Math to back up why Maguuma should go it alone next relink.

[exeggcuter.8394]

Hmmm @ sleepwalker, that is actually good advice. Thanks.

[pukish.5784]

WvW is like local town that is dying. Enjoy the moment and move on when it dies completely.

Imo its not only WvW. Guildwars2 is too old.

Edited January 13, 2023 by pukish.5784

[exeggcuter.8394]

Alright, I did myself a favor and chose to play a little bit of WvW tonight. I'm aware confirmation bias is a thing, but I'm trying to keep an open mind. Keeping an open mind is the only way to always be right.

 

MAG is moderately competent. They will 100% respond to a group of 5 people with 25 people tho. They will not win even fights reliably. Sometimes? Sure. But whether they win even fights doesn't matter against them. They run from even fights, and call for backup immediately. You won't get anything resembling an even fight against Maguuma. Continue to believe it's somehow secretly a skill gap. If that's what helps you sleep at night, more power to ya's.

 

I challenge ya'll to look up the semi-famous "Unfair Monopoly Experiment".

 

Also also also, I have been on the receiving end of having more players on my team, and I am well aware while it is happening why we are managing to take objectives. Skill is of course important as always, but I don't pretend that my team is somehow secretly so vastly superior in skill that the other team deserves to lose or w/e such nonsense I've seen various fellas post.

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

9 minutes ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

MAG is moderately competent. They will 100% respond to a group of 5 people with 25 people tho. They will not win even fights reliably. Sometimes? Sure. But whether they win even fights doesn't matter against them. They run from even fights, and call for backup immediately. You won't get anything resembling an even fight against Maguuma. Continue to believe it's somehow secretly a skill gap. If that's what helps you sleep at night, more power to ya's.

 

 

You can't really get the full effect playing against them.  The largest confounder, is that you often aren't fighting Maguumies, or at least you're fighting the more mediocre ones.  Also the skill difference is less visible in 1vs1s, it's more a skirmish dueling thing.

 

I play NSP, YB, and Mag very regularly.  I'm well aware of how TC, CD, JQ, AR, FA, SoS, and  BG play from playing linked with them or on alts.

 

And if you're playing with mag during prime time it is a night and day difference.  Maguumies actually talk on map chat, when you ask for help they actually show up. Maguumies are capable of pushing a defended T3 for hours until it breaks, without any centralized commanding required.

 

And when it comes to actually fighting, if you make a good play and go deep, they support you and generate downs.  EVERY OTHER SERVER, the players are 90% likely to just run away and watch you die. Maguumies simply understand momentum and positioning, as an unorganized group, significantly better than any other server.

 

None of this is just the last 2 months, it's the last 3 years.  I generally ration my play time on Maguuma, because the more I play there, the more I hate playing anywhere else.  Though with YB being my main server, this pairing has been Maguuma overload.

 

 

 

 

 

[Graymatter.4723]

27 minutes ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

Continue to believe it's somehow secretly a skill gap.

It's not a skill gap. It never was. It's a numbers game. Did Mag suddenly go from terrible a year back when they were stuck in T4 to gud now that they are in T1? Were SoS amazing players when they held onto 1st place for a whole pairing 6 months ago and they now slumped into terribad mode? WvW has, and always will be about numbers. The side with more people logged on wins 99% of matches. Mag is loaded in NA with queues on most maps during peak NA times where the teams that they are playing against don't have any queues at all during peak NA time.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Graymatter.4723

[Graymatter.4723]

6 minutes ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

And if you're playing with mag during prime time it is a night and day difference.  Maguumies actually talk on map chat, when you ask for help they actually show up. Maguumies are capable of pushing a defended T3 for hours until it breaks, without any centralized commanding required.

That happens on every server when they have numbers on. There is nothing special about mag. They don't miraculously have these "special" players that no other team has. I can call out for support on my server and will get a flood of people arrive. My server will push for a target for hours if need be until they finally capture it. The only difference is in numbers. A server that has more people online will beat servers that have less people online. That's the end of the story.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Graymatter.4723

[ArchonWing.9480]

4 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Probably because they don't care about 40 showing up for 5 guys or their scouts are better at providing relevant information (basic who, what, where info) instead of just pinging a POI.

My server is pretty infamous for the useless "ping only" scouting, so when we were linked with Mag, those reports were usually quickly memed on and ignored. "Yea, it's a tower." Sadly, after the link the brain dead people remained just as braindead as before but at least we have better ways of handling it.

(I mean, honestly, what does anyone think pinging Stonemist really does? The thing is always contested unless the map is dead)

Edited January 13, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

Maybe half the servers do have the same number of good players.   But on Mag, those players don't require a tag they know and trust to be around for them to bother playing.  They don't need that tag to tell them to go defend a camp or a T0 tower.

 

There are 2 servers I consider "mini-mags", AR and FA.  (TC also has a few)  They have a smaller nucleus of players who can play the position and momentum skirmish game well without relying on a tag, but they are much more irregular about being able to take and hold territory.  And yeah the territory taking difference, is because they have less SKILLED players actually playing.  If you gave AR and FA 5x as many skirmishing skilled players willing to play without a tag, they'd probably up their tagless territory game too.  But if you gave them 5x as many normally skilled players, they'd just donate more bags to boon blobs, and maguuma, until they gave up and quit trying.

 

 

BG used to be good at the position and momentum fighting game on EBG, but gave it up, since they basically always lost to Mag eventually.  I may have seen someone refer to this as the "ogre-watch meta", in this or a related thread.

 

I think a big part of why Mag broke out from OP to Monstrous was the Mag+AR pairing, all of a sudden you had the #1 skirmish fighting server paired up with one of the second tier skirmish fighting servers.  Which just made EBG completely unplayable by anyone else.  Once everyone else stopped contesting EBG, Maguuma had to go to the Borderlands for fights.  Then YB comes in with their still relatively huge latent/fairweather NA population, add some bandwagoning, and here we are now.

 

 

BUT BUT BUT, again the root cause of all this, is the powercreep, which has made most people be unwilling to play AT ALL without an organized group.  And mag being the one server that can play without organized groups is just a huge advantage in that environment.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Arya Whitefire.8423
added last sentence to 2nd paragraph

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

And when it comes to actually fighting, if you make a good play and go deep, they support you and generate downs.  EVERY OTHER SERVER, the players are 90% likely to just run away and watch you die. Maguumies simply understand momentum and positioning, as an unorganized group, significantly better than any other server.

 

None of this is just the last 2 months, it's the last 3 years.  I generally ration my play time on Maguuma, because the more I play there, the more I hate playing anywhere else

Welcome to the self-selection bias for playstyle in action.  You see the difference.

I guess one could say that the players complaining about Mag so much are generally those who ran away 90% of the time and frustrated their roamer/EBG skirmish servermates to the point that they transferred to Mag to play alongside players who don't run.  Quite a few of those players who you consider Mag and are in MAG alliance are players I know who transferred there from other servers....
 

[jul.7602]

Nothing will change in T1 until the other servers stop coping and realize that its not a numbers issue. It's a skill issue, compounded by their refusal to learn to play this game without a commander having to tell them everything to do. Alliances aren't going to be here anytime soon in 2023, and Anet is not going to help you fix your own self-made problem.

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

My server is pretty infamous for the useless "ping only" scouting, so when we were linked with Mag, those reports were usually quickly memed on and ignored. "Yea, it's a tower." Sadly, after the link the brain dead people remained just as braindead as before but at least we have better ways of handling it.

(I mean, honestly, what does anyone think pinging Stonemist really does? The thing is always contested unless the map is dead)

I meme on them too, but I'm not in WvW 8 hours a day.

At some point it also occurred to me that the person doing it might not speak English too well.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[ArchonWing.9480]

20 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I meme on them too, but I'm not in WvW 8 hours a day.

At some point it also occurred to me that the person doing it might not speak English too well.

Ah, sadly in our case usually they do speak English, they just never use it to communicate anything useful.

We do have quite a few Spanish speakers though; I ought to try and learn some.

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 hours ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

MAG is moderately competent. They will 100% respond to a group of 5 people with 25 people tho.

As a roamer with and against obs, respect. Good fights and not seen much callouts saying need help. Having had to face Mag 1 v x after callouts I get your point. So you need to learn to kill them or know they will do that and adjust and work that angle.

Based on other points it sounds like you have been roaming and now want to havoc or drive. So as you have seen you need to test and adjust. Your havoc may not like that but its key to know your role. If you are bait you need to be ready to try and have more chase you. Are you scouting, you need to trigger an event that will bring them to you so you can scout/count and report them. Are you looking to distract and bait them into a trap, hit them and lead them to your side. Are you looking to take, pre-prep, bait/decoy to lead them away as you weaken spots they didn't scout. 

Examples, for Mag, know they will scout and report, so go deep bring them back in the maps and get out and then hit them elsewhere. Draw them off EB and when they spread hit them. Decoy with multiple targets at one time. Fight them where you want to fight, not where they want to fight. If they go for spawn camp, bait them there and pull them into guards while your strikers go side exits.

Key rule here is don't go for the easy distracted 3rdparty, always hit the one that holds SM. Too many times people will go for the side that is assaulting's SMC. Go for the ones holding it. If Mag just camps EBG, taunt them elsewhere. Hit their border while leaving min forces to keep them EB. Again, don't play their game, play your own. Know their roamers will respond and lure them based on your actions versus playing their games. Too many people just try and power play thru it, don't. Mag is good at responding, use that to your advantage. Its like any WvW, try, review, adjust. Good hunting!

[TheGrimm.5624]

50 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Ah, sadly in our case usually they do speak English, they just never use it to communicate anything useful.

We do have quite a few Spanish speakers though; I ought to try and learn some.

What!? I told you bacon-tree three times and still you went forward. How did you not get ham-bush. Its ok, I still failed to dodge that NPC, still bitter you didn't mention the NPC threw siege. Maybe meet in the middle and we blame Sit, they got Splat killed after all. 

[Graymatter.4723]

1 hour ago, jul.7602 said:

Nothing will change in T1 until the other servers stop coping and realize that its not a numbers issue. It's a skill issue, compounded by their refusal to learn to play this game without a commander having to tell them everything to do. Alliances aren't going to be here anytime soon in 2023, and Anet is not going to help you fix your own self-made problem.

Let me guess, you play on mag. Your lack of insight into the game mode is astounding. Miraculously, all of the good players picked Mag. But they weren't good a year back because Mag was stuck in T4. Back then they were just really bad players but now they are good because they decided to just be good. It's also amazing because 3 weeks back, SoS was on top and Mag was second for the week. So they didn't have the skill for that week and SoS had the skill but now they got their skill back and SoS lost their skill because they dropped down to T2.

[Famine.7915]

The cope is real bad. Everyone in this thread picks 1 point and sticks to that as the reason not realizing other causes and effects. No point in explaining to those who won't listen.

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 minutes ago, Famine.7915 said:

The cope is real bad. Everyone in this thread picks 1 point and sticks to that as the reason not realizing other causes and effects. No point in explaining to those who won't listen.

 The thread is open and not yet closed so, go ahead and share. What would you like to bring up? 

[Chaba.5410]

30 minutes ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

Miraculously, all of the good players picked Mag.

Not all, but a good amount of quality roamers did transfer to Mag over the years.  Nothing miraculous about it. Kind of like a good amount of OCX players picking an unofficial OCX server to play on. Not a miracle.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Nikola.3841]

4 hours ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

 

 

 

And when it comes to actually fighting, if you make a good play and go deep, they support you and generate downs.  EVERY OTHER SERVER, the players are 90% likely to just run away and watch you die. Maguumies simply understand momentum and positioning, as an unorganized group, significantly better than any other server.

 

 

Thats actually true, I often die (and get disgusted by BG players approach to fighting) because I engage first...coming from DAOC and Warhammer online as my first MMOs, I totally don't understand PVD mentality...hence I usually die first, or while helping others.
I disagree that its the last 3 years though, BG used to have much more capable pugs, who didn't run away from bigger numbers...MAG, though, always seem obsessed with KDR and usually don't engage until superior in numbers

Edited January 13, 2023 by Nikola.3841

[Graymatter.4723]

14 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Not all, but a good amount of quality roamers did transfer to Mag over the years.  Nothing miraculous about it. Kind of like a good amount of OCX players picking an unofficial OCX server to play on. Not a miracle.

If mag roamers are quality roamers then I must be absolutely amazing as a roamer because I often beat mag roamers 1 vs 1 and sometimes even 1 vs 2.

Edit - just to add. I am not that good. Some of the best roamers I have encountered are on AR.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Graymatter.4723

[Mabi black.1824]

14 hours ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

To the grimm. Hmm I actually wonder what % of people reading this thread sincerely believe that it's got anything to do with something other than pure numbers. I know what I see lol. It's not skill, not really.

hi exeggcuter,

If you want to use numbers, you'd better use the right ones. We can read them all at any time. indeed at this precise moment T1 na : MAG K + D 72.000

JQ K + D 42.000

BG K + D 46.000

You can clearly see that you have to increase the numbers of the two servers that are playing vs MAG by more than 50%. Practically those teams would need a flow (and therefore number of players) double what they have at the moment to play numerically on par vs mag. 

Of course I'm talking about flow and players playing the mode. Those sitting or those who choose not to play on purpose don't count with K+D.

You don't have to explain anything else, you don't have to seek the consensus of Mag players to make sense of math. And if, as I've read, NA server players purposely choose not to play when Mag is there, you shouldn't even ask Anet for anything, because he can't really do anything about it.

Hypothetically even if Anet decides not to give a link to Mag, and the others still do not want to play on purpose. I'm sure Mag's flow will continue to greatly outstrip that of their opponents, and nothing would change.

So you can sleep peacefully, and be serene with yourself, because in fact MAG is literally doubling you with numbers.

The right question is whether you are going to change this condition. Yes? Then you will have to take a deep breath, relax quite a bit, and calmly and patiently do your part for your server, put content, gather people, offer a bit of fun for everyone with a bit of team spirit. And only with time can you see a community consolidate, grow and play with a little more harmony.

With the end result that your server when they play vs MAG will continue to play, because they have fun together, they can change their weekly goals, they can play constantly outnumbered and they can lose game after game, but they will still be there to play together.

This is large-scale group PVP, being in tune with your teammates, accepting to always lose or win together, makes all the difference. ( that's why servers for 8 weeks of alliances I consider them ridiculous )

 

[Mabi black.1824]

In fact, reading this extended post, he begins to understand why Anet chose the logic of Allene and Wr. Many of you ask Arenanet solutions to improve the balance between servers, but you are not willing to put content for the server, you are not willing to suffer with your server, better transfer, better choose not to play the week. Why waste time building community or cementing team spirit? 

It is better to ask and above all easier to ask Anet to delete the servers and the logic of Mondo vs Mondo on which they designed this mode, to make everything automatic. It will work on its own automatically every 8 weeks. Well done.

Only now I begin to understand how you came to this solution.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Mabi black.1824

[Nikola.3841]

23 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

In fact, reading this extended post, he begins to understand why Anet chose the logic of Allene and Wr. Many of you ask Arenanet solutions to improve the balance between servers, but you are not willing to put content for the server, you are not willing to suffer with your server, better transfer, better choose not to play the week. Why waste time building community or cementing team spirit? 

It is better to ask and above all easier to ask Anet to delete the servers and the logic of Mondo vs Mondo on which they designed this mode, to make everything automatic. It will work on its own automatically every 8 weeks. Well done.

 

Only community that ever got built in GW2 is Community of Raid Sellers

[Shift Focus.9083]

On 1/11/2023 at 4:17 AM, moutzaheadin.4029 said:

Here is the key issue that no one will admit.

 

you can’t get better at anything if you quit/take the week off, when things are too hard.

 

people waiting around for boob blob tags are doing themself a great disservice by waiting around for one of the few fancy boon blob tags to log in. You don’t get better at wvw taking weeks off vrs the hard fights. You don’t get better at wvw waiting in spawn for the na morning hours to come to make your push for 2 hours.

 

as the old saying goes “when the going gets tough the tough get going” that’s not the case here in gw2. Here the case is when the going gets tough I’ll log out cause it’s to hard.

 

I’m sorry to say this isn’t a MAG problem, this is an ongoing change to society that everyone wants something easy or free without any work. My father would slap me for such a quitter attitude. I pity how soft most of you guys are. 💀

~obs

 

I challenge you to go on any other server than Mag, Obs. Because you'll see what work actually means, and not just playing on easy mode all the time.

[Jeydra.4386]

1 hour ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

In fact, reading this extended post, he begins to understand why Anet chose the logic of Allene and Wr. Many of you ask Arenanet solutions to improve the balance between servers, but you are not willing to put content for the server, you are not willing to suffer with your server, better transfer, better choose not to play the week. Why waste time building community or cementing team spirit? 

It is better to ask and above all easier to ask Anet to delete the servers and the logic of Mondo vs Mondo on which they designed this mode, to make everything automatic. It will work on its own automatically every 8 weeks. Well done.

You know what happened last week on Blackgate? RAWR decided they didn't want to play against Maguuma, so they did their utmost to stay in T2 - by griefing their teammates as much as possible. They put bad tactics on everything, trolled tactivators, built tons of paper siege, etc.

The rest of the server responded by trying really hard. For a while it looked like RAWR might succeed. TC and BG were neck-and-neck for several days in skirmish points, but eventually the rest of the server won out and BG made it to T1. So don't criticize "team spirit". It was there last week.

You might ask what happened to the team spirit this week? Well, if you've ever played a sPvP match where one of your teammate dc's at the start or AFKs in the base, you know what it feels like. Sure you might win a fight and cap the point, you might be able to score a hundred more points, etc., but ultimately the match is pointless and you are almost surely going to lose anyway. It's why once one person AFKs, more people start to AFK. And that is at a 25% numbers disadvantage (4v5). Maguuma on their peak timezones have way more than a 25% numbers advantage (50v40).

Edited January 13, 2023 by Jeydra.4386