Math to back up why Maguuma should go it alone next relink.

[exeggcuter.8394]

So it's pretty common knowledge amongst those who regularly play WvW, but Maguuma has way more players than any of the other servers. This is fine, to an extent. There will mathematically be that one server that has the most players, facts.

 

However!

 

The past year or so, maguuma would get the most points, sure, but never More Than The Other Two Servers Combined.

There is a point which the server has too many dang players, and I think it's safe to say we're well past that point, and they need to go it alone.

 

I'm using wvw stats as my source. I'm also simply going by the final score that each team had since it gives a rough but quick relative estimate of the server's populations:

 

Dec 31 2022 to Jan 7 2023:

Maguuma: 838,347 points.

Sea of Sorrows: 246,100 points

Jade Quarry: 268,272 points.

 

Dec 24 2022 to Dec 31 2022:

Maguuma: 628,695 points

Sea of Sorrows: 364,506 points

Blackgate: 319,479 points

 

Dec 17 2022 to Dec 24 2022

Maguuma: 564,676 points

Sea of Sorrows: 440,520 points

Isle of Janthir: 285, 563 points

 

Normally my fights against maguuma have been entertaining as hell despite me knowing in advance I'll be heftily outnumbered. But this is just... confusing tbh. How is it *possible* that it got this imbalanced?

 

I guess I shouldn't be too terribly surprised ; when the players themselves get to decide which team they're on. For most it makes rational sense to choose to be on the side that always wins. Without any mechanism to force such players out of the easy win situation, that's what it will naturally trend towards. I'm relatively new to the WvW scene, and maguuma being the bloated server was there since I started playing. This is beyond absurd at this point. Logging in and seeing literally the entirety of all 4 maps controlled by one team, aside from a few camps? That's a sign of genuinely failed matchmaking.

 

This is not a question of one side having more skilled players, or one side having more skilled hackers. This is just a question of one side having WAY more players than the others, to the point I suspect it's more than the rest of the servers put together some days.

 

I fully recognize this has been brought up by other posters before, myself included, but I figured I'd go the extra mile and add some data to back it up. From what little I've seen this week it's going to be similarly lopsided.

 

Again, I have no issues with one server being dominant, that's unavoidable. But at a certain point, it's a failure on ANet's part, and to a huge extent the players themselves. Bloody wallet warriors...

[enkidu.5937]

1 hour ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

Normally my fights against maguuma have been entertaining as hell despite me knowing in advance I'll be heftily outnumbered. But this is just... confusing tbh. How is it *possible* that it got this imbalanced?

Just take EU: I like to fight large scale battles, in and against cloud. Some fight elite doesn't like that, so they intentionally go offline for the whole week, to drop back to Tier 2 or Tier 3, where they claim to get better fights, because they claim that "clouding is not fighting". Others just want to roll over enemies in easy mode, which is not possible in Tier 1. Some players even intentionally play against their own server and for the team they want to lose against. E. g. going to the enemy spawn and get farmed to give them PPK.

 

Atm there is a race in Tier 1 between red and blue, who can lose the most skirmishes. Such "Tier tanking" is common, even in Tier 2, to avoid going up to Tier 1. 😏

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

So it's pretty common knowledge amongst those who regularly play WvW, but Maguuma has way more players than any of the other servers. This is fine, to an extent. There will mathematically be that one server that has the most players, facts.

 

However!

 

The past year or so, maguuma would get the most points, sure, but never More Than The Other Two Servers Combined.

There is a point which the server has too many dang players, and I think it's safe to say we're well past that point, and they need to go it alone.

 

I'm using wvw stats as my source. I'm also simply going by the final score that each team had since it gives a rough but quick relative estimate of the server's populations:

 

Dec 31 2022 to Jan 7 2023:

Maguuma: 838,347 points.

Sea of Sorrows: 246,100 points

Jade Quarry: 268,272 points.

 

Dec 24 2022 to Dec 31 2022:

Maguuma: 628,695 points

Sea of Sorrows: 364,506 points

Blackgate: 319,479 points

 

Dec 17 2022 to Dec 24 2022

Maguuma: 564,676 points

Sea of Sorrows: 440,520 points

Isle of Janthir: 285, 563 points

 

Normally my fights against maguuma have been entertaining as hell despite me knowing in advance I'll be heftily outnumbered. But this is just... confusing tbh. How is it *possible* that it got this imbalanced?

 

I guess I shouldn't be too terribly surprised ; when the players themselves get to decide which team they're on. For most it makes rational sense to choose to be on the side that always wins. Without any mechanism to force such players out of the easy win situation, that's what it will naturally trend towards. I'm relatively new to the WvW scene, and maguuma being the bloated server was there since I started playing. This is beyond absurd at this point. Logging in and seeing literally the entirety of all 4 maps controlled by one team, aside from a few camps? That's a sign of genuinely failed matchmaking.

 

This is not a question of one side having more skilled players, or one side having more skilled hackers. This is just a question of one side having WAY more players than the others, to the point I suspect it's more than the rest of the servers put together some days.

 

I fully recognize this has been brought up by other posters before, myself included, but I figured I'd go the extra mile and add some data to back it up. From what little I've seen this week it's going to be similarly lopsided.

 

Again, I have no issues with one server being dominant, that's unavoidable. But at a certain point, it's a failure on ANet's part, and to a huge extent the players themselves. Bloody wallet warriors...

 

Again....not on Mag. But in NA, if you remove their link, where are you going to place that single extra server to and not expect them to overbalance that match up? We had three server links in NA and if memory isn't failing they all moved up. Hence the WR project to try and break groups into smaller components that may have better odds to sorting things out. Mind you as I type all this I remain server pride side but get their points. All you do by removing a link is send Mag to lower tiers to dominate their time zone in EBG there. Before we get to the WR project you should use them to practice how to counter Alliances that will form to both dominate time zones and those that look to dominate via coverage since we will get more of both once WR is rolled out.

[Tryfan.1457]

It's a demonstration of how a small issue can snowball into a much bigger issue.

 

The Mag community has been such for a while now that they will regard EBG as "theirs" and the spirit is such that they will band together the whole map to make it so. Above a certain mass of players, classes that retain mobility and safety while dealing damage become extremely strong. The reason for this is that it takes too long to get a significant number of these classes (ele and engineer are the biggest abusers, but mesmers rangers and thieves are also bad) to actually be dead and stay dead. When pressed, they retreat deeper into the cloud or into places that are not easy to follow, such as through portals or behind walls, and you can't stop it.

 

So, in this situation, you have a large number of characters and no ability to thin it out quickly without being an absolutely massive blob yourself. The best guilds routinely down huge numbers of cloud members but the number of actual kills are much lower because of these advantages. Even when kills happen, they are often hard rezzed. Again, these are advantages that require a very large group of people and a certain class mix to have work.

 

However, once this is achieved, like I say, it snowballs. When you won't lose more than one or two for every push of a blob, you can afford to spec into much higher damage builds than a typical medium size blob will be using, as long as you match it with defensive utility so you can get away if you happen to be in the direction the blob moves. It's no coincidence the Mag blob has so many elementalists, more than any other class, it's the easiest to do it on but by no means the only one. So these groups are now fighting a cloud that has much more damage than them and is much less vulnerable to dying than them.

 

Groups offset this with boons, but another large population element of the cloud is boonripping necros. Because of this, only the strongest, best organized groups can actually take on a full sized cloud and win, normally about 40 or 45 vs over 60 from the cloud.

 

No server can maintain a cohesive group on EBG at that number able to coordinate the support builds required to deal with that much damage when you have so little opportunity to do massive damage back. So, over the months and years, EBG has become less and less populated. The so called Ogrewatch sentry meta, one of the dullest and dumbest things I have ever witnessed in this game, got less and less popular. Without a major group on with coordination to fight, any other group will just be swarmed by the cloud and all die. People know this now, and stopped bringing anything but a cloud-defeating capable blob there. EBG became a wasteland with everything ticking t3 points to Mag. Desperate to find ANYONE to fight, Mag puts emergency waypoints into every tower they tier up, further dissuading any group smaller than a megablob from bothering. The snowball continues. All small group and roaming content at this point is now dead.

 

This was the situation a few months ago. Until then, you could still get the occasional fun on non-EBG maps. But people learn after a while. No one at all was bothering to come into EBG at all, other than a few clueless noobs who didn't really understand what was happening.

 

So the ewp meta was expanded to every map. Roaming and groups smaller than 40 died on alpine and desert as well. It takes more groups than any other server has going at a single time to split up the cloud enough for groups smaller than that to exist. Sure you still see them occasionally, because people want to wvw, but they are slaughtered. A 20 person group has no chance against the cloud showing up to an ewp tower and rolling over them with 40-60. You don't need coordination for that, 20 people would never be able to kill enough of the eles and rangers and engineers fast enough to sustain through. So that content is dead, and the snowball continues.

 

Right up until you see the condition of the BGs now. An overwhelming number and mechanic advantage on one map has killed all ability for anything but a well coordinated blob to play on any map at all. So Mag sits bored waiting for the casual groups to show up to try to get some wvw fun and roll over them for their vaunted kdr, sitting and picking their noses when they aren't around, wondering why their action is so dead. Coordinated groups like BANE and FTL (for this week's matchup) are still quite capable of blasting the cloud to pieces, but even then, it's fighting for twenty or thirty minutes constantly at a time while the cloud hard rezzes itself over and over, never getting to move or fight decisively because the cloud never presents a single target large enough to beat down quickly enough, again thanks to mechanics that break above a group size threshold. This is fun in small doses, but it gets dull way faster for the organized group than it does for the cloud.

 

And there's the end result. Dead maps, unless several blobs get up and roam around at once. Green t3 everywhere because small groups and roaming is completely killed by the population imbalance. And the funny thing? Because of the way ANet tracks population (by server activity in wvw maps), when the maps go dead like this, it even makes Maguuma look underpopulated, to the point where they even opened up (and dozens more people transferred in). If no one is roaming or playing in small groups, even some Maguuma fanatics stop bothering to go in.

 

I don't anticipate any solution. That people will (and have) stop playing with Maguuma at all when they refuse to permit any group smaller than 40 to exist seems to be completely okay with both Maguuma and ANet. Won't be the first time short term glee ends in long term desolation. This situation won't persist forever, and we'll see what things look like on the other side. Unfortunately, because I don't think ANet actually leaves any kind of discretion to actual people over their algorithm, it is going to take a LONG period of disastrously bad wvw to change anything. I wouldn't be surprised if they just let it be this way all the way to alliances, in the mistaken belief that will solve anything.

 

 

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

No the real issue is that Maguuma is the last remaining community server in NA.  There are a handful of other servers that still have communities, like FA, TC, AR, even SoS, but they are much smaller and limited to certain times of day..

 

The only groups that can challenge mag are the various insular boon balling groups that only play 2-5 hours a day 4-5 times a week.  They simply don't have anywhere near the playtime or coverage that Maguuma is able to put in.

 

To fix wvw, the sustain needs to go away, there needs to be room for a pug-mander with non meta builds and non-meta players to have at least a chance against organized meta groups in voice comms.  That way new and less serious players won't be driven out of wvw every time a boon ball group logs in for their scheduled session.

 

The outlier small scale builds should also probably be reigned in again, which would somewhat tone done individual player skill at the smaller scale as well.

 

TLDR, sustain goes bye bye, kill rate increases 3-5X to match the 2012-2016 era, the pug-mander returns, and wvw becomes much more fun for the majority that would still be playing, if they hadn't been driven away by the humungous cliff that now exists between organized and less organized groups.

 

It also wouldn't be a terrible idea to get rid of the 24 hour format, but that's another discussion.

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Again....not on Mag. But in NA, if you remove their link, where are you going to place that single extra server to and not expect them to overbalance that match up?

To SoS of course, they need the extra NA help to make sure they don't get camped by Mag ever again. 🤭

[Telgum.6071]

I assume the Mag situation is the same than FoW, where the enemy is mostly unable to fight against an organized cloud (unorganized fights according to the karma train tags, it seems if you are not logged in discord you are not organized). If that's the case I'll call it skill issue rather than numbers issue, there is no way a cloud can properly take a blob with two supports per party.

In a boonball meta, being able to defeat blobs without a commander is a blessing rather than a curse, like this subforum likes to imply with the Mag and Fow situation.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, Tryfan.1457 said:

So these groups are now fighting a cloud that has much more damage than them and is much less vulnerable to dying than them.

 

51 minutes ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

To fix wvw, the sustain needs to go away, there needs to be room for a pug-mander with non meta builds and non-meta players to have at least a chance against organized meta groups in voice comms.  That way new and less serious players won't be driven out of wvw every time a boon ball group logs in for their scheduled session.

So someone complains because a combat group organized with meta build on voice is deleted by a group of ''cloud''. And soon after someone complains that a group organized in voice formation with meta build eliminates any chance of success against a group of ''cloud''.

So I find it hard to understand from Europe.

My thought is that if both different statements are true, and that's a good thing. Because the content in this game mode is literally its players. You can face many different things. That's the beauty of it. ANET's task is to provide similar teams in terms of flow. The task of the players is to put the content.

Seventh commandment ''adapt'' . Change your goals, change your strategy, you will always find a way to have fun. And I write it from 'eu where you often happen not to get a link, then 1 server vs 4 servers, while many players go on their alt ( cowards ) then 1 server half emptied vs 4 servers. This is a real problem, certainly not your MAG server. It would be fun to transfer the entire MAG server to EU, So they can quickly learn how music sounds around here.🤭

[Mabi black.1824]

In fact, I make a proposal to Anet. Please ANET brings the MAG server to the EU. We are missing a couple of servers to improve matches. Mag could be a great candidate, they say he often plays in EU times. And we in EU are always looking for new players for our favorite mode.🤭

And then in na they don't want them anymore.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Mabi black.1824

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

Mag does tear apart the mediocre boon blob groups, if they can get enough actual maguumies on the map in question.  But the actual good boon blob groups do generally eventually defeat mag, though it's a long drawn out war of attrition that isn't terribly fun for either side.

 

When I was new to wvw, and much worse at it then I am now, groups of similarly skilled players to myself were very often defeating even the most organized groups in objective fights, especially defensive fights.  The organized players did have an advantage but it was on the order of 10-20-50%.

 

Now-a-days, it doesn't matter how many people we have, unless we're mag.  The boon blob farms us til it gets bored, and then takes the objective. And that is true even of mediocre boon-blob groups.  The organized group advantage is now 10x, and goes up from there as skill and experience are added.

 

 

TLDR with power creep organized advantage has increased from 10-50% to 10-100 TIMES.  The game is a wreck, and will stay a wreck until this is rectified.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Arya Whitefire.8423

[moutzaheadin.4029]

8 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

 

So someone complains because a combat group organized with meta build on voice is deleted by a group of ''cloud''. And soon after someone complains that a group organized in voice formation with meta build eliminates any chance of success against a group of ''cloud''.

So I find it hard to understand from Europe.

My thought is that if both different statements are true, and that's a good thing. Because the content in this game mode is literally its players. You can face many different things. That's the beauty of it. ANET's task is to provide similar teams in terms of flow. The task of the players is to put the content.

Seventh commandment ''adapt'' . Change your goals, change your strategy, you will always find a way to have fun. And I write it from 'eu where you often happen not to get a link, then 1 server vs 4 servers, while many players go on their alt ( cowards ) then 1 server half emptied vs 4 servers. This is a real problem, certainly not your MAG server. It would be fun to transfer the entire MAG server to EU, So they can quickly learn how music sounds around here.🤭

Eu players couldn’t handle MAG, the skill of our player base is made up of the best players in the world. We have evolved out of necessity to systematically pick apart the boon spamming blobs that all huddle on tag. We are made up of small groups of roaming builds that don’t use comms and know how to adjust to any situation. 
 

Not only would the EU people get farmed they would get BM’d into oblivion. They play super nice on EU, I’m not sure they have ever encountered the trolly, skillful and somewhat toxic level of gameplay MAG can bring. Imo they would take MAG week off too.

 

~obs

 

[Engel.6029]

Mag has coverage and spies.  Coverage allows them to D up while other servers are slow and the spies mean mag responds to were any organized group is going before it gets there, they also eat up queue spots if you can get a map queue.  On top of all that SoS at least has a lot of quitters who simply won't log in to fight mag.  

 

Some fixes would be allow teams to place siege in their spawn.  Get rid of EWP.  Add some stat upscaling to outnumbered.

[moutzaheadin.4029]

27 minutes ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

Mag does tear apart the mediocre boon blob groups, if they can get enough actual maguumies on the map in question.  But the actual good boon blob groups do generally eventually defeat mag, though it's a long drawn out war of attrition that isn't terribly fun for either side.

 

When I was new to wvw, and much worse at it then I am now, groups of similarly skilled players to myself were very often defeating even the most organized groups in objective fights, especially defensive fights.  The organized players did have an advantage but it was on the order of 10-20-50%.

 

Now-a-days, it doesn't matter how many people we have, unless we're mag.  The boon blob farms us til it gets bored, and then takes the objective. And that is true even of mediocre boon-blob groups.  The organized group advantage is now 10x, and goes up from there as skill and experience are added.

 

 

TLDR with power creep organized advantage has increased from 10-50% to 10-100 TIMES.  The game is a wreck, and will stay a wreck until this is rectified.

Then you haven’t played the time when the real MAG players fight the boon blobs. Most of the NA time boon blobs that fight MAG have given up. During offhours it’s a bit tougher as we rely on a few very good players to carry a skeleton crew.

 

~obs 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by moutzaheadin.4029

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

I think maybe I failed to make my point clear in my first post.

 

On Maguuma the community as a whole is capable, for at least 10-16 hours a day, to take defended T3s, and make things happen.

 

On every other (NA) server, this is no longer true, only the boon blob manders can break defended T3s, and make things happen. (With the exception of some crazy overstacked off-hours like SoS)

 

The fix is not to ruin maguuma. The fix is to put the game back into a state where all of the players who could defeat maguuma don't feel they have to wait for a boon ball to show up to even have a small chance.  And the way to do that is to end the boon ball meta once and for all. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Arya Whitefire.8423

[Telgum.6071]

48 minutes ago, moutzaheadin.4029 said:

Eu players couldn’t handle MAG, the skill of our player base is made up of the best players in the world. We have evolved out of necessity to systematically pick apart the boon spamming blobs that all huddle on tag. We are made up of small groups of roaming builds that don’t use comms and know how to adjust to any situation. 
 

Not only would the EU people get farmed they would get BM’d into oblivion. They play super nice on EU, I’m not sure they have ever encountered the trolly, skillful and somewhat toxic level of gameplay MAG can bring. Imo they would take MAG week off too.

 

~obs

 

I'm yet to meet a game where in general terms NA players are better than EU 😄but it would be real nice to see that, we could use something like what's being described here, fights in T1 are boring AF.

[moutzaheadin.4029]

14 minutes ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

I think maybe I failed to make my point clear in my first post.

 

On Maguuma the community as a whole is capable, for at least 10-16 hours a day, to take defended T3s, and make things happen.

 

On every other (NA) server, this is no longer true, only the boon blob manders can break defended T3s, and make things happen. (With the exception of some crazy overstacked off-hours like SoS)

 

The fix is not to ruin maguuma. The fix is to put the game back into a state where all of the players who could defeat maguuma don't feel they have to wait for a boon ball to show up to even have a small chance.  And the way to do that is to end the boon ball meta once and for all. 

Here is the key issue that no one will admit.

 

you can’t get better at anything if you quit/take the week off, when things are too hard.

 

people waiting around for boob blob tags are doing themself a great disservice by waiting around for one of the few fancy boon blob tags to log in. You don’t get better at wvw taking weeks off vrs the hard fights. You don’t get better at wvw waiting in spawn for the na morning hours to come to make your push for 2 hours.

 

as the old saying goes “when the going gets tough the tough get going” that’s not the case here in gw2. Here the case is when the going gets tough I’ll log out cause it’s to hard.

 

I’m sorry to say this isn’t a MAG problem, this is an ongoing change to society that everyone wants something easy or free without any work. My father would slap me for such a quitter attitude. I pity how soft most of you guys are. 💀

~obs

 

[moutzaheadin.4029]

3 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I'm yet to meet a game where in general terms NA players are better than EU 😄but it would be real nice to see that, we could use something like what's being described here, fights in T1 are boring AF.

You don’t want this smoke 💨

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, moutzaheadin.4029 said:

as the old saying goes “when the going gets tough the tough get going” that’s not the case here in gw2. Here the case is when the going gets tough I’ll log out cause it’s to hard.

Little but sure, if this is the attitude you will never go very far. It doesn't matter what you ask Anet or what update Anet port. You'll still be left with the same problems if you choose not to get involved. It should be the opposite, when the game is complicated it should be more interesting and stimulate your attention and your desire to try.

Let's go back to what I wrote before. ANET's job is to build similar servers. The player's task is to put the content.

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, moutzaheadin.4029 said:

You don’t want this smoke

Well the request to Anet has been made, and the challenge between the continents has been launched.😎

Let's see if Anet can do anything about it.

P.S. but why can't we all play together EU+NA from T1 to T9 it would be great. What are the technical problems?

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

I mean it's theoretically possible to glom all the servers together, and to change the active data center depending on which is currently in prime time.  But, it would be a lot of work, and the original wvw dev, not to mention the original gw2 infrastructure devs, are mostly long gone.

[Mabi black.1824]

38 minutes ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

it would be a lot of work

Every time you talk about changing something or changing something on these digital platforms it is always the same answer. a lot of work.😢

[exeggcuter.8394]

"

I’m sorry to say this isn’t a MAG problem, this is an ongoing change to society that everyone wants something easy or free without any work. My father would slap me for such a quitter attitude. I pity how soft most of you guys are. 💀

~obs"

 

I firmly disagree with the overall sentiment that society is somehow worse than it used to be (frikken nostalgic geezer). But! This is literally what Maguuma is right now. They have an overwhelming numbers advantage, so they have it super easy right now. Having fought against them as a pugmander myself, they really aren't any more skilled than the average player. This is not a question of changing the game mechanics. The janky mechanics are entertaining as hell to me. And I'm also not proposing a permanent idea of maguuma going alone for *all* relinks either.

 

ANet has at it's disposal a system for rebalancing servers every 6 weeks that exists right now and works. Saying that servers choose not to play because they are *THAT* badly outnumbered frankly reinforces my point. Maguuma will live for 6 weeks going alone. I don't have the numbers of course, but whatever server pair is currently in tier 4 can have Yak's Bend - the server currently linked with Maguuma.

 

TLDR: not a skill, game mechanic, hacking, w/e issue, purely number of player issue. GLHF ya'll.

[exeggcuter.8394]

Hmm and I just now remembered another thing that might possibly help.

 

Being outnumbered on a map used to provide an extra 5 pips per income so long as that buff was present. Not sure if that would do much, but it would at least give people a real incentive to stick around if their team has a huge disadvantage.

 

Even more tangentially related, but I think there should be some extra bonus to players who are in higher tiers. I've mentioned it before but I hatefully detest modern matchmaking that effectively punishes winners and rewards losers. Several replies mention teams intentionally losing; this is a system failure.

 

Examples of rewards: say, you happen to be in tier 1 you get, as an example +15 reward track progress per tick, or whatever. And in tier 2 that'd be +10, +5 for tier 3, and no bonus for last place.

 

That way winners get rewarded and losers do not get rewarded. There would remain a proper reason to win. For me winning purely for the sake of winning is enough, right up until I realize that winning means it's losing. It makes losing suck less though, I guess. But the idea that a team would intentionally lose because it makes logical sense is a failure of the rules as written.

[Riba.3271]

Just take the link servers, throw them into outer space and blast them with nuclear weapons.

 

They can't artificially give every linking same population since people regularly transfer and change their habits based on WvWs state. Better just to go back to server communities. Higher tiers will be more populated but that just means they deserve it for providing majority of people what they want.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Again....not on Mag. But in NA, if you remove their link, where are you going to place that single extra server to and not expect them to overbalance that match up? 

IoJ.