onto EoD, rendering even as far back as Episode 2 lessened in writing quality. And/or the writers of Episode 2 simply didn't know that it wasn't a prophecy, and just falsely assumed and figured it'd be objectively known among norn.

[Jimbru.6014]

10 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

Also Wolf calling him "a norn of prophecy" can be interpeted in diferent ways. One of them is "a norn of prophecy" meaning that he could have said that he is a norn that is also of prophecy, instead of one of the multiple norn of prophecy.

My take is that there was no singular designated "THE Norn of Prophecy" because as I stated earlier, the whole "prophecy" thing was a lie from the start. As Braham himself says during the Snowden DRM, "I didn't ask to be the Norn of kitten Prophecy!" And then Kasmeer and the Kodan point out to him that it was his actions and choices that put him in the position. Which to me says clearly that Braham wasn't the destined THE because there never was one; his  actions and choices just happened to fit the role. Which once that happened, the Spirits had no choice but to oblige and support him, because revealing the lie was never an option.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Jimbru.6014

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

My take is that there was no singular designated "THE Norn of Prophecy" because as I stated earlier, the whole "prophecy" thing was a lie from the start. As Braham himself says during the Snowden DRM, "I didn't ask to be the Norn of kitten Prophecy!" And then Kasmeer and the Kodan point out to him that it was his actions and choices that put him in the position. Which to me says clearly that Braham wasn't the destined THE because there never was one; his  actions and choices just happened to fit the role. Which once that happened, the Spirits had no choice but to oblige and support him, because revealing the lie was never an option.

The Claw actually says he was always destined to become the Norn of Prophecy because of fate or whatnot. Kasmeer says what she did because she stopped believing in fate and divine calling after her meeting with Kormir in PoF.

Their dialogue there is much more reflective of their own personality and belief, rather than anything about Braham and the prophecy.

And as mentioned before: there was no prophecy beforehand. It was just a "test of might" - Wolf was the one who introduced the prophecy in IBS. The Spirits didn't have no choice but to oblige and support him, they very much could have never mentioned the prophecy because the prophecy didn't exist until they brought it up to Braham in IBS.

Which is why - shoddy writing aside - Braham whines about not asking to be the Norn of Prophecy - because when he proactively decided to fire that arrow and take on Jormag, he was completely unaware of any prophecy's existence. No norn was aware of such a prophecy.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Brycar.2651]

I agree with the original post, Braham did infuse himself with fire magic

 

what I don’t get is when it is all said and done I would expect Braham to still insist on getting the bow back. After all in my Norn personal story my own character has a whole story arch on reclaiming a family heirloom which was stolen when I got too drunk at a moot. Sound familiar?