Meta is at one of its most unfun point

[Vancho.8750]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

You can win a game with close uncapped the whole game. Whenever I find myself in this position I just snowball mid with numbers advantage and take far. The SpB/Cata isn't going to be fast enough to hold both sides at once. 

This is in the worst case scenario where the SpB/Cata is just outplaying our team and we can't kill them even with numbers advantage. If we keep overinvesting into them over and over and getting very little out of it... We deserve to lose tbh. 

I'm not going to pretend this meta is perfect (Buff scrapper pls ty), but that's been a common complaint around here ever since Feb 2020 dropped. CMC swooped in, nerfed boon duration, nerfed stab into the ground (Remember when Corona burst gave stab and Elixir U gave multiple stacks for longer than 1 second? Using engi as an example because it's what I play the most). He also nerfed stunbreaks and auto proc defensive traits. (Unhealthy as these were, they prevented situations where you'd get stunlocked and one shot)

Ever since then, for 3 years people came onto the forums, complained that they were getting stunlocked and killed by builds that were simultanously too tanky, had too much sustain, and/or did too much damage. 

 

As for the meta being at its most unfun point... That's subjective, but I can think of several that were worse. 

There was was that period where people desperately wanted mender amulet gone because bunkers had too much sustain, and supports had the durability of bunkers, so CMC deleted mender, forced supports/bunkers to run avatar instead, and added transferrence so there was some trade-off when running a support. 

There was also that meta where MinionMaster was... not a troll build and winning MAT. That was an actual dumpster fire. 

There was the meta that lasted what felt like forever where we basically had FB/Scourge back, but instead of FB it was core guard. I still have nightmares of bunker mender scourges abusing blood bank + sancturary rune and "outplaying" me by face tanking my entire burst, never dodging, and loading me up with more condis than I could cleanse... 

There was the meta where condi thief was everywhere, and if you didn't have a panic button to deal with the instant condi application you just died. That got nerfed real fast. 

There was the holy trinity meta just after feb 2020 where you played Necro + FB + Rev (condi rev, power rev, and renegade were all viable) and if you didn't you most likely lost of the enemy team was running that comp. 

There was that meta where Spirit spam renegade made any node they were on a disco light show. They could also go full bunker and chunk you to 50% hp by abusing soulcleave lifesteal + mad king rune. 

Good times. 

During all of these metas people were still getting stunlocked btw. Both in game and Irl. 

 

This meta is heaven compared to back then. At least in my opinion. 

I didn't like the previous meta since it was all about getting "ganked" by 4 people with teleports. I kinda like the current one since it is more about technical play "I do this, they do that, I do this" (even if stuff like Dragon tooth being free AOE damage and that is kinda iffy), and it kinda ends up in fighting the battle instead of the previous hit and run. 
Now you can kinda tell when you are kittening up and if other people are playing better than you (maybe people don't like to be shown that though), before you couldn't even if you did play the right way since you got rolled anyway because the whole team teleported on your head. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

20 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Hopefully Anet will listen to reason and release a balance patch that shaves a few Cata skills down and reduces scepter dps, and not much else.

Cata/Ele in general actually needs significant nerfing, not shaving.

This class is currently a one-shot tank-invuln machine that has enough super speed & teleport to chase any target.

It's dominant in every category except stealth & reveal.

It needs to be brought back to the planet that the other classes exist on.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Kuma.1503]

Just now, Rarnark.5623 said:

The quote you posted is from mariugo.4856.  Is everything ok bud?

Ah I got you two confused since you both have no icon. I noticed that just before you responded as well. 

That explains the confusion I was having. I couldn't figure out why you thought the meta was the way it was when so many builds were strong but they were two seperate conversations. 

[Sahne.6950]

There is people saying that there have been worse times in terms of balancing....  i will disagree with this.

There have been builds more obnoxious... thats right.... heavier outliers.... thats right...

But even in Chronobunker days, you had more profession variety than we had in last MAT.   Just saying.

https://imgur.com/om8IByG

Teams running 4 Spellbreakers....  Thats pretty unusual to say the least.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I'm so happy that people without stunbreaks are finally starting to get put in situations where they evaporate, instead of being able to survive bursts when they've already pressed all their buttons. 

 

Spb and Cata need some thoughtful dialing back, but objectively getting fed 20k damage in 5 seconds because you 

a) failed to dodge the cc move

b.) didnt have a button to correct your mistake

Is exactly what I want. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[mariugo.4856]

22 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Ah I got you two confused since you both have no icon. I noticed that just before you responded as well. 

That explains the confusion I was having. I couldn't figure out why you thought the meta was the way it was when so many builds were strong but they were two seperate conversations. 

Point is, he was referring to the best meta comp for mat, wich is made of 4 ele, and i was referring to both meta and viable class in unranked being unskilled/unfun, therefore both our arguments are  not only different but also correct for entirely different reasons lol

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by mariugo.4856

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, mariugo.4856 said:

Point is, he was referring to the best meta comp for mat, wich is made of 4 ele, and i was referring to both meta and viable class in unranked being unskilled/unfun, therefore both our arguments are  not only different but also correct for entirely different reasons lol

 

Fair. I'm with you both on Ele being the biggest outlier right now. That much is a fact. 

It's on the opinionated part that I disagree, that this is the most unfun meta we've ever had. If I had to pick the least fun meta I've ever experienced, it would be when bunker scourge + core guard were tearing up both ranked and unranked. 

At least these scepter catas have the decency to die if they play like literal vegetables. 

[mariugo.4856]

On 1/16/2023 at 1:53 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm so happy that people without stunbreaks are finally starting to get put in situations where they evaporate, instead of being able to survive bursts when they've already pressed all their buttons. 

 

Spb and Cata need some thoughtful dialing back, but objectively getting fed 20k damage in 5 seconds because you 

a) failed to dodge the cc move

b.) didnt have a button to correct your mistake

Is exactly what I want. 

Literally no one plays without stunbreak, but when 70% of the meta builds posses semi-oneshot stunlock combo you often stunbreak a stunlock once or twice just to get stunned again by someone else immediately after. idk about your tastes but being forced to play a bit offensively only when i have all my stunbreak because anyone can stunlock me to death does not sound appealing to me

Edited January 17, 2023 by mariugo.4856

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

45 minutes ago, mariugo.4856 said:

stunbreak a stunlock once or twice just to get stunned again by someone else-

 

This isn't an issue with the meta, though. This is an issue with running out of panic buttons then getting outnumbered. You can't balance getting outnumbered out of the game.

 

Quote

semi-oneshot

 

It's not semi oneshot. If you have a stunbreak you live. what you do after that stunbreak is pressed, as well as what you do to preserve them are significant parts of mastery of the game. 

I understand you don't like it, but what do you propose instead of not dodging - > chain stun - > death if you dont stunbreak, that is also fair for the opponent? 

Quote

idk about your tastes but being forced to play a bit offensively only when i have all my stunbreak because anyone can stunlock me to death does not sound appealing to me

You don't have to play offensively only when you have all your stunbreaks. There's room to play offensively even when you -dont- have them, as well as preserving them to begin with, if you evade or block the skills that cause the cc. 

What would you like instead?

Edited January 17, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[mariugo.4856]

5 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

This isn't an issue with the meta, though. This is an issue with running out of panic buttons then getting outnumbered. You can't balance getting outnumbered out of the game.

 

 

It's not semi oneshot. If you have a stunbreak you live. what you do after that stunbreak is pressed, as well as what you do to preserve them are significant parts of mastery of the game. 

I understand you don't like it, but what do you propose instead of not dodging - > chain stun - > death if you dont stunbreak, that is also fair for the opponent? 

Keep in mind that we got to this point because people were not happy with instantly dying when they didn't dodge key skills. Now there is a larger window to avoid those key skills. If you want it still larger, how should it be balanced for the people who landed the skills? 

You seem to either not understand what i'm saying or simply you do not know the classes we are talking about.

Let's make a practical example with a random teamcomp of all different but meta/viable classes you can easily find in ranked:

 

Spellbreaker = Backbreaker : 3 sec, Staggering blow: 1 sec, Earthshaker 1.3 sec, Full counter 1.5 sec daze = Total chain cc time 5.8 secs

+

Holosmith = Tool kit stun:1.5, Slick Shoes: 2 sec ,Holographic Shockwave: 2.5,  Magnetic Inversion: 2 sec, Prime Light Beam: 2.5, trowh Shield: 1 sec daze = Total chain cc time 11.5 sec (Lmao)

+

Catalyst  (dagger offhand) = Earthquake x2:  4 second, updraft:  2.5 = Total chain cc time = 6 seconds

Catalyst (focus offhand) = Galex2 = 6seconds

+

Necro = staff fear 1.25 sec, Spectral ring 1.25, Vile blast: 1.25, Vital Draw: 3 sec, Voracious Arc 0.5 daze = Total chain cc time =7.25 secs

+

Random support 

 

Now, you have to realize that when 4, or even only 3 people  in the enemy team can cc you for longer than 5 seconds you will have an hard time to manage your defensive resources, i do not "panic stunbreak" i simply use stunbreak to avoid getting cc to death by almost any of the spec that are played atm, also you cannot ignore the outnumbered factor entirely since gw2 is based a lot on teamfight, so being focused by more than 1 person is very common, having every single one of those who can focus you being able to stun for ages is a bad design since it takes very little skill to spam the list of the stun i wrote before every time untill you happen to find someone without stunbreak off cd

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

14 minutes ago, mariugo.4856 said:

Now, you have to realize that when 4, or even only 3 people  in the enemy team can cc you for longer than 5 seconds you will have an hard time to manage your defensive resources, i do not "panic stunbreak" i simply use stunbreak to avoid getting cc to death by almost any of the spec that are played atm, also you cannot ignore the outnumbered factor entirely since gw2 is based a lot on teamfight, so being focused by more than 1 person is very common, having every single one of those who can focus you being able to stun for ages is a bad design since it takes very little skill to spam the list of the stun i wrote before every time untill you happen to find someone without stunbreak off cd

 

... Why are you putting yourself in a position where 3/4 people can cc you without you getting aggro peel from literally anyone else on your team? You're right, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. It comes off as you getting focused in teamfights when there are ways to mitigate that focus that don't require reworking several classes. 

Quote

also you cannot ignore the outnumbered factor entirely since gw2 is based a lot on teamfight,

No, you can't ignore it, but you also can't balance classes based on "If four of these target the same person theyll have a bad time". 

Quote

being focused by more than 1 person is very common, having every single one of those who can focus you being able to stun for ages is a bad design since it takes very little skill to spam the list of the stun

Getting focused by more than one person and locked down can be skillful. If someone called target on you because they saw you burn your defensives, the team turning their attention to you instead of anyone else helping you is a skillful play. 

Instead of thinking CC should be reworked because getting hit by a bunch of it removes your ability to play the game, it would be easier for you and for the balancing direction if you looked for indicators that certain skills have been used and positioned yourself in such a way that four people cannot drop on you without you having an answer to them, don't you think? 

If the CC incoming is hard to see or something that is another problem entirely. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[mariugo.4856]

6 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

... Why are you putting yourself in a position where 3/4 people can cc you without you getting aggro peel from literally anyone else on your team? You're right, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. It comes off as you getting focused in teamfights when there are ways to mitigate that focus that don't require reworking several classes. 

 

 

No, you can't ignore it, but you also can't balance classes based on "If four of these target the same person theyll have a bad time". 

 

 

Getting focused by more than one person and locked down can be skillful. If someone called target on you because they saw you burn your defensives, the team turning their attention to you instead of anyone else helping you is a skillful play. 

Dude obviously the point is not you always being focused by 4 class lol

 

I will try to make it as simple as i can:

The point is that 80% of the meta specs are bursting class with access to some form of a stunlock combo that can kill you.

A stunlock combo takes very little skill, it's a static combo that does not takes in account many factors besides stunbreak; you can learn the combo in no more than 20 minutes.

Having a lot of classes that force you to stunbreak makes for many chances of finding enemies without stunbreaks avaiable.

Being killed by unskilled means is not fun.

 

Having unfun strategies being meta == meta is unfun

 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

42 minutes ago, mariugo.4856 said:

A stunlock combo takes very little skill, it's a static combo that does not takes in account many factors besides stunbreak; you can learn the combo in no more than 20 minutes.

 

You're looking at it backwards though.

 

A stunlock combo is a kill confirm. The skill isn't in the execution of the combo, the skill is in putting you in a position that removes your ability to avoid or mitigate the stunlock combo (counting dodges, counting cds, baiting dodges or counting channel uptime, etc). Once you're in a position where you cannot avoid the stunlock combo, the interaction is already over, and you living depends on your opponent whiffing something critical (like dropping a combo if your opponent doesn't have a combo cancel). Being upset at the simplicity of the cc chain as the indicator of how much skill it demands is like looking at a book summary and writing a report on it. All the context is being ignored. 

 

Quote

Having a lot of classes that force you to stunbreak makes for many chances of finding enemies without stunbreaks avaiable.

 

Okay? If you don't have stunbreaks available, play defensively/actively evade the moves that would initiate the stunlock combo. 

 

Quote

Being killed by unskilled means is not fun.

 

What alternative would be fun for you and still fair?  Give me a use case. What would you like Spellbreaker/Holo/Cata to do instead of what they do now? If a hammer spb hits you with backbreaker, what reward should they get? 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[mariugo.4856]

9 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

You're looking at it backwards though.

 

A stunlock combo is a kill confirm. The skill isn't in the execution of the combo, the skill is in putting you in a position that removes your ability to avoid or mitigate the stunlock combo (counting dodges, counting cds, baiting dodges or counting channel uptime, etc). Once you're in a position where you cannot avoid the stunlock combo, the interaction is already over, and you living depends on your opponent whiffing something critical (like dropping a combo if your opponent doesn't have a combo cancel). Being upset at the simplicity of the cc chain as the indicator of how much skill it demands is like looking at a book summary and writing a report on it. All the context is being ignored. 

 

 

Okay? If you don't have stunbreaks available, play defensively/actively evade the moves that would initiate the stunlock combo. 

 

 

What alternative would be fun for you and still fair?  Give me a use case. What would you like Spellbreaker/Holo/Cata to do instead of what they do now? If a hammer spb hits you with backbreaker, what reward should they get? 

No i am not looking at it backwards, if you don't dodge to avoid their regular damage you will die without even being stunned, that's because they are BURSTING CLASSES with STUNLOCK COMBOS on low cd.

So yet again i will reiterate it, and if you focus on the uppercase letters you may grasp the point, the problem with this meta is that there are a lot of BURSTING CLASSES wich also possess STUNLOCK COMBOS therefore making it a meta with a lot of STUNLOCK COMBOS, wich are genrally UNFUN

 

Your question about the spellbreaker is fundamentally wrong, specs solely focused on stunlocking you to death simply shouldn't exist, they are not skilled nor fun to play against, you either split their skill from pvp/pve or just nerf them so they are not played

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

^^^ This is how Feb2020 happened. ^^^

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

15 minutes ago, mariugo.4856 said:

Your question about the spellbreaker is fundamentally wrong, specs solely focused on stunlocking you to death simply shouldn't exist, they are not skilled nor fun to play against, you either split their skill from pvp/pve or just nerf them so they are not played

So your solution is to just remove cc classes, in this case spellbreaker, from the meta entirely? No rework proposition that would make the class more fun to play, or play against? You have a fundamental hangup with the way the class functions? 

Quote

No i am not looking at it backwards, if you don't dodge to avoid their regular damage you will die without even being stunned, that's because they are BURSTING CLASSES with STUNLOCK COMBOS on low cd.

 

So yet again i will reiterate it, and if you focus on the uppercase letters you may grasp the point, the problem with this meta is that there are a lot of BURSTING CLASSES wich also possess STUNLOCK COMBOS therefore making it a meta with a lot of STUNLOCK COMBOS, wich are genrally UNFUN

Do you want just direct bursting then? 

If you fight one of these classes, would you rather take all the damage up front instead of getting windows to react via 7 damage cc? I'd love to just hit you for 15k on eviscerate like the before times instead of doing this whole song and dance where I have to respect your entire utility bar. 

Here's another question. What class right now is an example of what you want? 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

So your solution is to just remove cc classes, in this case spellbreaker, from the meta entirely? No rework proposition that would make the class more fun to play, or play against? You have a fundamental hangup with the way the class functions? 

Do you want just direct bursting then? 

If you fight one of these classes, would you rather take all the damage up front instead of getting windows to react via 7 damage cc? I'd love to just hit you for 15k on eviscerate like the before times instead of doing this whole song and dance where I have to respect your entire utility bar. 

 

Nah, you see Azure, they don't want you to have the 15k Eviscerate back, they want it to be 3k, because after all that's 25% of their HP bar and we can't be having glass low HP classes getting downed that quickly now can we.

[mariugo.4856]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

So your solution is to just remove spellbreaker from the meta entirely? No rework proposition that would make the class more fun to play, or play against? You have a fundamental hangup with the way the class functions? 

 

Do you want just direct bursting then? 

If you fight one of these classes, would you rather take all the damage up front instead of getting windows to react via 7 damage cc?

 

I just said "you either split their skill from pvp/pve or just nerf them so they are not played"   wich quite literally means that EITHER they get reworked OR that they get REMOVED so yeah, idk why i am still answering you since it seems that your main goal here is just to disagree without even reading. Yet again that's my fault in the first place for trying to do something as cursed as trying to discuss on pvp balance on an official mmo forum

 

I want a hybrid meta, where there are stuns, but not every clas has them, pre EoD meta was a perfect example, there were some meta classes with stuns, but none had an average stunlock time of 6 seconds.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Ele is weird for me as 90% of the time the ones I: run into are good but not problematic (even in mid-g3 where I should be getting matched with plat too).  There's one or two that really show how absolutely nuts catalyst can be though, and from my perspective it does directly relate to damage mitigation and not burst.  

Same sorta applies to spellbreaker, but those are much easier to use and so even if they player isn't proficient you end up stalling or losing a node most times when one is present.  Depending on spellbreaker I often have to go out and chase them around to avoid team just repeatedly feeding home or wasting time off-node, etc.  I find if I chase them then team can do other things and have a higher win rate.  

Which is why I am torn on this.  I'm not sure if these specs are super out of line or Ranger (which I main) is just under-performing outside of teleburst untamed; which I rarely see untamed anyway at higher levels and if do it has been tank variant and not burst.  

[Kuma.1503]

From what I've gathered from this conversation. The fundamental hangup is that a class with high burst damage, like Cata, and Holo should not simultanously possess the ability to spam multiple CCs on you. 

This is a problem because:

A. The sheer amount of CC they have overwhelms your defensive cooldowns and you WILL eventually run out of defenses and die to them. You cannot possibly avoid everything they throw at you

B. Once your defenses are inevitably overwhelmed, they have the burst damage to insta kill you

C. They do so much damage WITHOUT stunlocking you that you will have to burn your defenses even faster, which speeds up your inevitable death. 

 

If you're on the receiving end of this, it's only natural to get frustrated. You feel like your death was inevitable because the opposing build has too much pressure for one person to be able to possibly mitigate. Throw 2 or more people into the mix, and your odds of survival drop further, because you can take everything listed above and multiply it by 2. Or multiply it by 3. 

 

Now, heres why I think giving these burst heavy classes the ability to stunlock you is healthy for the game. 

I'm going to try to explain this in fighting game terms, because I think it will help me illustrate my point. In this game there are 3 states.

Neutral - Both you and your opponent are looking for an opening on each other

Advantage - You gained the advantage in neutral. You have more options than your opponent. Your goal is to press your advantage. 

Disadvantage - Your opponent gained the advantage in neutral. You have fewer options than your opponent and your goal is to reset back to neutral. 

 

The way things are now, when you and your opponent are in neutral, you're throwing out safe, easy to land attacks to pressure your opponent. These will deal enough damage to force some cooldowns out of you, but usually will not kill you outright. 

As you do so, you're looking for an opening to set up a kill. You normally do this with some kind of telegraphed CC. 

 

If you land the stun, you transition into advantage. This is where you use your burst to secure a kill on your opponent. Your opponent's goal is to use any defenses (stunbreaks, invulns, instant casts, ect.) to escape the situation and reset to neutral. If they don't have the cooldowns or fail to react in time, they die. 

The skill does not come from executing the combo itself. The skill comes from your ability to consistently navigate neutral state and gain an advantage. If you consistently find yourself in disadvantage, and you either don't react in time, or don't have enough cooldowns left to survive you were outplayed. 

It's a GOOD thing that these bursty classes have more CC than you have defenses. This guarantees that fights EVENTUALLY END.  If you consistently mismanage your resources during neutral and run out of life-saving tools when put in disadvantage, you deserve to die. 

If you consistently mess up in neutral and end up in disadvantage over and over again. You got outplayed. 

 

 

Lets say we remove the ability for these high burst builds to set up their kill by stunlocking you... In that scenario, one of two things happen. 

 

1. We end up in a bunkery meta where people live for entirely too long because it's difficult to reliably set up an advantage on your opponent. Best case scenario, you end up needing 2 people to secure consistently secure a kill on 1 person. 1 person to stunlock because they have the CC, but lack the burst to secure the kill, and another to land the burst off of that CC. 

You end up at the mercy of your teamates in this scenario and individual player agency goes down. 

2. We end up in a meta where we skip advantage and disadvantage entirely. Instead of looking for an opening to set up your burst, you just... land the burst raw with no set up. This means you might randomly get crit for 15k by [insert skill here] and drop dead. You don't even have the chance to react to a CC skill and stunbreak to survive. You just die outright... 

 

This was an overly simplistic explanation. There's more depth to this than what I've written here, but If I really got into the nitty gritty, this post would be many, many pages long. 

 

Neither of these scenarios are desirable. So to the OP... I'd suggest putting down the monkey paw and REALLY re- evaluating what you're asking for. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

29 minutes ago, mariugo.4856 said:

I want a hybrid meta, where there are stuns, but not every clas has them, pre EoD meta was a perfect example, there were some meta classes with stuns, but none had an average stunlock time of 6 seconds.

 

For the classes that have stuns, how much damage should they do?

For the classes that don't have stuns, how much damage should they do?

If a class doesn't stunlock you for 6 seconds, would you rather take damage during that time instead?

 

16 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Neither of these scenarios are desirable. So to the OP... I'd suggest putting down the monkey paw and REALLY re- evaluating what you're asking for. 

 

No, no, let him cook.

Eventually he'll get tired of directly attacking me for not parroting him and will realize that 6 seconds stunned, but standing is annoying, but going directly to downstate (or having additional chances to press buttons and prolong the fight, such that nobody sentient will down) are the alternatives. 

Or he won't. both are fine. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[mariugo.4856]

aight guys, i'm outta it, it seems you guys enjoy this meta, my point is simple, i think having a billion of stun and invulnerability is kitten and require little skill to exploit them, you guys seem to enjoy it, have fun.

I think however that you guys never even made above let's say gold 3 since no sane person would enjoy playing against 5 non trash players that do exploit in a decent way their class mechanics (e.g. invulnerabilities and stunlock combos) 

peace out

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, mariugo.4856 said:

aight guys, i'm outta it, it seems you guys enjoy this meta, my point is simple, i think having a billion of stun and invulnerability is kitten and require little skill to exploit them, you guys seem to enjoy it, have fun.

I think however that you guys never even made above let's say gold 3 since no sane person would enjoy playing against 5 non trash players that do exploit in a decent way their class mechanics (e.g. invulnerabilities and stunlock combos) 

peace out

 

Annnd scene. 

 

Love to talk to you again sometime but you have to answer -one- question, alright? 

[Kuma.1503]

Guy's frustrated.  Probably came here to rant, have their frustrations validated by likeminded people. 

Having a  conversation was never the goal. 

I've definitely been there before. 

flashback to every Feb 2020 sucks post I've ever written

Edited January 17, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[mariugo.4856]

You two are the ephitome of forum warriors, i explained my reasons about 10 times and you guys pretty much ignored 95%of what i explained, Azure even answered to a message where i proposed to either change or remove hammer sb from the meta with "So your solution is to just remove spellbreaker from the meta entirely?"

Your attempt at hazing people on forum are physically cringing me, have fun with your clearly too much free time

Edited January 17, 2023 by mariugo.4856