Mantra Change in WvW

[Zikory.6871]

Please reconsider this in WvW. I get removing the cast was a boring change and removed some counter play but the quality of playability was massive. Going back to having to remember to charge mantra and having to charge mid engagement is going to push holding the last charge again. Doesn't really matter how good the last charge is, it won't outweigh having to put you and your hold party at risk to charge your mantra. 

I'm not against changing mantras but you can come up with something better. This will just lead people to not using skills so they aren't punished for it.

[Sheff.4851]

Agree with this. It's also not necessarily about the existence of the cast time, but the length of the cast time. Any cast time over a half second or so is a pretty tall ask for WvW. Tuning down the benefits for the initial Mantra cast, but also tuning down the duration of that initial cast, would likely make them more interesting to use.

 

Just throwing a random idea out -- the initial charge of a Firebrand's heal mantra gives an additional boon, but subsequent casts don't. This generates incentives to use up your Mantra charges to regain the benefit from the initial cast, rather than cause you to hold onto charges you already have.

[Kodama.6453]

Easy fix to make people use the final charge of the mantra and recast them again: no more ammunition recharge. If you want the charges of the mantra back, then use all charges and recast the mantra.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Easy fix to make people use the final charge of the mantra and recast them again: no more ammunition recharge. If you want the charges of the mantra back, then use all charges and recast the mantra.

What? Then there's no incentive to NOT spend the final charge. The intent is a dynamic interaction between choosing when it's best to maintain a smaller benefit versus using the final charge for a bigger effect. Your idea just trades the option for sustaining a measured effect to force a burst.

[Infusion.7149]

People keep complaining about boon balls and unskilled blobbing , so bringing back the original iteration of mantras actually cuts back on that.

Knowing when to expend all charges is a skill that has long since been forgotten. The same goes for mesmer mantras as well. If the mantras are insta cast the only thing keeping them in check was the charge time.

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

What? Then there's no incentive to NOT spend the final charge. The intent is a dynamic interaction between choosing when it's best to maintain a smaller benefit versus using the final charge for a bigger effect. Your idea just trades the option for sustaining a measured effect to force a burst.

Tbh, I think this is how it's actually going to work.

That's how mantras worked originally, they were not restacking their charges over time by themselves. You got all charges when charging up the mantra with the cast animation, then you could spend them and they were not recharging. Once you spent all charges, you had to cast the mantra again to get the charges back.

They mentioned in the stream (iirc), that they are adding this feature back to give the skills some counterplay back. If the charges would still recharge like they do currently, then this counterplay doesn't exist. Because you can just decide to sit on at least one charge and keep the recharge ticking without ever having to deal with the recast again. People will just ignore the counterplay this change is supposed to provide.

It's more likely for me that they are going back to the original version with no over time ammunition recharge.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Tbh, I think this is how it's actually going to work.

That's how mantras worked originally, they were not restacking their charges over time by themselves. You got all charges when charging up the mantra with the cast animation, then you could spend them and they were not recharging. Once you spent all charges, you had to cast the mantra again to get the charges back.

They mentioned in the stream (iirc), that they are adding this feature back to give the skills some counterplay back. If the charges would still recharge like they do currently, then this counterplay doesn't exist. Because you can just decide to sit on at least one charge and keep the recharge ticking without ever having to deal with the recast again. People will just ignore the counterplay this change is supposed to provide.

It's more likely for me that they are going back to the original version with no over time ammunition recharge.

Nope. They said in the stream that FB would have to choose whether to expend the last charge and go on longer CD or keep the smaller CD of the lesser charges. The intended counter play is whether to keep the smaller, steady effect or go for the burst O or D. Tool tips in the gameplay confirmed it too.

[Kodama.6453]

8 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Nope. They said in the stream that FB would have to choose whether to expend the last charge and go on longer CD or keep the smaller CD of the lesser charges. The intended counter play is whether to keep the smaller, steady effect or go for the burst O or D. Tool tips in the gameplay confirmed it too.

Welp, then the counterplay is pointless. People will simply not recast the mantra and therefore there is still no counterplay.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Zikory.6871]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

People keep complaining about boon balls and unskilled blobbing , so bringing back the original iteration of mantras actually cuts back on that.

Wishful thinking but it won't. Keeping 1 charge in the tank is already good practice. This will mostly just make it annoying. I'd be surprised if "boon balls" used more the 2 mantras anyway. Plus FBs can just give themselves quickness. 

 

I enjoy the tome change so I think they can do something more fun then cast time or no cast time. 

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Zikory.6871 said:

Wishful thinking but it won't. Keeping 1 charge in the tank is already good practice. This will mostly just make it annoying. I'd be surprised if "boon balls" used more the 2 mantras anyway. Plus FBs can just give themselves quickness. 

 

I enjoy the tome change so I think they can do something more fun then cast time or no cast time. 

It's good practice but this would set apart the bad guardians. Keep in mind people are running 4s cast time overloads on aura tempest, the mantra charge time is actually less.

It's no different than core game WVW when people all had to reset for Empower.

[Zikory.6871]

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's good practice but this would set apart the bad guardians. Keep in mind people are running 4s cast time overloads on aura tempest, the mantra charge time is actually less.

It's no different than core game WVW when people all had to reset for Empower.

Well that's besides my point. I get the counter play aspect and I agree in smaller scale but large scale it will mostly just be an annoyance. So my ask is to reconsider it, or reimagine mantras. Not picky really. Tomes are pretty dome so...

[hash.8462]

I hope that at least they will fix the bug that sometimes show the incorrect number of ammo.

[Ragnar.4257]

Its apparently too much to ask players of this game to remember to charge their mantras when loading in to a map, or having to make the big-brain giga-IQ decision of whether to expend the final charge for a bigger pay-off in exchange for having to do a lengthy recast, or to wait the few seconds needed to regain a charge.

Like, exactly how basic and autopilot does this game need to be for you people? "oh noes, I can't just mash my buttons on cooldown, I actually have to think whether or not to use a skill".

Taking away the final-charge/recast mechanic was always a dumb decision that only the smoothest of smooth brains could think was good for gameplay. Glad its being reversed.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Ragnar.4257

[Zikory.6871]

9 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Its apparently too much to ask players of this game to remember to charge their mantras when loading in to a map, or having to make the big-brain giga-IQ decision of whether to expend the final charge for a bigger pay-off in exchange for having to do a lengthy recast, or to wait the few seconds needed to regain a charge.

Like, exactly how basic and autopilot does this game need to be for you people? "oh noes, I can't just mash my buttons on cooldown, I actually have to think whether or not to use a skill".

Taking away the final-charge/recast mechanic was always a dumb decision that only the smoothest of smooth brains could think was good for gameplay. Glad its being reversed.

Its hard to respond to people without comprehension skills trying to be edgy.

Cast time was not FUN to play with. Granted the past balance team changed it because it was "to hard" or whatever, difficulty of use is not my stance.

No cast time is also not fun and is a brain dead change. Agree. However playability was much improved for large scale.

So gather all the wrinkles you got left and realized the OP is asking to think of something different for mantras. Counter play and having to make a skill decisions its fine but the only smooth brains are the ones thinking people are going to be making big brain decisions and not just do exactly what we did before.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

17 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Welp, then the counterplay is pointless. People will simply not recast the mantra and therefore there is still no counterplay.

That is the concern, yes. The fix, imo, would be to drastically shorten the charge animation to something reasonable and/or make sure the last charge grants benefits worthy of being spent.

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

I’m not sure if it’s been said yet, but what if it had some function like the bladesworn ammo heal. As in it retains the passively regenerating ammo without the need to charge it and each ammo is it’s normal current effect. The change would be removing the cooldown in between the ammo charges and having that mechanic where if you use a second charge while under the effect of a prior charge, it becomes a more powerful effect or grants extra bonuses and such. (they’d need some type of lingering buff or something I guess, but maybe it can also show by flipping on your utility bar for 3-5s and use the old utility art they had removed) There’s flaws with the idea, and maybe it’s a bit strong with 3 charges. 2 charges for each mantra would prob be best. I think it’d be an interesting choice in combat without reintroducing the tedious recharging.

[Ragnar.4257]

10 minutes ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

I’m not sure if it’s been said yet, but what if it had some function like the bladesworn ammo heal. As in it retains the passively regenerating ammo without the need to charge it and each ammo is it’s normal current effect. The change would be removing the cooldown in between the ammo charges and having that mechanic where if you use a second charge while under the effect of a prior charge, it becomes a more powerful effect or grants extra bonuses and such. (they’d need some type of lingering buff or something I guess, but maybe it can also show by flipping on your utility bar for 3-5s and use the old utility art they had removed) There’s flaws with the idea, and maybe it’s a bit strong with 3 charges. 2 charges for each mantra would prob be best. I think it’d be an interesting choice in combat without reintroducing the tedious recharging.

Its an interesting suggestion, but its addressing the wrong issue.

The issue the final-charge/recast mechanic is trying to address is the lack of counterplay for opponents. Instant-cast skills that automatically recharge have no counterplay.

While your suggestion would certainly make mantras more interesting and tactical, it doesn't address the issue that they were originally trying to address.

[anonymous.7812]

What about a middle ground? Last charge recharge is longer, but no cast time to recharge. Still a trade off, but no annoying charge mechanic.

[Hotride.2187]

The final charge of mantra of liberation was a legit heavy CD to use in a bad spot, same for opening passage. It felt worse and even more boring to play fb in a zerg when they removed final charges. I'm happy they are bringing them back.

If you just want to spam skills I'm sure there are still options available, its that sort of game.

And its not like you are constantly doing something as the partys fb. You had plenty of time to charge the mantras you blew. Waiting on the big CD was your tradeoff, not the charging cast...

Edited February 8, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Saiyan.1704]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:02 AM, Zikory.6871 said:

I'm not against changing mantras but you can come up with something better. This will just lead people to not using skills so they aren't punished for it.

It used to be that using the last Mantra actually saved you in clutch scenarios. It was the difference between a Good Firebrand player and a Great Firebrand player.

[Zikory.6871]

5 minutes ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

It used to be that using the last Mantra actually saved you in clutch scenarios. It was the difference between a Good Firebrand player and a Great Firebrand player.

While I appreciate your feed back and bumping my post. I think both of you are missing what I'm actually asking for. I'm not asking to keep the instant cast mantras or to not go through with this patch.

I'm also not suggesting a "solution" because I don't have one. I agree with their reason for "why", just think they can come up with something better then just reverting the cast time. The tome change is surprising neat, so I think they have the creativity to come up with something new.