What classes for a lore friendly Norn shaman?

[nobleboivin.4102]

I would love to make a Norn shaman.  Specifically for the raven but I'd also like to throw in a bit of yennefer as well.  However I'm a little unsure as to what professions that Norn shamans typically are.  They all seem to be all over the place profession wise 

[Jimbru.6014]

Norn shamans in general are often Elementalists. Raven also has Mesmers and Necromancers in his fold.

A more unusual choice to try would be Revenant. Talking to spirits from the Mists fits Raven's profile, and of course the Norn love legends.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Jimbru.6014

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

IIRC:

Raven-following norn are typically necromancers and mesmers.

Snow Leopard-following norn are typically thieves and mesmers.

Wolf-following norn are typically guardians and rangers.

Bear-following norn are typically warriors and rangers.

I don't recall, off-hand, any non-Sons of Svanir norn elementalists. And can't pin down from memory the patron spirit for any norn engineer.

That isn't to say that warrior norn can only worship Bear, or guardian norn can only worship Wolf, mind you. I know off-hand one Snow Leopard following warrior (Gyda Oddsdottir).

4 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

A more unusual choice to try would be Revenant. Talking to spirits from the Mists fits Raven's profile, and of course the Norn love legends.

For clarity, revenants do not talk or channel spirits, but echoes which are effectively disembodied clones.

Still rather Raveny though.

[Ashantara.8731]

I would also recommend Necromancer first and foremost in your specific case.

[nobleboivin.4102]

Ty all ❤️

[PolarBear.3961]

I have a raven necromancer ;). A ranger druid could work aswell.

[KnightofPhoenix.3679]

I'm personally partial to Revenant norn - Revenants are all about the Mists and the Norn are (spiritually) the most attuned to the Mists.  They also revere legends which fits well with the class. 

There is also the added benefit of wearing heavy armor which suits the Norn. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

I made a raven-themed mesmer for IBS.

All the purple and butterflies for base mesmer abilities don't exactly scream "raven," but all the mind-themed stuff counterbalanced it for me. More than the core class abilities, it was the availability of feathery light armor (or you could cop out and just wear the raven set), the raven mini, and Nevermore that cemented it for me.

[nobleboivin.4102]

1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I made a raven-themed mesmer for IBS.

All the purple and butterflies for base mesmer abilities don't exactly scream "raven," but all the mind-themed stuff counterbalanced it for me. More than the core class abilities, it was the availability of feathery light armor (or you could cop out and just wear the raven set), the raven mini, and Nevermore that cemented it for me.

That as my thought too with Mesmer.  Makes me wish we could switch the butterfly effect to something else XD.  

I ended up making a necro, ele and mes Norn.  Going to see how I like druid and rev cause those would work. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 12/31/2022 at 11:28 AM, nobleboivin.4102 said:

I ended up making a necro, ele and mes Norn.  Going to see how I like druid and rev cause those would work. 

Heh more is better, I say. Try em all!

I forgot to add my norn ranger to the mix. Since the plan was always to 'main' soulbeast on that one, I went with Snow Leopard. I didn't have a Snow Leopard norn at the time, and planning on almost never having a separate/active pet made Wolf seem a bit out of place.

However, as I do with all of my rangers, I do have a druid loadout for that one. With Nevermore/Raven mini/a few feathery medium armor pieces, I can definitely see a Raven "look" for a druid. Thematically, the fact that druid leans into celestial magic isn't bad - I actually prefer that theme over the purple butterflies when it comes to Raven.

Things get even better if we allow ourselves to lean into IRL a touch. Druids from the Celtic tradition are healers, clerics, persons of knowledge/expertise, and shrouded in a bit of mystery and inscrutability - all fitting quite nicely into Raven's purview.  Leaving IRL and going back into Tyria, it doesn't seem like a stretch at all to call druids a sort of shaman, and of course each Spirit is venerated and studied by norn shamans in-game.

In terms of gameplay, now that the pet nerf for druids has been removed, that opens up a lot more decent options for solo open world play, in addition to the strong group role druid always had. I think you'll have a good time with druid if you manage to secure a look that you like.

Edited January 2, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012

[rylien.3824]

You should also know that the Druids can also connect to the Lore of the Jotuns (which were also linked to the civilization of the Norns). With the spirit of the Crow it makes the thing "perfect", in addition "the celestial domain, and the crow is a bird of the corvid family !).

Besides, I hope that now that the arc of the dragons is over, that we look at something else, including the Norns and the Jotun culture for example. (If we look at the human Gods as a threat, or as a threat from the mists related to the gods, it could leave the way for everything related to the Gods, so the Homeland of the Norns in the far north, the Kodans, the Jotuns , the islands of Jantirs, the mists, etc...). (Even Torment)

Which can close the gaps left by Icebrood Saga. (Even Quora Sum, the Asura city, now that Primordius is gone...maybe they hold secrets !).   We know via Guild Wars: Utopia that the Human Gods were born from the power of insectoid deities, including Arachnia, the Spider Goddess whom Abaddon fought. I would like to see that developed too). https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arachnia

Or Dwayna's father, the "God of Time". What connects the Gods and the Norn Spirits, we know that Eternal Alchemy exists, but it is what connects the dragons and the gods too. Knowing how it all comes together would be interesting.  https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Old_Gods_(Utopia)

 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by rylien.3824

[nobleboivin.4102]

8 hours ago, rylien.3824 said:

You should also know that the Druids can also connect to the Lore of the Jotuns (which were also linked to the civilization of the Norns). With the spirit of the Crow it makes the thing "perfect", in addition "the celestial domain, and the crow is a bird of the corvid family !).

Besides, I hope that now that the arc of the dragons is over, that we look at something else, including the Norns and the Jotun culture for example. (If we look at the human Gods as a threat, or as a threat from the mists related to the gods, it could leave the way for everything related to the Gods, so the Homeland of the Norns in the far north, the Kodans, the Jotuns , the islands of Jantirs, the mists, etc...). (Even Torment)

Which can close the gaps left by Icebrood Saga. (Even Quora Sum, the Asura city, now that Primordius is gone...maybe they hold secrets !).   We know via Guild Wars: Utopia that the Human Gods were born from the power of insectoid deities, including Arachnia, the Spider Goddess whom Abaddon fought. I would like to see that developed too). https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arachnia

Or Dwayna's father, the "God of Time". What connects the Gods and the Norn Spirits, we know that Eternal Alchemy exists, but it is what connects the dragons and the gods too. Knowing how it all comes together would be interesting.  https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Old_Gods_(Utopia)

 

 

I'm def reading on that later 😄

Didn't know about any of that.  I hope we get some deeper lore soon

[draxynnic.3719]

Linking druids to jotun is a bit of a reach, unless there's something big that I've managed to completely miss. There's that celestial element, to be sure, so one could plausibly roleplay a druid as being interested in jotun astronomy, but jotun aren't the only race to ever be interested in the stars. Druid lore has been pretty extensively covered, and it's mostly human in origin, although the druids did also teach members of other races their secrets. Now, the 'druid' elite specialisation has never been fully fleshed out, but it is presumably a character following in the footsteps of the Maguuma druids, but one that has not yet reached the point of transforming into tree or spirit form (at least not permanently, as CA seems to be a temporary spirit form).

 

That said... using Nevermore with a druid means you get to transform into a raven when you use the mobility skill.

 

Heck, if 'raven shaman' is part of a theme, just get Nevermore. Doesn't matter what your profession is (well, unless you've made a warrior or engineer raven shaman, I guess). Throw ghost ravens at people with any profession that treats staff as a caster weapon. Play renegade and open portals to bombard people with spirit ravens. Maybe even use the dagger-throwing utilities as Daredevil and throw ravens at people that way, and then spin-to-win with even more ravens.

[Jobber.6348]

On 12/31/2022 at 1:04 AM, Jimbru.6014 said:

Norn shamans in general are often Elementalists. Raven also has Mesmers and Necromancers in his fold.

A more unusual choice to try would be Revenant. Talking to spirits from the Mists fits Raven's profile, and of course the Norn love legends.

The ultimate irony of Revenant Norn is that gameplay wise, you sacrifice all your Racials, including Become Bear, Snow Leopard, Raven and Wolf, making your character lore even worse.

[Jimbru.6014]

The original Druids of Tyria (as opposed to the elite spec we have today) have no connection to the Norn and their shamanry, nor to the Jotun. It's entirely possible that the Norn race didn't even exist yet when the original Druids were still active in Maguuma. The Druids had very different outlooks on nature and magic from the Norn, and simple geography makes it obvious there was no cultural contact. So no, there is no connection.

[draxynnic.3719]

9 minutes ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

The original Druids of Tyria (as opposed to the elite spec we have today) have no connection to the Norn and their shamanry, nor to the Jotun. It's entirely possible that the Norn race didn't even exist yet when the original Druids were still active in Maguuma. The Druids had very different outlooks on nature and magic from the Norn, and simple geography makes it obvious there was no cultural contact. So no, there is no connection.

What we have on the druids indicates that they appeared after humanity's arrival on Tyria, and I'm pretty sure the norn race is older than that (if the kodan theory is accurate, they probably split off from the kodan during the last dragonrise, and if the jotun theory is accurate, the norn and jotun probably still split before the druids appeared).

We know the druids didn't restrict themselves to just the Maguuma - Deirdre's Garden in Mt. Maelstrom has been at least strongly hinted to be an abandoned druid garden, for instance - so I don't think the possibility of contact can be ruled out.

Either way, though, it would, at most, be the norn adopting a tradition that was developed by someone else. And I suspect that if we ever did get explicit lore for the Druid elite specialisation, it would be some form of "Pact forces in the Maguuma learned from the druids and druidic sites how to channel similar powers..."

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

The ultimate irony of Revenant Norn is that gameplay wise, you sacrifice all your Racials, including Become Bear, Snow Leopard, Raven and Wolf, making your character lore even worse.

I don't think the norn elite racials have really been practical in any serious content for a while anyway. 

Could be nice if norn could get some racial-specific aesthetic option that allows them to appear as their spirit animal while fighting, while still using their regular weapon and skills. That's pretty much how norn NPCs in GW1 worked anyway.

[rylien.3824]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

What we have on the druids indicates that they appeared after humanity's arrival on Tyria, and I'm pretty sure the norn race is older than that (if the kodan theory is accurate, they probably split off from the kodan during the last dragonrise, and if the jotun theory is accurate, the norn and jotun probably still split before the druids appeared).

We know the druids didn't restrict themselves to just the Maguuma - Deirdre's Garden in Mt. Maelstrom has been at least strongly hinted to be an abandoned druid garden, for instance - so I don't think the possibility of contact can be ruled out.

Either way, though, it would, at most, be the norn adopting a tradition that was developed by someone else. And I suspect that if we ever did get explicit lore for the Druid elite specialisation, it would be some form of "Pact forces in the Maguuma learned from the druids and druidic sites how to channel similar powers..."

Perhaps druidic magic, is a base of the Jotuns, which has been enhanced and used for combat. The Jotuns were there before the Gods led them into Tyria from the Gate of the Mists in the far south of Cantha. We can quite imagine on this basis that it happened like this, moreover, it should be known that in the abstract lore: the specializations of HOT, were born by the need to defend oneself via the Jungle of Maguuma which acted like a prison, for survival, the specialization in itself was born (and is different from the Druids), through our feeling of the Jungle, so deep that the veil with the mists is thin. Ultimately, this spec was born not through learning, but through 2-3 reasons: our connection with the environment, the situation at the time of the HOT expansion, and the Survival instinct, knowing that this is the first time that the spec was born, we are the precursors of the specialization in the end, before us, the specialization did not exist, before this need to survive IN the jungle. After they talk about the long dormant forces of Tyria, it's not exclusive to Maguuma, it's just that Maguuma is the starting point, for a ranger, because the Druids lived there, and not only. Eventually the Commander, becoming a druid, only DID the same technique as the druids i.e. felt the power of the skies and the depths of Tyria (via Maguuma at first, and at first), but we are not Druids, which they nevertheless are a religious group in a way. They even say this: "The Druids saw the Maguuma as an entity with a will of their own, and they were the ones who served his will." Which meant that the Druids sensed something special in Maguuma by the presence of Mordremoth while simply that was asleep and related to the specter of Nature and Spirit, (which in itself is more powerful than the Gods themselves). Finally the group of druids (different from the spec of druids which only use the same mechanism) drew in Maguuma the force of Mordremoth, nevertheless, the dragon was not the reason for which the druids were born. I think that's where you have to separate things, the birth of the specialization comes from the Commander for his survival, in Maguuma, also feeling the force of Mordremoth through the jungle, without knowing what it is. was really at the start.

Rangers entering the ancient Maguuma Jungle may attune to the long-dormant forces of Tyria to become druids capable of channeling the might of the heavens, mending allies and daunting enemies. By gaining access to the staff weapon and glyphs, these masters of support bolster their allies with mystical insight into the natural world. Their new profession mechanic allows them to accumulate astral force to become a celestial avatar, a paragon of reactive recovery and strong sustainability in a dangerous world.

— Druid release notes

As longtime allies of nature, rangers can now channel the long-dormant strength of Tyria after tapping into the primal forces of the Heart of Maguuma jungle. Druids draw astral forces into themselves, gaining the power to become celestial avatars; in celestial avatar form a druid becomes capable of bringing allies on the brink of death back to pristine condition. Those following the path of the druid can also uncover ancient glyphs, which will help them with their duty of sustaining their allies. Trudging with heroic determination into the wild lands of the jungle, druids comprehend that the beauty of the wilderness conceals great danger.^[1][2]

Edited January 10, 2023 by rylien.3824

[Kalavier.1097]

On 1/8/2023 at 12:58 PM, rylien.3824 said:

We know via Guild Wars: Utopia that the Human Gods were born from the power of insectoid deities, including Arachnia, the Spider Goddess whom Abaddon fought. I would like to see that developed too). https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arachnia

Or Dwayna's father, the "God of Time". What connects the Gods and the Norn Spirits, we know that Eternal Alchemy exists, but it is what connects the dragons and the gods too. Knowing how it all comes together would be interesting.  https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Old_Gods_(Utopia)

GW Utopia was never made, and the information you quote here has never been made canon.

[rylien.3824]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

GW Utopia was never made, and the information you quote here has never been made canon.

Maybe one day they did reuse the Utopia Chronomancer after all.

Edited January 10, 2023 by rylien.3824

[draxynnic.3719]

On 1/11/2023 at 12:54 AM, rylien.3824 said:

Perhaps druidic magic, is a base of the Jotuns, which has been enhanced and used for combat. The Jotuns were there before the Gods led them into Tyria from the Gate of the Mists in the far south of Cantha. We can quite imagine on this basis that it happened like this, moreover, it should be known that in the abstract lore: the specializations of HOT, were born by the need to defend oneself via the Jungle of Maguuma which acted like a prison, for survival, the specialization in itself was born (and is different from the Druids), through our feeling of the Jungle, so deep that the veil with the mists is thin. Ultimately, this spec was born not through learning, but through 2-3 reasons: our connection with the environment, the situation at the time of the HOT expansion, and the Survival instinct, knowing that this is the first time that the spec was born, we are the precursors of the specialization in the end, before us, the specialization did not exist, before this need to survive IN the jungle. After they talk about the long dormant forces of Tyria, it's not exclusive to Maguuma, it's just that Maguuma is the starting point, for a ranger, because the Druids lived there, and not only. Eventually the Commander, becoming a druid, only DID the same technique as the druids i.e. felt the power of the skies and the depths of Tyria (via Maguuma at first, and at first), but we are not Druids, which they nevertheless are a religious group in a way. They even say this: "The Druids saw the Maguuma as an entity with a will of their own, and they were the ones who served his will." Which meant that the Druids sensed something special in Maguuma by the presence of Mordremoth while simply that was asleep and related to the specter of Nature and Spirit, (which in itself is more powerful than the Gods themselves). Finally the group of druids (different from the spec of druids which only use the same mechanism) drew in Maguuma the force of Mordremoth, nevertheless, the dragon was not the reason for which the druids were born. I think that's where you have to separate things, the birth of the specialization comes from the Commander for his survival, in Maguuma, also feeling the force of Mordremoth through the jungle, without knowing what it is. was really at the start.

Rangers entering the ancient Maguuma Jungle may attune to the long-dormant forces of Tyria to become druids capable of channeling the might of the heavens, mending allies and daunting enemies. By gaining access to the staff weapon and glyphs, these masters of support bolster their allies with mystical insight into the natural world. Their new profession mechanic allows them to accumulate astral force to become a celestial avatar, a paragon of reactive recovery and strong sustainability in a dangerous world.

— Druid release notes

As longtime allies of nature, rangers can now channel the long-dormant strength of Tyria after tapping into the primal forces of the Heart of Maguuma jungle. Druids draw astral forces into themselves, gaining the power to become celestial avatars; in celestial avatar form a druid becomes capable of bringing allies on the brink of death back to pristine condition. Those following the path of the druid can also uncover ancient glyphs, which will help them with their duty of sustaining their allies. Trudging with heroic determination into the wild lands of the jungle, druids comprehend that the beauty of the wilderness conceals great danger.^[1][2]

That's a lot of maybes to justify your headcanon.

 

There's nothing in-game to link the druid elite specialisation to jotun apart from a shared interest in astronomy and maybe runestones, and we also have several examples of humans being associated with astronomy and unusual writings, as well as the ancient druid lore being that they were humans transformed into plant form (and some of them later turned into spirit form). The simplest explanation for an elite specialisation called "druid", in an expansion focused on the region inhabited by the ancient druids and which still has some remnants of their power, is that there's a link between the two.

 

Meanwhile, even if hypothetically jotun ever did have druid-like magic (although the Shiverpeaks would be a strange place to develop plant magic), they lost their magic long enough ago that there's little chance of the other Tyrian races somehow rediscovering it... especially in the Maguuma jungle where as far as we know the jotun had never been. The core Heart of Thorns story happens over a matter of days, a couple of weeks at most, there wasn't exactly time to go back to the Shiverpeaks and start digging through jotun artifacts in hope that the ancient jotun somehow developed something suitable for jungle fighting. 

[Kalavier.1097]

On 1/12/2023 at 7:24 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

 The core Heart of Thorns story happens over a matter of days, a couple of weeks at most, there wasn't exactly time to go back to the Shiverpeaks and start digging through jotun artifacts in hope that the ancient jotun somehow developed something suitable for jungle fighting. 

44 days total passed between Pact fleet flying into the jungle and mordremoth dying, according to the conspiracy of dunces journals.

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

When I think of shamans I think of magic users, so my first suggestions would be:

Guardian (e.g., Wolf shaman) 

Revenant (e.g., Raven shaman) 

Necromancer (e.g., Raven shaman) 

Elementalist (e.g., Bear shaman)

Mesmer (e.g., Snow Leopard shaman)

But if we associate professions with each Spirit of the Wild, then any profession can fit a shaman: 

Warrior - Bear shaman

Ranger - Wolf shaman

Thief - Snow Leopard shaman

Engineer - Wolf / Bear / Raven shaman

You can make any combination work for your character (e.g., Raven shaman who's a warrior) if you imagine their backstory well 🙂 

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

When I think of shamans I think of magic users, so my first suggestions would be:

Guardian (e.g., Wolf shaman) 

Revenant (e.g., Raven shaman) 

Necromancer (e.g., Raven shaman) 

Elementalist (e.g., Bear shaman)

Mesmer (e.g., Snow Leopard shaman)

But if we associate professions with each Spirit of the Wild, then any profession can fit a shaman: 

Warrior - Bear shaman

Ranger - Wolf shaman

Thief - Snow Leopard shaman

Engineer - Wolf / Bear / Raven shaman

You can make any combination work for your character (e.g., Raven shaman who's a warrior) if you imagine their backstory well 🙂 

Is one of the nice things about GW2, put some thought into it and any profession fits any race and can work in many types of jobs.

And we can have warriors/engineers/rangers/thieves who use magic, or ones who use very little magic (or none basically) as well!