[GC] Guild's opinion of PoF gold farming

[Ashen.2907]

0> @Erasculio.2914 said:

@Harper.4173 said:Considering for a long time it was the only end-game content - yes. It was THE content to do at one point and most players did it. Poorly, infrequently, but most players did it. And the data is in the game itself - if you bothered to play it.

Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalse.

Where is your proof? Where is the number of players Guild Wars 2 has, with the number of players who played through the dungeons, showing how a statistically significant majority of players actually went through them?

See, you have no proof. "The data is in the game itself" - hah, that's the emptiest statement I have ever seen.

There is a significant difference between something being false and it being unsupported by present evidence. A statement that his claim is false is every bit as definitive as his claim and would need to be supported just as much to be taken as more than smoke and mirrors.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I was skeptical because the reasons for the large jump was unrealistic in being able to be the core contributing factors. ...

Ah, that makes more sense than what I thought you were saying. Generally speaking, those seem like fair criticisms which I hope [CG] will address by first updating the website. It's a perennial problem when discussing farming methods: authors make a lot of assumptions about what 'everyone' does and leave off some of the steps they routinely take. It makes it hard to replicate.

(There are some nits I can pick with the specifics you mention, but I leave that to [CG] to clarify; it's their farm, not mine.)

They also are not accounting for current prices which I mentioned before. On that chart they have, they have 3,873 cured rugged leather squares being sold for 448G accounting for the tax. That means that the squares had a price of 13.71 silver at the time the chart was made. They're selling for 9.95 silver now. The other items I randomly picked also had lower prices. I suggest that they take that chart and recalculate all of the numbers with the current costs.That's another perennial problem with g/hr calcs. If their PoF farm uses the same numbers, then all is good: it's still apples to apples comparison. If not, ouch; that's a major problem with the benchmarks used.

I'm not saying that it's a bad farm but just that their numbers appear to be incorrect. While SW may still be more profitable than PoF, the actual difference that they're stating appears to be misleading. I just don't want this to be used to persuade players from doing potential future PoF meta farms or even saying that a potential PoF meta farm could be worse when in fact it's the opposite.

Agreed.And that's another reason why I wish the OP had separated the valuation of the farm from opinions about what that means for the game and separated that from what (if anything) ANet should do in response. Measuring gold/hour is difficult enough, with all the estimates that we have to make. Comparing benchmarks is even trickier because all assumptions and all mat values and time measurements have to be consistent. Compound that with making suggestions that depend on those benchmarks ... not a good mix.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I'm not saying that it's a bad farm but just that their numbers appear to be incorrect. While SW may still be more profitable than PoF, the actual difference that they're stating appears to be misleading. I just don't want this to be used to persuade players from doing potential future PoF meta farms or even saying that a potential PoF meta farm could be worse when in fact it's the opposite.

Agreed.And that's another reason why I wish the OP had separated the valuation of the farm from opinions about what that means for the game and separated that from what (if anything) ANet should do in response. Measuring gold/hour is difficult enough, with all the estimates that we have to make. Comparing benchmarks is even trickier because all assumptions and all mat values and time measurements have to be consistent. Compound that with making suggestions that depend on those benchmarks ... not a good mix.

On our website, we attribute the gold difference in the loss of leather 13s vs 9s, basically - TL;DR: mounts allow extra time for digging because of two big reasons:

1. they're faster and have burst teleports / movement for quick chest opening
2. items can be used WHILST you are mounted, namely the shovel - this allowed us to farm an extra 8-10 bags in mini-CF and an additional 20-25 in big CF with a deviation of 5-7 minutes when our loops would have ended without mounts.
3. More chests is also more crafting materials, since the mats you get from chests are only from the chests and not the RIBA itself.

RIBA gold per hour at around 39g-41g is only accurate if you patiently wait for things to sell on buy order, you craft all your resources and sometimes waiting to know when the right moment to sell is w/ a specific type of item.

The numbers are very achievable but it requires a little bit more dedication than just tagging events.

Every cloth you get from a Lost Bandit Chest gives value.Every event you complete gives value.Every tree or mithril node you harvest gives value.Every piece of karma you earn gives value (not included in my calculations.)Every Pile of Silky Sand + Geodes adds value. (9g /day)Every Ascended mat adds value (40s*5 = 2g, investment: 30~s, return: 1g 70s-15% for tax).Every rare you get adds valueEvery single nightmare key you get from META is an additional 6 champion bags and 1 rare guaranteed.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I'm not saying that it's a bad farm but just that their numbers appear to be incorrect. While SW may still be more profitable than PoF, the actual difference that they're stating appears to be misleading. I just don't want this to be used to persuade players from doing potential future PoF meta farms or even saying that a potential PoF meta farm could be worse when in fact it's the opposite.

Agreed.And that's another reason why I wish the OP had separated the valuation of the farm from opinions about what that means for the game and separated that from what (if anything) ANet should do in response. Measuring gold/hour is difficult enough, with all the estimates that we have to make. Comparing benchmarks is even trickier because all assumptions and all mat values and time measurements have to be consistent. Compound that with making suggestions that depend on those benchmarks ... not a good mix.

On our website, we attribute the gold difference in the loss of leather 13s vs 9s, basically - TL;DR: mounts allow extra time for digging because of two big reasons:

1. they're faster and have burst teleports / movement for quick chest opening
2. items can be used WHILST you are mounted, namely the shovel - this allowed us to farm an extra 8-10 bags in mini-CF and an additional 20-25 in big CF with a deviation of 5-7 minutes when our loops would have ended without mounts.
3. More chests is also more crafting materials, since the mats you get from chests are only from the chests and not the RIBA itself.

RIBA gold per hour at around 39g-41g is only accurate if you patiently wait for things to sell on buy order, you craft all your resources and sometimes waiting to know when the right moment to sell is w/ a specific type of item.

The numbers are very achievable but it requires a little bit more dedication than just tagging events.

Every cloth you get from a Lost Bandit Chest gives value.Every event you complete gives value.Every tree or mithril node you harvest gives value.Every piece of karma you earn gives value (not included in my calculations.)Every Pile of Silky Sand + Geodes adds value. (9g /day)Every Ascended mat adds value (40s*5 = 2g, investment: 30~s, return: 1g 70s-15% for tax).Every rare you get adds valueEvery single nightmare key you get from META is an additional 6 champion bags and 1 rare guaranteed.

1) Faster travel time between chests, not quicker chest opening2) Items could be used while running between chests without mounts so being able to use them on mounts doesn’t give them an advantage.3) That’s a given and I don’t disagree with you there.

After looking at the numbers, I’m heavily leaning towards your numbers being wrong and very inflated. I’m questioning them on here because what you’re claiming to achieve will be used to compare the worth of existing, and potential future, PoF meta farms.

Facts:

1) Reported 121 hours spent to earn 2,800G2) 2,500G earned from opening 15K Bags3) Before PoF, you claimed that the farm would net upwards to 25-35G an hour4) Post-PoF, you now claim it to be 39-41G per hour5) The only change being the supposed ability to do an extra chest farm for 25-35 more bags.6) You based each bag being worth 4 silver

Maths:

Assuming that you did one full SW cycle an hour, those 25-35 bags would have to have yielded 14-16 more gold which would but then being worth an average of 42-60 silver per bag. Considerably higher than the 4 silver per bag that you also claimed.

Of the 15,000 bags opened, at 4 silver each, that’s 600G. If you obtained those during the 121 hours, that comes to an hour rate of 4.96G.

You claim that the difference in rugged leather squares (13s vs 9s) to be compensated by the mounts. The total difference, accounting for the tax, between the two is 123G. At your claimed 4s per bag, you’d have to open an additional 3,095 bags.Assuming you always hit the upper limit of the 20-25 extra bags that you claim to get, this means that you would have to do 124 metas. This does put you at roughly break even if you complete a meta every hour. However, it’s not just rugged leather prices that fell but all prices.

I suggest that you re-do all of the math on your FB page to reflect current prices. I plan to do that after work today. If your numbers are going to be used to compare the worth of existing, and any potential PoF metas from the LS, they had better be accurate. I find it strange that you’re yielding more G/hr now, with very reduced material prices across the board, than people who did the solely the chest farm when prices were very much higher. Your numbers also appear to rival the fractal farm too. Very strange.

[Menadena.7482]

@Nemmar.8491 said:Btw this:

There are no additional awards for making the effort to physically pick up the bounty contract.

Is a good thing.

Can you imagine how painful it would be if you came across a bounty in the world and didn't get rewarded because you didn't go grab the bounty on the board? You go off to try and find it and it's already dead.

I am guessing the key word was 'additional'. Right now there is no real incentive to going to collect the bounty other than getting an icon on your minimap.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I'm not saying that it's a bad farm but just that their numbers appear to be incorrect. While SW may still be more profitable than PoF, the actual difference that they're stating appears to be misleading. I just don't want this to be used to persuade players from doing potential future PoF meta farms or even saying that a potential PoF meta farm could be worse when in fact it's the opposite.

Agreed.And that's another reason why I wish the OP had separated the valuation of the farm from opinions about what that means for the game and separated that from what (if anything) ANet should do in response. Measuring gold/hour is difficult enough, with all the estimates that we have to make. Comparing benchmarks is even trickier because all assumptions and all mat values and time measurements have to be consistent. Compound that with making suggestions that depend on those benchmarks ... not a good mix.

On our website, we attribute the gold difference in the loss of leather 13s vs 9s, basically - TL;DR: mounts allow extra time for digging because of two big reasons:

1. they're faster and have burst teleports / movement for quick chest opening
2. items can be used WHILST you are mounted, namely the shovel - this allowed us to farm an extra 8-10 bags in mini-CF and an additional 20-25 in big CF with a deviation of 5-7 minutes when our loops would have ended without mounts.
3. More chests is also more crafting materials, since the mats you get from chests are only from the chests and not the RIBA itself.

RIBA gold per hour at around 39g-41g is only accurate if you patiently wait for things to sell on buy order, you craft all your resources and sometimes waiting to know when the right moment to sell is w/ a specific type of item.

The numbers are very achievable but it requires a little bit more dedication than just tagging events.

Every cloth you get from a Lost Bandit Chest gives value.Every event you complete gives value.Every tree or mithril node you harvest gives value.Every piece of karma you earn gives value (not included in my calculations.)Every Pile of Silky Sand + Geodes adds value. (9g /day)Every Ascended mat adds value (40s*5 = 2g, investment: 30~s, return: 1g 70s-15% for tax).Every rare you get adds valueEvery single nightmare key you get from META is an additional 6 champion bags and 1 rare guaranteed.

1) Faster travel time between chests, not quicker chest opening2) Items could be used while running between chests without mounts so being able to use them on mounts doesn’t give them an advantage.3) That’s a given and I don’t disagree with you there.

After looking at the numbers, I’m heavily leaning towards your numbers being wrong and very inflated. I’m questioning them on here because what you’re claiming to achieve will be used to compare the worth of existing, and potential future, PoF meta farms.

Facts:

1) Reported 121 hours spent to earn 2,800G2) 2,500G earned from opening 15K Bags3) Before PoF, you claimed that the farm would net upwards to 25-35G an hour4) Post-PoF, you now claim it to be 39-41G per hour5) The only change being the supposed ability to do an extra chest farm for 25-35 more bags.6) You based each bag being worth 4 silver

Maths:

Assuming that you did one full SW cycle an hour, those 25-35 bags would have to have yielded 14-16 more gold which would but then being worth an average of 42-60 silver per bag. Considerably higher than the 4 silver per bag that you also claimed.

Of the 15,000 bags opened, at 4 silver each, that’s 600G. If you obtained those during the 121 hours, that comes to an hour rate of 4.96G.

You claim that the difference in rugged leather squares (13s vs 9s) to be compensated by the mounts. The total difference, accounting for the tax, between the two is 123G. At your claimed 4s per bag, you’d have to open an additional 3,095 bags.Assuming you always hit the upper limit of the 20-25 extra bags that you claim to get, this means that you would have to do 124 metas. This does put you at roughly break even if you complete a meta every hour.

However

, it’s not just rugged leather prices that fell but

all

prices.

I suggest that you re-do all of the math on your FB page to reflect current prices. I plan to do that after work today. If your numbers are going to be used to compare the worth of existing, and any potential PoF metas from the LS, they had better be accurate. I find it strange that you’re yielding more G/hr now, with very reduced material prices across the board, than people who did the solely the chest farm when prices were very much higher. Your numbers also appear to rival the fractal farm too. Very strange.

I said in my facebook post and here, that those calculations at the time did not include any form of crafting or refining.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I'm not saying that it's a bad farm but just that their numbers appear to be incorrect. While SW may still be more profitable than PoF, the actual difference that they're stating appears to be misleading. I just don't want this to be used to persuade players from doing potential future PoF meta farms or even saying that a potential PoF meta farm could be worse when in fact it's the opposite.

Agreed.And that's another reason why I wish the OP had separated the valuation of the farm from opinions about what that means for the game and separated that from what (if anything) ANet should do in response. Measuring gold/hour is difficult enough, with all the estimates that we have to make. Comparing benchmarks is even trickier because all assumptions and all mat values and time measurements have to be consistent. Compound that with making suggestions that depend on those benchmarks ... not a good mix.

On our website, we attribute the gold difference in the loss of leather 13s vs 9s, basically - TL;DR: mounts allow extra time for digging because of two big reasons:

1. they're faster and have burst teleports / movement for quick chest opening
2. items can be used WHILST you are mounted, namely the shovel - this allowed us to farm an extra 8-10 bags in mini-CF and an additional 20-25 in big CF with a deviation of 5-7 minutes when our loops would have ended without mounts.
3. More chests is also more crafting materials, since the mats you get from chests are only from the chests and not the RIBA itself.

RIBA gold per hour at around 39g-41g is only accurate if you patiently wait for things to sell on buy order, you craft all your resources and sometimes waiting to know when the right moment to sell is w/ a specific type of item.

The numbers are very achievable but it requires a little bit more dedication than just tagging events.

Every cloth you get from a Lost Bandit Chest gives value.Every event you complete gives value.Every tree or mithril node you harvest gives value.Every piece of karma you earn gives value (not included in my calculations.)Every Pile of Silky Sand + Geodes adds value. (9g /day)Every Ascended mat adds value (40s*5 = 2g, investment: 30~s, return: 1g 70s-15% for tax).Every rare you get adds valueEvery single nightmare key you get from META is an additional 6 champion bags and 1 rare guaranteed.

1) Faster travel time between chests, not quicker chest opening2) Items could be used while running between chests without mounts so being able to use them on mounts doesn’t give them an advantage.3) That’s a given and I don’t disagree with you there.

After looking at the numbers, I’m heavily leaning towards your numbers being wrong and very inflated. I’m questioning them on here because what you’re claiming to achieve will be used to compare the worth of existing, and potential future, PoF meta farms.

Facts:

1) Reported 121 hours spent to earn 2,800G2) 2,500G earned from opening 15K Bags3) Before PoF, you claimed that the farm would net upwards to 25-35G an hour4) Post-PoF, you now claim it to be 39-41G per hour5) The only change being the supposed ability to do an extra chest farm for 25-35 more bags.6) You based each bag being worth 4 silver

Maths:

Assuming that you did one full SW cycle an hour, those 25-35 bags would have to have yielded 14-16 more gold which would but then being worth an average of 42-60 silver per bag. Considerably higher than the 4 silver per bag that you also claimed.

Of the 15,000 bags opened, at 4 silver each, that’s 600G. If you obtained those during the 121 hours, that comes to an hour rate of 4.96G.

You claim that the difference in rugged leather squares (13s vs 9s) to be compensated by the mounts. The total difference, accounting for the tax, between the two is 123G. At your claimed 4s per bag, you’d have to open an additional 3,095 bags.Assuming you always hit the upper limit of the 20-25 extra bags that you claim to get, this means that you would have to do 124 metas. This does put you at roughly break even if you complete a meta every hour.

However

, it’s not just rugged leather prices that fell but

all

prices.

I suggest that you re-do all of the math on your FB page to reflect current prices. I plan to do that after work today. If your numbers are going to be used to compare the worth of existing, and any potential PoF metas from the LS, they had better be accurate. I find it strange that you’re yielding more G/hr now, with very reduced material prices across the board, than people who did the solely the chest farm when prices were very much higher. Your numbers also appear to rival the fractal farm too. Very strange.

I said in my facebook post and here, that those calculations at the time did not include any form of crafting or refining.

Whether or not refinement is accounted for doesn’t matter as the difference between selling the mats vs refining first is negligible. I only mentioned them because that’s what was listed on the table of yours and it’s also what you brought up several times on the reddit thread.

Crafting doesn’t matter since the only item you mentioned were the toxic focusing crystals which yield a marginal profit overall as you won’t be crafting many since the mats don’t drop on that map.

While crafting may not have been a part of the original inflated rate, it is in the new one that you’ve posted here and on reddit.

I also updated your costs below. There's a ~551G difference between what you have and what's listed on your FB page. This translates to a 4.55G/hr difference (551/121). Keep in mind that the advertised 2,800G your page claims was really 23.14G/hr (2800/121). So yeah... the numbers are inflated by quite a lot.

https://imgur.com/bEB8GLK

I hope that this prevents these inflated numbers from being used against current and any potential (from the LS) PoF meta farm. I'll also point out that the mats that were left blank in the chart on your FB page only total 7G in today's prices. I left that out on my chart to be consistent and comparable.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Crafting doesn’t matter since the only item you mentioned were the toxic focusing crystals which yield a marginal profit overall as you won’t be crafting many since the mats don’t drop on that map.Okay - there's no point further discussing this, your lack of knowledge is affecting your ability to convey a valid point - I'm not trying to be rude, but the materials drop there and I'm not going to continue this argument and accusation of purposefully inflating prices.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Crafting doesn’t matter since the only item you mentioned were the toxic focusing crystals which yield a marginal profit overall as you won’t be crafting many since the mats don’t drop on that map.Okay - there's no point further discussing this, your lack of knowledge is affecting your ability to convey a valid point - I'm not trying to be rude, but the materials drop there and I'm not going to continue this argument and accusation of purposefully inflating prices.

Toxic focusing crystals require pristine toxic spores. They do not drop on that map. They are only obtainable from node in Kessex and the fractal. Also the transmute item for the junk T7 (eg bloodstone).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toxic_Focusing_Crystal

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pristine_Toxic_Spore_Sample

I’m not accusing you of purposely inflating prices. I’m just saying that you forgot to account for the drop in prices across the board and your math appears to be off. The high end g/hr appears to be around 30.

[lynspottery.6529]

@Vavume.8065 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think a major benefit to all players with Treasure Chests would be to make it so that they ALWAYS spawn within the circle you're in, rather than spawning halfway across the map.

I like this idea, as someone that has around 160 treasure hunting kits with no plans to use them as they are currently, but even if they were faster to find the loot is so bad I'm still unsure if I would bother.

I have to agree with this. I've tried using my TCs but just as I found my first chest, a mob of elites spawned right on top of it and killed me before I had a chance to loot it. I tried it again the next day with no luck in finding the chest at all. However, after my first experience of trying to find the chest within the huge circle, spending about 10 minutes just to find the darned thing, then getting killed once found before looting, has soured me on them. They just aren't worth the effort considering I solo these things most of the time.

I've had this happen on other nodes as well and its frustrating when you solo that you have to contend with multiple elites in the same mob coming after you just because you want to harvest a tree or mine a metal node.

[Vavume.8065]

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Okay - there's no point further discussing this, your lack of knowledge is affecting your ability to convey a valid point

Seem's to me he is more knowledgeable than you, he has gone into great detail in breaking down your invalid claims.

[Xehanort.7936]

At least I know that spending time on PoF content is not worth my time.

To me the most fun and classic farm I had was cursed shore. Just killing stuff doing event trains with folks. Just awesome.

The most boring was Auric chests runs tied with SW. SW because mobs there are just plain annoying and removing loot from event mobs is just cheap. Auric while the event was ok, the chest/map spamm was just boring in the end.

The grind in this game is note worthy, because most of MMORPGs have items that will get replaced in about 3 months. Here you work for something that will be a part of your armory forever, even if is just some skin.

[FOX.3582]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Who is CG and why is their opinion more important?

This.

[Raizel.8175]

@"DakotaCoty.5721" said:Silverwastes was so perfectly designed purely by the circular design of the map and simply how easy it is to do events and gain rewards. I hope we see something like this for PoF or a future LW map.

No offense intended, but the map is utter garbage. The event- and reward-structures aren't really well designed. You get too much loot for just a tiny bit of effort. I hoped we'll never see this again, yet we basically got the same thing with Istan and Istan is even more mind-numbing (and -dumbing) than SW, since you can't even really fail the ("meta-") events there and only play "zerg everything down" anyway. The game needs more engaging content and not content which people can do brain- and/or semi-afk. In that regard, you're right, making PoF-meta-events more rewarding (I'm talking about actual "meta"-events like Maw and Ire) would be good, but please, for the love of god, no second SW.

PS: Although I hate SW, I'm actually grateful for your work. So keep that up. :)