The iterative process ruins this game potential

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Um... what? Cars do change over time and if you want new one, you need to buy new one. If you're ok with driving older car you paid for, you can still do it like you say. Similarly if you want to get new -expansion- features, you pay for the expansion to get the features. If you don't want to pay for it, you're free to keep drivin playing the older content you've previously paid for.

I'd say the difference here is that in order to drive your purchased car, you need to keep paying for gas. On the other hand, you don't need to keep paying to keep playing the game/expansion you've already purchased. Overally I don't see in what way the game is supposed to be bound to be a "continued investement" like you're triyng to claim it is.

Ever heard of the phrase "time is money"? An investment isn't necessarily of the monetary kind. Time is an investment as well. And no, your car doesn't change over time. Cars do, in general, yes. But the one you bought remains the same until the day you get rid of it. You could maybe choose to upgrade it over time, sure. But unlike cars, you can't get a newer model of GW2. GW2 is what it is and a new purchase of the game doesn't give you another game; it's just the same. That is not entirely the case with a MMO, though, especially not one like GW2. That does change over time, and consecutive purchases are needed to keep up to date with upgrades (i.e. expansions). And there are even many changes that do not require spending money but just change because the studio implements it in a new build, whether you want to or not. Nothing like that ever happens with a car, unless it's for legal reasons (safety concerns, etc.) Yes, a car needs fuel but that is often not provided by the same company so that is indeed a difference and not comparable to a MMO. So all in all, no. MMO's do not equate to either cars or shoes.

But enough of cars and shoes. Back to the topic at hand.

[Bladestrom.6425]

The LAST thing you want is an inflexible dev house with a long term inflexible 'consistent'  plan.  The only people that satisfies are the managers who have a propensity for spreadsheets and Gantt charts and wonderful slide decks that promise the earth but delivery a field.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

28 minutes ago, Freya.9075 said:

But living world did have some issues with lack of information and causing new players a surprise when they have to pay gems or gold to continue the story. Some players handle it well, and others don’t. This change will mend this looking forward. 

Or they could have just communicated it clearly upon purchase. "Content releases in between expansions are free if you log on during that time, but require a small fee otherwise." (something along those lines; I know there's a bit more detail to it, but everyone here plays the game so knows what I mean). Sounds like a lot more reasonable way of dealing with a lack of communication and information than changing the company's strategy for releasing new content. As in, this particular example had a simple solution but they chose the extreme one.

Still not saying the coming changes are a bad thing. But we've been here several times over the last decade with ANet. It will take years to be able to ascertain if this time it's different, or just more of the same. Right now, to me it's nothing to be either excited for or disappointed by. It just is and there's nothing we can do about it.

[Artyport.2084]

Keep the conversation going but I just wanted to say.. 

 

calling me entitled doesn’t hurt my feelings. I take it as a compliment. 
 

I am entitled to voice my opinion about a game I care about. 

I am entitled to complain when this company that has a great product on their hands keeps letting their efforts go to waste. 
 

my singular point is it’s time for this to stop constantly revamping how they do things. 
this need to be the last change for a while. 
I just want to see them consistently pump out new content with the systems they already created.

 

[Bladestrom.6425]

18 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

Or they could have just communicated it clearly upon purchase. "Content releases in between expansions are free if you log on during that time, but require a small fee otherwise." (something along those lines; I know there's a bit more detail to it, but everyone here plays the game so knows what I mean). Sounds like a lot more reasonable way of dealing with a lack of communication and information than changing the company's strategy for releasing new content. As in, this particular example had a simple solution but they chose the extreme one.

Still not saying the coming changes are a bad thing. But we've been here several times over the last decade with ANet. It will take years to be able to ascertain if this time it's different, or just more of the same. Right now, to me it's nothing to be either excited for or disappointed by. It just is and there's nothing we can do about it.

 

the announced it TONS of times, I was aware of it when I left the game a long time ago (ive only just caught up with seasons now) The problem ofc were people who missed the announcements, usually because they had taken a long holiday from this game, and a small minority who must have someone to blame, rather than the simple 'i missed the announcements, no ones fault'

[Bladestrom.6425]

17 minutes ago, Artyport.2084 said:

Keep the conversation going but I just wanted to say.. 

 

calling me entitled doesn’t hurt my feelings. I take it as a compliment. 
 

I am entitled to voice my opinion about a game I care about. 

I am entitled to complain when this company that has a great product on their hands keeps letting their efforts go to waste. 
 

my singular point is it’s time for this to stop constantly revamping how they do things. 
this need to be the last change for a while. 
I just want to see them consistently pump out new content with the systems they already created.

 

Did you read any of the posts above? iterating in Software is a good thing, change is a good thing.  god even looking at your own post history you ask for change, in fact all you do is ask for change lol.  This is your own posts:

'Lets make all the mounts have a ranger pet vesion of each. they already have some attack annimations and it think we could make this work. The reason.. I wanna use my gem store skins as pets. So if i'm using a fun raptor store skin it will also show on my raptor pet. I will buy everything. thank you'

' haven’t logged on in months!! It was getting on my last nerves!!! fix it pleaaaaaaase'

'The mech should just float in the sky until combat. the drop down into combat should be standard but really skins.. it needs variation'

the mechs.. omg the mechs.. they ugly!!!!!! there is too many of them.. my eyes are bleeding.. gw2 is already kinda an older game these ugly lightbulb visuals on top of the 1 b.. MILLION mechs! its too much. my eyes..

and then you say here:

'my singular point is it’s time for this to stop constantly revamping how they do things. 
this need to be the last change for a while. '

I mean what ? make your mind up.

Edited February 15, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

1 hour ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

the announced it TONS of times, I was aware of it when I left the game a long time ago (ive only just caught up with seasons now) The problem ofc were people who missed the announcements, usually because they had taken a long holiday from this game, and a small minority who must have someone to blame, rather than the simple 'i missed the announcements, no ones fault'

It shouldn't be an announcement. It should be mentioned with the purchase. I've never had to buy LW episodes because I logged on during all of them, but I understand that LW has to paid for separately is not something clearly stated with every purchase of the game or an expansion. And that is very much a shortcoming. This new release method will solve that, but it still needs to be a fixed addition to the description of purchases. This like saying "We released a folder 3 years ago that said this. Didn't you get that?" No. It should be part of the product description, because you're buying content but not getting all content. Since this is not common in MMO world you can't expect people to read through old announcements, just in case something's there that might pertain to the product they want to buy and influence their purchase.

[Bladestrom.6425]

8 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

It shouldn't be an announcement. It should be mentioned with the purchase. I've never had to buy LW episodes because I logged on during all of them, but I understand that LW has to paid for separately is not something clearly stated with every purchase of the game or an expansion. And that is very much a shortcoming. This new release method will solve that, but it still needs to be a fixed addition to the description of purchases. This like saying "We released a folder 3 years ago that said this. Didn't you get that?" No. It should be part of the product description, because you're buying content but not getting all content. Since this is not common in MMO world you can't expect people to read through old announcements, just in case something's there that might pertain to the product they want to buy and influence their purchase.

so a pre announcement?! And if they missed it when they read the blurb when they purchased (who reads the blurb right)?

 

Hindsight is 20/20, the game is free, they managed to find a solution which is kind of the point that iterative improvements is a good thing.  All told its not bad - I would rather that than the cynical goings on in other mmorpg i could mention.

Edited February 15, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

3 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

so a pre announcement?! And if they missed it when they read the blurb when they purchased (who reads the blurb right)?

 

Hindsight is 20/20, the game is free, they managed to find a solution which kind of the point of iterative improvements being a good thing.  All told its not bad - I would rather that than the cynical goings on in other mmorpg i could mention.

Not a pre-announcement. It should be in the actual product description. This is something that has been brought up on this Forum for years. The fact that there's still more content you need to pay for that is not included with the purchase of an expansion is not obvious upon purchase. Yes, you can buy it with gems, but how fast do you think new players gather the amount of gold needed to buy LW episodes on the gemstore? They pay to play a game, then have to play that game for weeks or months to be able to buy the rest of the content without spending more real life money on it.

Who reads the "blurb"? People who want to know what they're spending their money on, which I hope is the majority of people. If they don't, then it's on them. But if they do and the information is still not there, it's entirely on ANet.

[Bladestrom.6425]

1 minute ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

Not a pre-announcement. It should be in the actual product description. This is something that has been brought up on this Forum for years. The fact that there's still more content you need to pay for that is not included with the purchase of an expansion is not obvious upon purchase. Yes, you can buy it with gems, but how fast do you think new players gather the amount of gold needed to buy LW episodes on the gemstore? They pay to play a game, then have to play that game for weeks or months to be able to buy the rest of the content without spending more real life money on it.

Who reads the "blurb"? People who want to know what they're spending their money on, which I hope is the majority of people. If they don't, then it's on them. But if they do and the information is still not there, it's entirely on ANet.

 

i mean we are taking 10 years ago here lol.  This thread is about being proactive and adapting and changing.   Well they did realise they did not get it right with living world, and did put significant work to allowing people to catch up (i did myself).  that's what this thread is about. The alternative is somehow being 100% perfect all the time with every decision ever that will always be perfect decisions over time (waterfall development in action, the perfect gantt chart!) 

 

As consumers we want Anet to react, they reacted, its a good thing

[Fuchslein.8639]

2 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

Some people find change scary or don’t like having to adapt to them. But change isn’t necessarily a bad thing. When things do not work the way they intended, change is needed. 

Anet have been inconsistent, and when certain parts of the game didn’t work out as intended, they let it go and tried other things. That can be both annoying and intimidating if you really like a certain part of the game and you fear the same will happen there. But living world did have some issues with lack of information and causing new players a surprise when they have to pay gems or gold to continue the story. Some players handle it well, and others don’t. This change will mend this looking forward. 
 

I liked the blog post. I am excited for the future of this game. This is subjective ofc, and you’re free to feel however you feel about it, but don’t talk for others when you criticize their game. Instead of people in your opening post, you should have said “I” or “me”. Just saying. 

The Problem i See with this Statement ist, did it really Not Work? Did Dungeons Not Work? Did fractals Not Work?(i only believe that this is Not dead content when i actually See new ones) Did the living world Not Work? Did HOT and POF Not Work?

I mean, Story wise it didn't really matter how they present it, aß Long as it is a Story it didn't Matter how they call it and stuff. But as someone who enjoys 90% instanced group content, their inconsistency is frustrating. Because the little bit content we geht is reinvented so much And it gets worse and worse quality wise.

But aß people did write her, gw2 Tries to be as "casual" friendly as possibly and this means to make 90% of the content as numbing as possible with No quality whatsoever. And this is Just sad.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Fuchslein.8639

[Bladestrom.6425]

i can barely read that with all the double negatives tbh lol. Do you want them to react and try to improve things or not?

[Freya.9075]

4 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

The Problem i See with this Statement ist, did it really Not Work? Did Dungeons Not Work? Did fractals Not Work?(i only believe that this is Not dead content when i actually See new ones) Did the living world Not Work? Did HOT and POF Not Work?

I mean, Story wise it didn't really matter how they present it, aß Long as it is a Story it didn't Matter how they call it and stuff. But as someone who enjoys 90% instanced group content, their inconsistency is frustrating. Because the little bit content we geht is reinvented so much And it gets worse and worse quality wise.

But aß people did write her, gw2 Triest to be aß Casual friendly aß possibly and this means to make 90% of the content as numbing as possible with No quality whatsoever. And this is Just sad.

As I said, their inconsistency when it comes to content can be frustrating and I get it. You may find the content fine, and others may as well. There is no way for us players to know if said content was satisfying enough for anet. Only they know statistics and it is their decision wether or not the content is as they intended. How popular it is and if they will continue to use resources on it.  When it is not what they wanted, they will change the course and try to improve.
 

They do not make changes to make players disappointed or angry. They are trying to make the game better based on what the majority wants. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. We the players are their income. Why would they not want us to be happy and satisfied with their game? Only Anet knows what we the players truly enjoy playing as they have all the data. And they make decisions and changes based on those data and discussions amongst the team. 

[Bladestrom.6425]

this is what it boils down to:

 

- Software is never perfect. Its a fallacy to try and design the 'perfect' system.  

- you will never satisfy all the people all of the time

- something that is perceived as good today may not be perceived like that in the future,

 

And how do you deal with this?

 

- Have a good dev team that cares

- Be prepared to learn and adapt

- Be prepared to change things if they don't work

- Iterate as fast as you can aka react as fast as you can.

- Iterate on your development practices as well, iterate to make iteration faster!

- Deliver in small chunks, the smaller the fast, the faster the more you can react.

 

 

 

[Fuchslein.8639]

1 minute ago, Freya.9075 said:

As I said, their inconsistency when it comes to content can be frustrating and I get it. You may find the content fine, and others may as well. There is no way for us players to know if said content was satisfying enough for anet. Only they know statistics and it is their decision wether or not the content is as they intended. How popular it is and if they will continue to use resources on it.  When it is not what they wanted, they will change the course and try to improve.
 

They do not make changes to make players disappointed or angry. They are trying to make the game better based on what the majority wants. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. We the players are their income. Why would they not want us to be happy and satisfied with their game? Only Anet knows what we the players truly enjoy playing as they have all the data. And they make decisions and changes based on those data and discussions amongst the team. 

Can you really say this after EOD and IBS?

I admire youre positive and trustfull View. But i have lost that Long ago(with POF), and it Just get's worse. Yeah, probaly is gw2 really Not longer the Game for me.

It's Just so sad to me, that the Playerbase seems to want, in anet eyes, mediocore content. Because i don't Talk about Hardcore stuff. It's okay that raids didn't Work. I was from the beginning Not Sure If this content was the right choice for this Community. But i never felt that the gw2 Community was pleased with Just 1111 content and a Story that has No consistency at all.

[Freya.9075]

1 minute ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Can you really say this after EOD and IBS?

I admire youre positive and trustfull View. But i have lost that Long ago(with POF), and it Just get's worse. Yeah, probaly is gw2 really Not longer the Game for me.

It's Just so sad to me, that the Playerbase seems to want, in anet eyes, mediocore content. Because i don't Talk about Hardcore stuff. It's okay that raids didn't Work. I was from the beginning Not Sure If this content was the right choice for this Community. But i never felt that the gw2 Community was pleased with Just 1111 content and a Story that has No consistency at all.

It’s too bad you feel this way about the game. I do enjoy the content they give out. Eod to me was amazing. Seitung province is the best map visually for my taste in the whole game. I also enjoyed ibs. Grothmar and bjora still makes me nostalgic when I go there. Since I had so much fun when I first played there. Only thing is I feel it got finished way too abruptly. I wish the ending was as good as the start of the saga. But i really did enjoy the story and the content they released. I can understand not everyone feels this way though. Hopefully you’ll find something to bring back some joy eventually as well. 

[Bladestrom.6425]

15 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Can you really say this after EOD and IBS?

I admire youre positive and trustfull View. But i have lost that Long ago(with POF), and it Just get's worse. Yeah, probaly is gw2 really Not longer the Game for me.

It's Just so sad to me, that the Playerbase seems to want, in anet eyes, mediocore content. Because i don't Talk about Hardcore stuff. It's okay that raids didn't Work. I was from the beginning Not Sure If this content was the right choice for this Community. But i never felt that the gw2 Community was pleased with Just 1111 content and a Story that has No consistency at all.

GW 1 and 2  always has been and always will be great collecting games with build and pvp as its core interactive gameplay, and it hits that mark really really well. 

 

You should do what i did years ago, take a break for a year or 2 play ESO -  its open world content and housing is top notch, but its an abomination at end game.   Come back when that doesn't appeal and your char will still be waiting for you 🙂

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Also, cars and shoes lol...if you don't like a product or how it's company is putting it out, you don't buy it.  Same with games. 

There's a difference between one-purchase objects and services. That's why cars and shoes are not a good analogy.

6 hours ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Don't like it, then don't play it.  But companies are not obligated to tell the consumer their plans, just their investors and shareholders.

Sure they're not. But if the customers happen to not like those plans (or lack of those plans) it might be smart to take that in consideration, even if one is not obligated to do it.

[Bladestrom.6425]

Just now, Artyport.2084 said:

 

offf big burn here! 
 

not me asking for things in a game I spend tons of money on over the years? 
 

you a dev/cop 

 

cuz you love policing peoples interactions.

 

how about this you do things your way and I’m gonna keep doing things my way. 
 

you don’t pay my sub pimp. Get over yourself 

 

lol hit a nerve?  its you that is contradicting yourself and raised this thread not me.

[shrew.3059]

8 hours ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Exactly...I don't understand why the frustration over this as well.  Do some people vex and complain over every company they purchase a product from?  I just bought some new running shoes...I don't think the company needs to tell me what their next design is, and they have changed the styles over the years.  I buy them because I like the product.  Same with GW2, I will play so long as I'm having a good time.  

I understand if someone doesn't like change.  It can be confusing or frustrating.  But that doesn't mean others don't like it or that a company hasn't given it a lot of thought.  It just means that someone wants mac and cheese every night and then mom serves them meatloaf...either give it a try or go make your own.

 

MMO players can be like fans of a TV series or movie franchise: they spend so much time in the fandom that it becomes a part of their identity so they feel an ownership of the management and direction of the product and the company that produces it. And in many cases, these fans do not have the business or development experience to actually contribute any meaningful at that level, they just know what they want. And that’s fine so long as they remember how to emotionally disengage.

 

But easier said than done. It’s not just a product to them anymore, it’s a major part of their life. This is probably deeply unhealthy; enjoy a thing, until you don’t, then go outside and touch grass until someone builds something more to your liking. It’s more likely you’ll find a better thing for you out there than redirect the course of an entire company with a forum post.

[Fuchslein.8639]

15 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

MMO players can be like fans of a TV series or movie franchise: they spend so much time in the fandom that it becomes a part of their identity so they feel an ownership of the management and direction of the product and the company that produces it. And in many cases, these fans do not have the business or development experience to actually contribute any meaningful at that level, they just know what they want. And that’s fine so long as they remember how to emotionally disengage.

 

But easier said than done. It’s not just a product to them anymore, it’s a major part of their life. This is probably deeply unhealthy; enjoy a thing, until you don’t, then go outside and touch grass until someone builds something more to your liking. It’s more likely you’ll find a better thing for you out there than redirect the course of an entire company with a forum post.

It's Always funny how people come in a Forum where Players can Word their opinion about the Game and Talk about this game and demand absolute neutrality.

You Guys must have an interesting View of the world. I mean what If These running shoes don't hold Up to what the seller Said? You are probaly These people who buy stuff and Just trow it Out and buy something new, instead of contacting the company or writing a Reviews to Help Others.

At least this is what you are praying Here. Be quiet and move on.

The Same could be sayed about you. Why do you even Care about the stuff a Stranger Say's about gw2? Just be quiet and move on. 

People who don't Care whatsoever about what was Said or done would Just move on. So where are you Guys staying emotionally?

Edited February 15, 2023 by Fuchslein.8639

[Baseleader.4128]

11 hours ago, Artyport.2084 said:

expansion+ living world works. People were happy with that. But they couldn’t keep it on a schedule. Mostly due to the fact that they are constantly trying to reinvent the wheel.

Except it doesn't work, which they clearly stated in the blogpost. It caused issues with keeping a consisten schedule of releasing content without crunching/burning out the developers. It meant we didn't have constistent balance updates and many more issues.

 

The Living world system was also absolutely terrible for marketing. A new expac is something that gets people hyped again and gets talked about on MMO sites. Living World Season 4 episode 1 dropping simply doesn't, even within the community. Living World season 4 was incredibly high quality and yet it seemed no one every really got hyped for a release like they did with expansions.

 

It was also a poor business idea. You gave away content for free to the Veteran players who are already invested in your game and probobly would pay 10 bucks for a season, while putting an extra financial hurdle for a new player who's interested in the game, a financial hurdle that wasnt always clear either which can alienate a player feeling like they got lied too.

 

I do get a degree of scepsis and it's only in 2y perhaps we'll truly know if this new model was the best way forward, but changes definitely needed to be made.

 

I also disagree with the idea that Anet constantly swap styles without it being necessary. They dropped the original Living World idea because it was terrible, and did incredible damage to the success of the game in the first few years. The change to expac+lw was very much needed. That business model, flawed as it was, did ok for the game. But internal NCSOFT issues then diverted resources and they went forward with IBS. Once realising that again this was a bad idea, they corrected themselves to return to the expac system. And now they're making another necessary change to drop the whole idea of Living World and the way its monetized.

 

If I'd deliver any criticism is that they didn't change some of these things sooner, not that they're changing them now.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

21 minutes ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

Except it doesn't work, which they clearly stated in the blogpost. It caused issues with keeping a consisten schedule of releasing content without crunching/burning out the developers. It meant we didn't have constistent balance updates and many more issues.

 

The Living world system was also absolutely terrible for marketing. A new expac is something that gets people hyped again and gets talked about on MMO sites. Living World Season 4 episode 1 dropping simply doesn't, even within the community. Living World season 4 was incredibly high quality and yet it seemed no one every really got hyped for a release like they did with expansions.

 

It was also a poor business idea. You gave away content for free to the Veteran players who are already invested in your game and probobly would pay 10 bucks for a season, while putting an extra financial hurdle for a new player who's interested in the game, a financial hurdle that wasnt always clear either which can alienate a player feeling like they got lied too.

 

All extremely good points. EoD won awards for best expansion which is great exposure that presumably LW seasons were not eligible for. And it's extremely pertinent that the way LW produced income was the complete opposite of normal pricing theory, usually you try to gather income from your most enthusiastic players who can and will pay more rather than giving it to them for free (because they were playing at the time of release) and instead raising it as a paywall for new players.

The new scheme from Arena Net seems much better designed to produce reliable revenue which is essential when trying to build consistency and quality as people (including the OP) want.

[Baseleader.4128]

Before I am called a Anet shill for thinking this is a very good idea, there is 1 thing I am sceptical about and that they will need to deliver on.

 

While this new system will (I think) deliver a similar (maybe even more) amount of story/map content as the old, they do need to make sure that this new system still creates a similar amount of  'features' for the game that we expect from expacs.

 

Things like masteries, elite specs/other meaningful class changes, mounts, player housing, .....

 

Take elite specs for instance: 9 elite specs every year is obviously entirely unworkable, but can we still expect 9 elite specs in say the next 3y? Whether that's elite specs for 3 classe per yearly expansion, or 9 all at once but only happens once every 3y I don't know.

 

THis is my only big concern of this new system. I want to be able to look back in 3-4y (which is about an expansion+living world cycle like we have now) and see that they added the same amount of big ticket expansion-like features that such a cycle produces (or more honestly).

 

Example

Current model: expac with 9+ elite specs, story/maps, strikes, and say player housing and a new mount -> living world season with story/maps (3 year cycle)

New model: 

1. expac with story/maps and a new mount -> update with story/map + strike -> update with story maps + fractal -> update with story/maps+strike
2. expansion with story/maps and player housing -> same updates as above
3. expansion with 9 elite specs -> same updates as above

And this new model also taking 3y total.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Baseleader.4128
Formatting

[Serephen.3420]

7 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

 

ive been playing since the 80s and have been a developer since the 90s. The one thing that differentiates a great software house from a mediocre one is the ability to learn and adapt and iterate quickly.  Its actually a primary goal of any development team.  What you are calling out is an extremely good thing not a bad thing.

I'm not sure where people are getting the entitlement from ops post. I agree with you and the op. I love this game but it's been a bit chaotic. It finally seemed things were going to settle before it suddenly changes again. I just hope they really pull this off well and stick to it because I don't think the games reputation can withstand another blow like IBS, which is a bit of a worry for me...

I just want this to work out, I just lack confidence in reliability with them anymore.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Serephen.3420