Wvw proposal for roammers

[zonias.1083]

I do not like WvW, i play because i need to get legendaries, but that being said lately i have been playing more and more. I have gotten to level 394, playing alone because i have no friends in this game, and because commanders when i am connected it pretty rare. I come from extensive PvP gamemode, so going to WvW is not hard. But lately i been quite frustrated because roaming can be really annoying. I play shortbow revenant, and i am pretty decent, i have full legendary gear and run everything, as a consequence i will most likely kill anyone 1 vs 1 when i am flipping a camp or getting some guard. but i find really annoying how it is almost impossible to fight when multiple groups just pile on me and i find it really frustrating that even though i am better i die because of numbers. 

would it be a good idea, to make so that when you face multiple enemies your starts scare, like world bosses for example? that way i still have a fighting chance against overral worst enemies than me, but i would still lose against enemies that are the same level as me and coordinated. i think that would make many more players engage in content.
Because lets be real, nobody has any fun when 4 guys just demolish one single person alone. 

 

It would also make fighting outnumber fights more engaging for both sides, while also being balanced since the more people the more skill you have and you can still finish enemies if coordinates. 

 

Of course this would mean that they need to find a good balance for the numbers since too much would  become problematic and too little would not make difference. 

 

What do you think about this idea? i think it would make good roamers more popular playstile. 

[blp.3489]

22 minutes ago, zonias.1083 said:

would it be a good idea, to make so that when you face multiple enemies your starts scare, like world bosses for example?

Can you clarify this sentence? 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, blp.3489 said:

Can you clarify this sentence? 

He wants stats to scale, so that a 1 in the 1vX gets a stat boost.

[zonias.1083]

2 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

Can you clarify this sentence? 

Of course, what i meant is that similar to how event and world bosses hp scale with different numbers of players. 

That solo players stats would increase proportional when facing multiples enemy players in WvW

 

That way 1 vs 2, 1 vs 3 players would be a fair fight among people of similar skill levels. 

 

sorry it is my first post, i did not express well

[Fruit.7624]

Watch montage roaming videos. 1vX is possible, some builds are better at it than others. Skill and game/terrain knowledge goes a long way.  SB rene is okayish at 1vX if you run full cele , imvocation/retribution.  Your main issue is kiting and mobility which often wins a lot of 1vX fights. You need to abuse shiro teleport on neutral mobs like birds and boars/guards/sentries , but that's not always possible.  Getting killed 1v5 or more is part of WvW, nothing you can do bout it. If you enter WvW thinking you are going to get fair and balanced fights you have the wrong idea.

 

[zonias.1083]

1 minute ago, Deadhead.6947 said:

Watch montage roaming videos. 1vX is possible, some builds are better at it than others. Skill and game/terrain knowledge goes a long way.  SB rene is okayish at 1vX if you run full cele , imvocation/retribution.  Your main issue is kiting and mobility which often wins a lot of 1vX fights. You need to abuse shiro teleport on neutral mobs like birds and boars/guards/sentries , but that's not always possible.  Getting killed 1v5 or more is part of WvW, nothing you can do bout it. If you enter WvW thinking you are going to get fair and balanced fights you have the wrong idea.

 

There are montages, but those fights are against much worse players, anyone that is decent should be able to win X v 1. Even if i can port around there is not way i can turn a fight, just quite and hope that only a few people chase me, but it is impossible to fight multiples good enemies. 

 

I am not going to WvW expecting a fair fight, in fact if i could i do not mind doing a 1 vs 5 fight and to try turn. I am just frustrated that being a good player is not good enough to win a fight against numbers. Any 1 vs 1, i take, 1 vs 2 sometimes i take, but anything more and it is close to impossible, and the few times i won was because they are really really not good players and do not have proper gear. 

[joneirikb.7506]

Some problems with scaling stats based on outnumbering:

1: The balance of the stat scaling, which will depend entirely on the skill level between both sides. Which means there really isn't a gold standard to balance around.

2: This can carry good players quite a lot, my guild leader has ran solo into 20 pugs and nearly won. With only a few stat buffs he would have won that. Which strikes me as a bad idea.

3: A lot of the people that enjoy fights, enjoy it for the "general" sense of fairness. Where getting buffs outside of your control would be seen as a negative for the experience. Say 2 people are dueling in a spot away from the action, and 5 friends/guildies of player A comes to watch, suddenly Player B gets buffed, ruining the fairness of that duel.

4: And one of the things many players find "fun" in this game mode, if they're not very skilled themselves, is to be able to gang up and take down players they normally wouldn't stand a chance against in 1vs1. Which translates to taking the fun away from the vast majority of players, as well as their only real way of being able to get back at/counter a good roamer.

I can see where you come from, but I think it would cause more problems that it would solve, and I'm not sure if I could say it's really a problem in the first place.

[Fruit.7624]

44 minutes ago, zonias.1083 said:

There are montages, but those fights are against much worse players, anyone that is decent should be able to win X v 1. Even if i can port around there is not way i can turn a fight, just quite and hope that only a few people chase me, but it is impossible to fight multiples good enemies. 

 

I am not going to WvW expecting a fair fight, in fact if i could i do not mind doing a 1 vs 5 fight and to try turn. I am just frustrated that being a good player is not good enough to win a fight against numbers. Any 1 vs 1, i take, 1 vs 2 sometimes i take, but anything more and it is close to impossible, and the few times i won was because they are really really not good players and do not have proper gear. 

 

Part of WvW knowledge and skill is knowing which fights you can take, and which you can't.

You can absolutely 1vX people on your skill level, I've seen it, I've done it. It shouldn't be an expectation to 1vX, 90% of your attempts you will die, but those 10% where you actually pull it off and 1vX is that sweet sweet feeling that roamers play WvW for. The percentages vary depending on your skill/build and enemy skill/build/numbers. 

 

All of this being said, if you REALLY hate getting 5v1'ed just find people to roam with. And if you say that you can't or you won't find people to play with, then that's a YOU issue. WvW and gw2 is an MMO not a single player RPG.

If you feel like your server doesn't work for you ( population/timezone ) then transfer to another server.

[Bladestrom.6425]

1 hour ago, zonias.1083 said:

There are montages, but those fights are against much worse players, anyone that is decent should be able to win X v 1. Even if i can port around there is not way i can turn a fight, just quite and hope that only a few people chase me, but it is impossible to fight multiples good enemies. 

 

I am not going to WvW expecting a fair fight, in fact if i could i do not mind doing a 1 vs 5 fight and to try turn. I am just frustrated that being a good player is not good enough to win a fight against numbers. Any 1 vs 1, i take, 1 vs 2 sometimes i take, but anything more and it is close to impossible, and the few times i won was because they are really really not good players and do not have proper gear. 

 

Most roamers are good pvp players.  What you are really looking for is a buff to help you so you can 1v3+?  so you get this buff, you manage to isolate 1 of those 3 and destroy them, then move onto next,  that's hardly a fair fight.  The answer is to enter 1v3 only if you expect a low rate of victory assuming equally skilled players, or run or win! - thats what i do 🙂

Edited March 25, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, zonias.1083 said:

There are montages, but those fights are against much worse players, anyone that is decent should be able to win X v 1. Even if i can port around there is not way i can turn a fight, just quite and hope that only a few people chase me, but it is impossible to fight multiples good enemies. 

I am not going to WvW expecting a fair fight, in fact if i could i do not mind doing a 1 vs 5 fight and to try turn. I am just frustrated that being a good player is not good enough to win a fight against numbers. Any 1 vs 1, i take, 1 vs 2 sometimes i take, but anything more and it is close to impossible, and the few times i won was because they are really really not good players and do not have proper gear. 

Survive the map as much as each fight. You can call it 1 vs X but for most people it's called responding to map indicators and callouts. It's not a legit open world mode but there is a map dynamic going on. A lot of it ends up forming into lanes and different stretches of terrain might have a type of lane or fight that rolls out there more often and most servers every day pugs know how to get down on those lanes. Scaling those fights might be super difficult with how the maps breath and fights wander and morph.

When you're just getting from one corner to another backing up a group or squad you run into real quick, see what your terrain negotiating skills can do in and around all of those lanes. I still find spots once in awhile where I haven't tested out Death's Retreat's arch and I'm cataloging where my new Wells can put me now. Some servers pug cultures evolved to wander around and weave in and out of every scale pretty fluidly and you might have to try to catch a few bodies out of a squad to cut a slice of agro sometimes. 

Everything scares me and I play like everything is a one shot breakbar boss and I also mostly play on templates to cover people I run into in moving fights so not trying to flex. I'd read your body language if I scoped you out from a distance and might avoid you or prep the area to maybe walk you into something if I don't have to back anyone up there. I know that's dumb from your perspective but just being real.

Edited March 25, 2023 by kash.9213

[stormemperor.3745]

Yeah, stop roaming.

[Xenesis.6389]

Part of me thinks, always seeking balance, so yeah scaling balance might be cool to keep every fight interesting no matter the numbers involved. World of Warcraft Wintergrasp had scaling for players, and at times playing a healer in there felt like a god.

But then part of me thinks, some specs are so kitten broken already that they can take on multiple players beating on them, there's so many tools in their kit that it's hard to even lock down them, do I really want that to scale them when they're outnumbered and really make them unkillable? no not really. Broken celestial, broken boon spam, already does enough carrying in the game, we don't need even more carry stats.

Not to mention what happens when an organized boon ball running 30-40 runs into a pug zerg of 50-60, what a massacre that would be. Yet another advantage to those groups, no, thank, you.

You want even fights then only join in those fights, and don't get caught without people around you, or go play spvp.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[Bladestrom.6425]

The biggest fact for roaming pvp player success is player skill by far, gear and build is just an aspect of this.  The only way you will will a 1v3+ is if you have far greater skill so either avoid the fight or learn to be a master of your build and accept there will be plenty times where you wont win as others also have skills.  

Edited March 25, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[zonias.1083]

4 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

don't get caught without people around you, or go play spvp.

My problem is that i play as a complete solo roammer all time, but it is frustrated to be pushed of from less skilled player because they are more, it is not rewarding for the solo player to have to run away simple because they are more. a fight would be more engaging if it happened instead of just being tactical movements, or drawing back until they go somewhere else to then get camp and just avoid fighting all together. 

but as someone else mentioned, if a thief for example was scaled up, he would absolute demolish less skilled people. 

 

I want even fight, but for  example i was camping a camp, one guy came, i killed, then another guy came later, i killed then another guy came was running again, but of course mount if more fasts so they guys i killed before coming running, and i died without being to respond simply because they where more people. 

 

 

In PvP drawing the attention of multiple people is good because that means your team has a temporary advantage, but in WvW that is not the case. 

[zonias.1083]

44 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

The answer is to enter 1v3 only if you expect a low rate of victory assuming equally skilled players, or run or win!

But that just means less action overall and less player interaction, the big group of more people simple moves because they are more people ,while the roamers just avoid fighting, and take 1 vs 1. 

If roamers could take 1 vs X, would that not mean that WvW would be more engaging, and there would be more conflict? 

 

Lets say they did this buff, that would still mean i can only 1 vs 3 against players far worst than me, but if i still faced 3 equally skilled opponents as me, then me as the solo player should lose because they outnumber me. 

[zonias.1083]

1 hour ago, Deadhead.6947 said:

You can absolutely 1vX people on your skill level, I've seen it, I've done it. It shouldn't be an expectation to 1vX, 90% of your attempts you will die, but those 10% where you actually pull it off and 1vX

Yes i agree, most times it is impossible to 1 vs X. but on the times i succeed in facing multiple enemies, it was because my opponents lacked any type of coordination and they not play well.

It is like if i went into a pvp and i absolute one shot my opponents all the time because they lack the understanding of the game. 

 

And for the rest of the times i lose, i also feel frustrated because i can not say if it was because i played worst, or just because they where more. 

 

If the odds where more equal then that could be a learning opportunity for both sides. To practice surviving and better coordination, or to exploit enemy mistakes. 

[zonias.1083]

1 hour ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

: A lot of the people that enjoy fights, enjoy it for the "general" sense of fairness. Where getting buffs outside of your control would be seen as a negative for the experience. Say 2 people are dueling in a spot away from the action, and 5 friends/guildies of player A comes to watch, suddenly Player B gets buffed, ruining the fairness of that duel.

This could be solve by making the buff only apply if people are in combat. Meaning that spectators that are not fighting would not influence the numbers of the fight. 

[zonias.1083]

1 hour ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

4: And one of the things many players find "fun" in this game mode, if they're not very skilled themselves, is to be able to gang up and take down players they normally wouldn't stand a chance against in 1vs1. Which translates to taking the fun away from the vast majority of players, as well as their only real way of being able to get back at/counter a good roamer.

You are right this would mean that less skilled players would struggle much against good players. 

I think you are right in terms than most players in guild wars 2 are much more casual and do not strive to improve as much, that is why they could very well be frustrated when a better player comes and slaps them. 

 

I do not know if players enjoy killing a much better player just because they have more numbers and like to press every skill, that i do not know, but it does not seem like killing someone like that is fun. w

[Bladestrom.6425]

15 minutes ago, zonias.1083 said:

But that just means less action overall and less player interaction, the big group of more people simple moves because they are more people ,while the roamers just avoid fighting, and take 1 vs 1. 

If roamers could take 1 vs X, would that not mean that WvW would be more engaging, and there would be more conflict? 

 

Lets say they did this buff, that would still mean i can only 1 vs 3 against players far worst than me, but if i still faced 3 equally skilled opponents as me, then me as the solo player should lose because they outnumber me. 

and you think thats fair why?  if they are lesser skilled why the hell would you buff the better skilled person?  Think of it the other way, the 3 weaker players come across a skilled player ..who gets buffed to the point where they can 1v3 lol! That sound horrific from their pov and sure as hell going to scare off new/learning players.

 

you cant automagically buff someone based on just environment because its player skill at the time that matters and an engine cant measure that.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Xenesis.6389]

18 minutes ago, zonias.1083 said:

I want even fight

Doesn't sound like it.

Even fight would be 1v1, not 1vX.

You want scaling? that's done with player numbers in this game. Sounds like your opponents are taking advantage of it, and you're not. 🤷‍♂️

[zonias.1083]

1 minute ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

and you think thats fair why?  if they are lesser skilled why the hell would you buff the better skilled person?  Think of it the other way, the 3 weaker players come across a skilled player ..who gets buffed to the point where they can 1v3 lol!

if 3 people less skilled people kill one person because numbers it was not a fair fight, they simply won because they are more people. 

 

why do people with less skill have to win?, just because they are more people, it is not an incentive players to becoming better or getting proper gear. 

 

If 3 equally skilled players fight 1 equally skill player they will absolute win. 

[Bladestrom.6425]

4 minutes ago, zonias.1083 said:

if 3 people less skilled people kill one person because numbers it was not a fair fight, they simply won because they are more people. 

 

why do people with less skill have to win?, just because they are more people, it is not an incentive players to becoming better or getting proper gear. 

 

If 3 equally skilled players fight 1 equally skill player they will absolute win. 

 

if its 3v1 its not a fair fight as intended by the players who chose the fight.  Skilled players will take it on for the rush and it gives weaker players a chance against stronger players.  WVW is a warzone not a balanced spvp arena you cant buff you way out of that. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[andrewlcl.8176]

The idea of WvW is that you can run from a fight that you can't win. If we implement scaling, that's risky business that opens a can of worms. Are we going to create a defiant bar like they do with champs, such that multiple CCs are needed to actually disable?

 

Some builds can already 1vX successfully. And if you implement scaling, it will be abused by some people playing absolutely broken builds, who can then proceed to take SMC by themselves even when it's defended. And you can be sure there's gonna be a lot of tears over that.

[zonias.1083]

1 minute ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

If we implement scaling, that's risky business that opens a can of worms.

you are totally right that it would definitely change many things in world vs world.

I still fully believe that among equally skilled players no player would be able to solo multiple adversaries at the same time ever. 

 

but you are right, that it would lead to frustration where top players could dominate bigger groups. 

[zonias.1083]

4 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

Are we going to create a defiant bar like they do with champs, such that multiple CCs are needed to actually disable?

I was just thinking a buff in health and maybe a bit of dmg and resistances. 

 

Because the change that you propose would be catastrophic as it would totally change the match ups. i was just thinking of giving the solo player more stats so that he can punish if enemies misplay, like if they not dodge, or if they waste all their skills they can lose.