The elephant in the room: regarding specter boon utility vs specter! (Hardstuck PoV)

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

watch to the end!

this is what we need to be adjusted....for specter to be truly useful

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I just wish specter had more group based instead of single target support with scepter. 

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

Wow I think he mostly nailed it every expansion had a vastly different approach to how the game should be and ignored what was before for the most part this resulted in vastly different performance.

 

Certainly engi  has also some very special circumstances it was meant the be a design for lazy people .

 

In general a balance is good when the choices are hard for the player and not easy this not only includes specs but also trait lines and skills

Edited January 11, 2023 by Lord of the Fire.6870

[Doggie.3184]

I mentioned the first issue in feedback in past and I still strongly believe group Quickness and Alacrity boons especially should be tied to the F skills for every spec that provides them via a trait. These builds are essentially the Holy Trinity of the game and need to be tied to class mechanics, not totally random utilities throughout the game. Not only does it feel better on F skills and give us more choices to work with but it'd make these things much easier to understand and locate for new players and have some form of rational consistency between everyone.

Like Siphon could give AoE Alacrity and be useable on self (solo) and allies and provide all the other steal boons (Thrill of the Crime). I also don't care if they have to remove the Ally-Siphon reduced CD either, I just wanna be able to use it regardless of target. Otherwise a redesign of Shroud for it is in order and actually give us a reason to use the Shroud instead of kamikaze'n it for AoE heal..

 

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

7 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

watch to the end!

this is what we need to be adjusted....for specter to be truly useful

Ah I forgot how are things going? Since your old boss is married and so on (she came from my guild D)

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 hour ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

Ah I forgot how are things going? Since your old boss is married and so on (she came from my guild D)

wut?

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

10 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

wut?

^^ Well I wasn't much on for a year but every time I meet one in the fractals they went into confusion too.

She is a long time gone but I could also ask for Lukas or Patrick

 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

3 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

^^ Well I wasn't much on for a year but every time I meet one in the fractals they went into confusion too.

She is a long time gone but I could also ask for Lukas or Patrick

 

....i still dont know who those people are? for which guild? stay on topic though lol

[Eekasqueak.7850]

12 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I mentioned the first issue in feedback in past and I still strongly believe group Quickness and Alacrity boons especially should be tied to the F skills for every spec that provides them via a trait. These builds are essentially the Holy Trinity of the game and need to be tied to class mechanics, not totally random utilities throughout the game. Not only does it feel better on F skills and give us more choices to work with but it'd make these things much easier to understand and locate for new players and have some form of rational consistency between everyone.

Like Siphon could give AoE Alacrity and be useable on self (solo) and allies and provide all the other steal boons (Thrill of the Crime). I also don't care if they have to remove the Ally-Siphon reduced CD either, I just wanna be able to use it regardless of target. Otherwise a redesign of Shroud for it is in order and actually give us a reason to use the Shroud instead of kamikaze'n it for AoE heal..

 

I don't know if I agree after how they implemented alac on tempest. Would have preferred it be on shouts or something instead. 

[Serperior.6541]

6 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I don't know if I agree after how they implemented alac on tempest. Would have preferred it be on shouts or something instead. 

Alac on Tempest is fine, but anet added it to the end of the animation rather than pulse for some reason

[kash.9213]

23 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I mentioned the first issue in feedback in past and I still strongly believe group Quickness and Alacrity boons especially should be tied to the F skills for every spec that provides them via a trait. These builds are essentially the Holy Trinity of the game and need to be tied to class mechanics, not totally random utilities throughout the game. Not only does it feel better on F skills and give us more choices to work with but it'd make these things much easier to understand and locate for new players and have some form of rational consistency between everyone.

Like Siphon could give AoE Alacrity and be useable on self (solo) and allies and provide all the other steal boons (Thrill of the Crime). I also don't care if they have to remove the Ally-Siphon reduced CD either, I just wanna be able to use it regardless of target. Otherwise a redesign of Shroud for it is in order and actually give us a reason to use the Shroud instead of kamikaze'n it for AoE heal..

 

Maybe detail the changes to Shroud you're talking about. When you say overhaul, then I feel like just flat out disagreeing with you because aside from some radius and minor changes, I really like how Shroud feels right now all the way down the line, especially in large moving fights.

You have a good point about moving more of the team composition dynamic to Siphon, especially the way Wells feel designed to be more of a clutch response or for influencing a lane if you're moving people in or out. They want Specter to still move like a thief instead of being a static buff bot but then Wells have to be used off cooldown most of the time which is counter to that responsive, mobile, and improvised design.

[DeceiverX.8361]

The most frustrating thing here is he defines the high level problem at the end but we don't see criticism of it:  GW2's balance, even across all formats, is defined by its boon support.  A stale meta there isn't a problem.  The existence of that dependence is.  Dare I remind everyone that this game was founded on the principle such a dependence on supportive roles was not supposed to exist.

The fact of the matter is stuff like permanent uptime on anything so potent inherently breaks the game.  It's not that we need more bloat spamming boons on every ability in every direction to promote artificial "fairness" so much as to seriously cut down on the absolutely bonkers level of AoE support that so many professions bring.  That "support baseline" is inherently problematic because it invalidates the entire rest of the core game that doesn't play into a support-first style gameplay.  Want to play without a support?  Too bad, the game and all of its group content - be it PvE or group PvP - fundamentally now just assumes all of your actions are 50% faster and your cooldowns are 33% lower.  That you take 33% less damage.  That you have resistance to disabling conditions.  It's self-defeating and makes any attempts to introduce creative mechanics to both players and encounters basically impossible in a balanced and fun way.  Boons builds and support-first optimizations will always be superior.  Period.  They provide way too much in how they promote both flexibility and raw stats to make attempting to play any other way completely worthless outside of casual open-world mob farming.  But no matter how hard you try, you will never stack enough damage modifiers to justify not taking the alacrity or quickness or might a support build offers your profession.  Because it's influencing the entire rest of the group, and even then, on most builds, permanent capped might is just outright better stat-wise than damage modifier traits which are often conditional and provide very meaningless utility in their respective core trait lines.

Because simply, if the "baseline" of the game is to have so much support all at once, why have it at all?  Just make skill animations 50% faster and remove the boon.  Now players have the choice to take literally any other entire set of skills, traits, or builds rather than be a quickness bot.  If players take 33% less damage, you don't have to worry about rotating protection.  This goes on and on.  Boons are trivializing the game and make GW2 a solvable efficiency problem with how potent they are, and unlike PvE which doesn't have an actual metagame (PvE is always a fixed numbers problem to be solved via efficiency mechanisms until developers change the game, sorry folks), the PvP modes suffer because you just can't outwit and out-build mechanics that negate entire professions, entire trait lines, and effectively turn the game into the non-interactive snoozefest of rotations he complains about.  There is nothing to react to if your build poops out boons constantly on virtually every skill.  The decision-making just isn't there.  That engagement isn't there.  And the game--most notably the competitive modes--suffer the most for it.

Edited January 13, 2023 by DeceiverX.8361

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 1/12/2023 at 7:15 PM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

The most frustrating thing here is he defines the high level problem at the end but we don't see criticism of it:  GW2's balance, even across all formats, is defined by its boon support.  A stale meta there isn't a problem.  The existence of that dependence is.  Dare I remind everyone that this game was founded on the principle such a dependence on supportive roles was not supposed to exist.

What you have said is true in your post, but I feel like saying something still. One thing that attracted me to GW2 at its launch and way before then was the fact that there would be no traditional roles. The game has gone through many phases. Personally, I played at launch for about 1.5 years and came back in 2019. When I came back the game was a completely new beast. I have been playing since then. 

On 1/12/2023 at 7:15 PM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

The fact of the matter is stuff like permanent uptime on anything so potent inherently breaks the game.  It's not that we need more bloat spamming boons on every ability in every direction to promote artificial "fairness" so much as to seriously cut down on the absolutely bonkers level of AoE support that so many professions bring.  That "support baseline" is inherently problematic because it invalidates the entire rest of the core game that doesn't play into a support-first style gameplay.  Want to play without a support?  Too bad, the game and all of its group content - be it PvE or group PvP - fundamentally now just assumes all of your actions are 50% faster and your cooldowns are 33% lower.  That you take 33% less damage.  That you have resistance to disabling conditions.  It's self-defeating and makes any attempts to introduce creative mechanics to both players and encounters basically impossible in a balanced and fun way.  Boons builds and support-first optimizations will always be superior.  Period.  They provide way too much in how they promote both flexibility and raw stats to make attempting to play any other way completely worthless outside of casual open-world mob farming.  But no matter how hard you try, you will never stack enough damage modifiers to justify not taking the alacrity or quickness or might a support build offers your profession.  Because it's influencing the entire rest of the group, and even then, on most builds, permanent capped might is just outright better stat-wise than damage modifier traits which are often conditional and provide very meaningless utility in their respective core trait lines.

On 1/12/2023 at 7:15 PM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Because simply, if the "baseline" of the game is to have so much support all at once, why have it at all?  Just make skill animations 50% faster and remove the boon.  Now players have the choice to take literally any other entire set of skills, traits, or builds rather than be a quickness bot.  If players take 33% less damage, you don't have to worry about rotating protection.  This goes on and on.  Boons are trivializing the game and make GW2 a solvable efficiency problem with how potent they are, and unlike PvE which doesn't have an actual metagame (PvE is always a fixed numbers problem to be solved via efficiency mechanisms until developers change the game, sorry folks), the PvP modes suffer because you just can't outwit and out-build mechanics that negate entire professions, entire trait lines, and effectively turn the game into the non-interactive snoozefest of rotations he complains about.  There is nothing to react to if your build poops out boons constantly on virtually every skill.  The decision-making just isn't there.  That engagement isn't there.  And the game--most notably the competitive modes--suffer the most for it.

I agree with the ideas that you have presented logically, but I do have a few notes. Also yes, boons do break things, but at the same time they add a layer of complexity which makes gameplay exciting. 

(1) Your comment reminds me of how fractals are balanced around agony and agony potions actually 🙂

(2) To me the video was less about the need for more bloat spamming, but rather it talks about utility design and the flexibility when different classes are compared. I play firebrand a lot when I am not playing thief and quite honestly, I agree. Some classes can be very reactive or flexible while others have extra hoops to jump through. The video states these extra hoops cause a lack of flexibility or freedom making some skills inherently worse (like ALAC specter wells).

Now to counter that idea, perhaps a specific build wasn’t supposed to be used in the way that it is being used. Maybe then it’s a bad choice build (balance document term).

(3) You mention that the support baseline is bad because it is opposite of “core” gameplay. While it may be different than "core" gameplay that doesn't make it wrong because GW2 is a very diverse game. One of the things that makes group content so much fun is the fact that you need to work as a TEAM to get an objective done. If the content is too easy then it’s not as entertaining

I think ANET has struck a good balance with EoD. There is some easy content, and much harder content.

----------

Anyhow back on topic to the OP. It would be nice if there was more flexibility for ALAC specter. In any case I am happy just to be able to give some boons if at all using my thief. DO I wish for more? Yes 100%.

Edited January 16, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415
clarity

[Infusion.7149]

 

Bit late here, but I am still of the opinion that having (traited) baseline quickness on thief after the 5 target "boon thief" change would have been better than stacking alacrity onto specter. Sometime before the pandemic I am pretty sure my suggestion was making boon thief gear relevant everywhere by allowing for Bountiful theft to apply quickness in AoE. Steal inherently is something you want to use on thief and that means that specter would be mutually exclusive with the quickness application as well if coded to not apply when using shadow shroud and instead apply when using a stolen skill.

Arenanet designed themselves into a corner with specter because the heal scaling is horrible and you get most of the benefits just running ritualist gear. In order for the single target healing to be relevant outside of toughness tanked bosses or on QtP / Soulless Horror (special action fixate tank) the UI has to be improved further with options to lock to someone and to autotarget the lowest party member or teammate.

There isn't much incentive to run alacrity specter because much like some other lesser played supports, you essentially spam utilities whether you need them or not. A more flexible spec such as firebrand, alac mech / renegade, quickness harbingers, quickness warriors (banners apply boons , barrier, and damage although the power quickness bladesworn uses up stab on banner of tactics and CC when applying banner of strength), alac mirage, or even StM chrono doesn't rely on spamming skills not for their intended purpose. Alacrity rangers , specifically druids get around this somewhat since the actives are not as timing dependent save for the CC on storm spirit (which is used on alac untamed and not heal alac druid). Then there is the other dilemma of positioning: something akin to a Fresh air power alac tempest does spam something it would normally be using but the leeway is not high and this also goes for quickness catalyst.

This is a pervasive design issue apparent on quickness scrapper (if you use blast gyro it means you lose one of your CC skills), alac chrono, quickness herald, and more so on alacrity specter.

edit:
in the meantime I would like Arenanet to be aiming for higher healing coefficients on specter skills, especially the (traited) well skills. There isn't a reason to apply high base heals since condi alac specter exists but if heal specter is to be even remotely a consideration the skills cannot be still using 0.1 heal coefficients.
Some ideas in that direction include:

• Traversing Dusk trait now scales with healing power to the tune of 1.5 in PVE. This means around 3K base heal per well at 1500 healing power. Given wells have 20 second cooldowns this is not excessive.
  • The alternative is improving Shadow Savior in the Shadow Arts line which currently only heals other people ~600 to 1.2K per shadow step at 1500 healing power as the scaling is 594+0.4* healing power.
• Revamp of Endless Night to apply alacrity when traited with Traversing Dusk. i.e. when using Traversing Dusk , Endless Night applies alacrity instead of quickness.
• Shadow Sap now scales barrier at 1.0 in PVE instead of 0.5 allowing for a 3K barrier instead of ~2.2K. Damage coefficient in PVE increased from 0.77 to 1.5 or alternatively pulse the barrier twice to allow for more rot wallow venom stacks. There is very little reason to use this skill currently so allowing for heal specter to work better should be a priority.
• Second Opinion now applies barrier (from all heal skills) when a specific target is healed over their maximum health. This improves Measured Shot indirectly. Regeneration and protection you apply to yourself is now applied to your tethered target. The main reason why Consume Shadows is far superior to Second Opinion is the bulky barrier application to 5 people without relying on healing power.
• Mind Shock now scales with healing power to the tune of 0.55. This means a 6.6K base heal when hitting 5 targets with 1500 healing power instead of a mere 3.3K. This would not be broken in PVE instances since you rarely get to hit 5 targets in PVE unless it's fractals. This also is only used once as part of the condi specter damage rotation.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

12 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

 

Bit late here, but I am still of the opinion that having (traited) baseline quickness on thief after the 5 target "boon thief" change would have been better than stacking alacrity onto specter. Sometime before the pandemic I am pretty sure my suggestion was making boon thief gear relevant everywhere by allowing for Bountiful theft to apply quickness in AoE. Steal inherently is something you want to use on thief and that means that specter would be mutually exclusive with the quickness application as well if coded to not apply when using shadow shroud and instead apply when using a stolen skill.

Arenanet designed themselves into a corner with specter because the heal scaling is horrible and you get most of the benefits just running ritualist gear. In order for the single target healing to be relevant outside of toughness tanked bosses or on QtP / Soulless Horror (special action fixate tank) the UI has to be improved further with options to lock to someone and to autotarget the lowest party member or teammate.

There isn't much incentive to run alacrity specter because much like some other lesser played supports, you essentially spam utilities whether you need them or not. A more flexible spec such as firebrand, alac mech / renegade, quickness harbingers, quickness warriors (banners apply boons , barrier, and damage although the power quickness bladesworn uses up stab on banner of tactics and CC when applying banner of strength), alac mirage, or even StM chrono doesn't rely on spamming skills not for their intended purpose. Alacrity rangers , specifically druids get around this somewhat since the actives are not as timing dependent save for the CC on storm spirit (which is used on alac untamed and not heal alac druid). Then there is the other dilemma of positioning: something akin to a Fresh air power alac tempest does spam something it would normally be using but the leeway is not high and this also goes for quickness catalyst.

This is a pervasive design issue apparent on quickness scrapper (if you use blast gyro it means you lose one of your CC skills), alac chrono, quickness herald, and more so on alacrity specter.

edit:
in the meantime I would like Arenanet to be aiming for higher healing coefficients on specter skills, especially the (traited) well skills. There isn't a reason to apply high base heals since condi alac specter exists but if heal specter is to be even remotely a consideration the skills cannot be still using 0.1 heal coefficients.
Some ideas in that direction include:

• Traversing Dusk trait now scales with healing power to the tune of 1.5 in PVE. This means around 3K base heal per well at 1500 healing power. Given wells have 20 second cooldowns this is not excessive.
  • The alternative is improving Shadow Savior in the Shadow Arts line which currently only heals other people ~600 to 1.2K per shadow step at 1500 healing power as the scaling is 594+0.4* healing power.
• Revamp of Endless Night to apply alacrity when traited with Traversing Dusk. i.e. when using Traversing Dusk , Endless Night applies alacrity instead of quickness.
• Shadow Sap now scales barrier at 1.0 in PVE instead of 0.5 allowing for a 3K barrier instead of ~2.2K. Damage coefficient in PVE increased from 0.77 to 1.5 or alternatively pulse the barrier twice to allow for more rot wallow venom stacks. There is very little reason to use this skill currently so allowing for heal specter to work better should be a priority.
• Second Opinion now applies barrier (from all heal skills) when a specific target is healed over their maximum health. This improves Measured Shot indirectly. Regeneration and protection you apply to yourself is now applied to your tethered target. The main reason why Consume Shadows is far superior to Second Opinion is the bulky barrier application to 5 people without relying on healing power.
• Mind Shock now scales with healing power to the tune of 0.55. This means a 6.6K base heal when hitting 5 targets with 1500 healing power instead of a mere 3.3K. This would not be broken in PVE instances since you rarely get to hit 5 targets in PVE unless it's fractals. This also is only used once as part of the condi specter damage rotation.

I had an idea a while I was typing my last post, but didn't add it for clarity's sake. What if skill 3 in shroud was considered a "well"? I think it would add to the ALAC build if ALAC was speced. Mind you it does fear so that's not optimal in all situations.

Edited January 16, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Doggie.3184]

On 1/12/2023 at 7:49 AM, Serperior.6541 said:

Alac on Tempest is fine, but anet added it to the end of the animation rather than pulse for some reason

Tempest Alac is a fine spot but people seem to want it to be at beginning of overload instead of at end, which would certainly make it more reliable.

[Doggie.3184]

On 1/12/2023 at 11:59 AM, kash.9213 said:

Maybe detail the changes to Shroud you're talking about. When you say overhaul, then I feel like just flat out disagreeing with you because aside from some radius and minor changes, I really like how Shroud feels right now all the way down the line, especially in large moving fights.

You have a good point about moving more of the team composition dynamic to Siphon, especially the way Wells feel designed to be more of a clutch response or for influencing a lane if you're moving people in or out. They want Specter to still move like a thief instead of being a static buff bot but then Wells have to be used off cooldown most of the time which is counter to that responsive, mobile, and improvised design.

I just don't like how the healing/support aspect wants us to just delete our whole shroud bar instead of actually using it's skills. If they were too picky to just give Alacrity to Siphon and want us to do more to apply it then it'd likely need us to apply it with Shroud skills somehow, and I give no details on a Shroud redesign cuz that'd be their job to figure out if they ever decided to go that route and put these role-defining holy trinity boons on F skills universally. Ideally I'd just want it on Siphon and for them to fix it to work on self (without a target) like Steal/Swipe and it'd probably be less work for them to do it that way.

[Infusion.7149]

11 hours ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

I had an idea a while I was typing my last post, but didn't add it for clarity's sake. What if skill 3 in shroud was considered a "well"? I think it would add to the ALAC build if ALAC was speced. Mind you it does fear so that's not optimal in all situations.

If you just want alacrity added onto a Traversing Dusk specter it doesn't need to be a well honestly. Just look at chrono, if you run the alacrity trait then your shield skill adds alacrity.
Chrono's Stretched Time trait reads as follows: The first pulse of a well also applies alacrity to allies near the well. Tides of Time now also applies alacrity in an area when cast.

Chrono's Seize the Moment Trait reads as follows: You and nearby allies gain quickness for each clone you shatter. Tides of Time now also applies quickness in an area when cast.