Celestial Gear needs to go, these builds are unfun and boring to fight against as well as to play.

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

On the contrary of OP's opinion, I tend to think that Celestial builds are more fun than non-celestial ones. This is mainly due to the fact that for a celestial build to run well, you have to broaden your understanding of the game and the mindset you have.

No, spamming skills and getting carried by boons is pretty common for how the game plays.

[Pooh.6897]

12 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

No, spamming skills and getting carried by boons is pretty common for how the game plays.

This is not exclusive to celestial. If you want to spam skills and get carried by boons, you’re better off with diviner’s. The point being that if your only focus is damage and boons, there are other gearstats that will serve you much better than celestial

Edited May 12, 2023 by Darth Pooh.5638

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

This is not exclusive to celestial. If you want to spam skills and get carried by boons, you’re better off with diviner’s. The point being that if your only focus is damage and boons, there are other gearstats that will serve you much better than celestial

But on diviner you will get destroyed if you just spam skills; you don't have a cushion of vitality, healing and toughness, plus w/e condi vomit (chill and weakness first and foremost) your cele build has going.

So it actually is exclusive to cele. Maybe power vindi and bladesworn too, since there you can spam too for sustain.

Cele cata and hammer scrapper are the current examples of using cele over diviner, even if the dmg is power based (cata has condi too but its easy to  cleanse). By your logic they'd be using diviner; they are not.

The sustain you get from the cele stats + boon vomit lets you be aggressive way more than you would be able to on a marauder/diviner/zerker build and so you get to output more dmg (same as bringing a support in your party, be it wvw small scale roaming or pve; only, you are the support).

Edited May 12, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Pooh.6897]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

But on diviner you will get destroyed if you just spam skills; you don't have a cushion of vitality, healing and toughness, plus w/e condi vomit (chill and weakness first and foremost) your cele build has going.

So it actually is exclusive to cele. Maybe power vindi and bladesworn too, since there you can spam too for sustain.

I’d like to see some numbers on how strong that cushion is in practicality. A quick test at gw2skills.net shows that full cele gives around 6k extra health and 600 toughness. I’m not quite sure what this translates to but based on light research my guess it translates to around -20% damage reduction. If i had to guess I’d say cele allows to tank around 2-3 extra hits, which doesnt sound incredibly impressive. As i said before, i think healing power is pretty negligible because of how it scales.

I simply don’t think the defensive stats make as much of a difference as you claim. It’s nice to have but it’s not going to make you immortal. Keep in mind that i mainly use cele in combination with harbinger. It could be that it is a lot stronger on other classes but i wouldn’t know. There are more stats that combine defensive stats with offensive stats, like apothecary, so again it’s not exclusive to celestial.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Darth Pooh.5638

[Zyreva.1078]

33 minutes ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

 I’m not quite sure what this translates to but based on light research my guess it translates to around -20% damage reduction. If i had to guess I’d say cele allows to tank around 2-3 extra hits, which doesnt sound incredibly impressive.

As i said before, i think healing power is pretty negligible because of how it scales.

"I've got no clue how the game works but still know better what's balanced and what not".

Cele grants about 30% dmg reduction compared to having no toughness gear and significant amounts of extra hp - that allows for a lot more tanking than just 2-3 extra hits. And the healing power scaling varies but most decent cele builds get like up to 30% more healing out of it. The difference in survivability between something like diviners and cele is massive. And then cele also gets to deal more dmg. Very balanced, yep.

33 minutes ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

Keep in mind that i mainly use cele in combination with harbinger. It could be that it is a lot stronger on other classes but i wouldn’t know.

Cele is insane on harb. But ofc it doesn't play the game for you, so if you still struggle, that might be on you.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Hotride.2187]

40 minutes ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

I simply don’t think the defensive stats make as much of a difference as you claim. It’s nice to have but it’s not going to make you immortal. Keep in mind that i mainly use cele in combination with harbinger. It could be that it is a lot stronger on other classes but i wouldn’t know. There are more stats that combine defensive stats with offensive stats, like apothecary, so again it’s not exclusive to celestial.

imagine thinking its not already broken on harb; why cele needs to go 101

do try some other stat combinations on your harb, see how well that goes in comparison

[The Raven.1320]

I hate how I feel like I have to run Defense SpB just to have a fighting chance roaming these days. Even with all of the cleanses packed into it, I still have to put in 10x the amount of effort to kill a cele harb than what they have to do to me. 

[Pooh.6897]

6 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

"I've got no clue how the game works but still know better what's balanced and what not".

Cele grants about 30% dmg reduction compared to having no toughness gear and significant amounts of extra hp - that allows for a lot more tanking than just 2-3 extra hits. And the healing power scaling varies but most decent cele builds get like up to 30% more healing out of it. The difference in survivability between something like diviners and cele is massive. And then cele also gets to deal more dmg. Very balanced, yep.

Cele is insane on harb. But ofc it doesn't play the game for you, so if you still struggle, that might be on you.

No reason to get rude about it my man. I made clear where I was coming from and what my thoughts were. You easily could've left the middle part but instead you just had to belittle me.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Darth Pooh.5638

[Pooh.6897]

5 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

imagine thinking its not already broken on harb; why cele needs to go 101

do try some other stat combinations on your harb, see how well that goes in comparison

I tried Apothecary with torment runes and that one goes very well too.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Again, lets stop the witch hunt and again focus on details. If you have found skills that over performing bring it up in the class forums. Stop the general Cele makes people kill all build arguments, it doesn't, it works with hybrid build styles they have been adding. If you have issues with Cele Elites, again, that's an E-spec issue and not a gear set bring it up in the profession forums. History repeats itself again as we move thru all the various 'metas'. 

[Zyreva.1078]

Yea, lets just nerf all classes into the ground because of one overperforming stat combination.

[Hotride.2187]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Again, lets stop the witch hunt and again focus on details. If you have found skills that over performing bring it up in the class forums. Stop the general Cele makes people kill all build arguments, it doesn't, it works with hybrid build styles they have been adding.

We have found the cause, its cele.

I dont care if its a hybrid build, no build so tanky should do so much dmg. Plain and simple. While such builds exist (and they are cele builds right now) I'll play conquest instead.

[Burial.1958]

7 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Again, lets stop the witch hunt and again focus on details. If you have found skills that over performing bring it up in the class forums. Stop the general Cele makes people kill all build arguments, it doesn't, it works with hybrid build styles they have been adding. If you have issues with Cele Elites, again, that's an E-spec issue and not a gear set bring it up in the profession forums. History repeats itself again as we move thru all the various 'metas'. 

 

Cele is a problem and it is also a problem when you nerf a class because of a stupid Stat Set in the game (this can hurt other builds). 

Cele is overtuned and that is why now every 3the player use it in WvW Roaming. It is the jack for all things on several classes and carry alot.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Burial.1958

[TheGrimm.5624]

Yup as we nerf Soldier, Zerker, Viper, Trailblazer, Minstrel and all the others that have been called to nerf over the decade until the skills that were the issues were addressed. History and repeating and so fourth and fourth.

[Hotride.2187]

20 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Yup as we nerf Soldier, Zerker, Viper, Trailblazer, Minstrel and all the others that have been called to nerf over the decade until the skills that were the issues were addressed. History and repeating and so fourth and fourth.

So, if every profession has a meta cele solo roamer build (in some cases, two), and your average cele build wins against your average non-cele build with near certainty, which skill exactly do you want nerfed to address the situation?

From my POV can definitely go and nerf the boon and condi vomit, no problem. Will be a lot of work, of course.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[TheGrimm.5624]

16 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

So, if every profession has a meta cele solo roamer build (in some cases, two), and your average cele build wins against your average non-cele build with near certainty, which skill exactly do you want nerfed to address the situation?

From my POV can definitely go and nerf the boon and condi vomit, no problem. Will be a lot of work, of course.

See the infamous Feb Nerf Bat patch that was created from endless complaint threads versus people addressing skills. Which is funny since after it this thread was already predicted in its feedback. So why don't we re-add damage to CCs, re-add damage to poorly addressed skills, re-up underperforming traits and address boons versus boon removal. Didn't agree with any of the other requests to remove an armor set either, not going to now.

[Gorani.7205]

Looking back a few years: Celestial stats started to appear with Silverwastes / Dry Top LS steps, so before all the Expacs with their new Elite professions appeard. Back then it did not include all the stats we have now (boon duration, condi duration), but the defensive stats where there already. Cele was my go to stat set in PvE and WvW for quite a while, but in WvW I had to replace more and more parts with better Power/Strike damage stats, because the damage I did put out was not enough to keep the pressure on enemies. The tankier enemies did not start wearing more Cele stats themselves, they were new professions added to the game that had much more things added to their traits and skills. Getting multiple "free boons" by activating one or two skills and having to blast every fire field you create are the difference between now and then - and that's a bigger problem than Cele stats.

[Burial.1958]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Yup as we nerf Soldier, Zerker, Viper, Trailblazer, Minstrel and all the others that have been called to nerf over the decade until the skills that were the issues were addressed. History and repeating and so fourth and fourth.

 The thing is some of them have tradeofs. As Zerker you do not have that much sustain. Minstrel you are tanky as heck but you don't do really dmg. The condi thematic is a problem topic since rls  (i still do not understand why u can burst with condis when it is meant to be a DoT). Also why you only need 2 stat for it but for power 3 are needed is also weird.

 

Cele is problematic with the boon spam and uptime. Because with them u can hit like a truck but still have the sustain which the stat gives you (beside that cele gives overall more stat than any other gear).  Cele was buffed in the past with no real reason and ofc cmc kittened it up even more when he designed e-specs which benefit alot of from that set.

 

There is a point why Anet deleted it from Spvp because it goes against the rock/scissor/paper mantra.

 

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Yup as we nerf Soldier, Zerker, Viper, Trailblazer, Minstrel and all the others that have been called to nerf over the decade until the skills that were the issues were addressed. History and repeating and so fourth and fourth.

 Why should they rework skill/classes/espec when there is simply 1 Set with absurd overpowered stats? Makes no sense.

Celestial Soulbeast > Meta

Celestial Scrapper > Meta

Celestial Daggers Catalyst > Meta

Celestial Harbinger >Meta

Celestial Willbender > Meta

Celestial Renegade > Meta

Celestial Mechanist > Great

Celestial Virtuoso > Great

Celestial Fire Weaver  > Great

Celestial Tempest  > Great

Celestial Berserker  > Great

Celestial Herald  > Great

Celestial Firebrand  > Great

 

That is a kittenload of Cele Builds atm but sure the set is not a problem. They should simply start to delete the boon uptime and then balance the stats. I do not have anything against hybrids but atm it is to strong.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Burial.1958

[blp.3489]

This question isn't going to be answered though back and forth in the forums. What we really need here is a tournament with the people who say cele is OP match fighting the people who say its not.  Recruiting a champion that doesn't hang on on the forums to play on behalf of your side is completely acceptable. 

So, who will step up to the plate with a supposedly OP cele build and take on all comers?  Who will step up with a non-cele build and take on all comers using cele builds?

Maybe even have someone with a cele build that they claim can stalemate anyone in another cele build versus all comers with cele builds.

[Hotride.2187]

11 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

So, who will step up to the plate with a supposedly OP cele build and take on all comers?  Who will step up with a non-cele build and take on all comers using cele builds?

Maybe even have someone with a cele build that they claim can stalemate anyone in another cele build versus all comers with cele builds.

Lol, I have 100s of hours on duel spot, just hang out there, duel and watch.

[kiwituatara.6053]

Cele gear doesn't need to go, but it is overtuned. I think revert the conc and expert stats on cele gear and itll be a bit more balanced. If you want conc/expert stats, pick up some runes or mix and match gears.

[Burnfall.9573]

"People are either gonna love it or hate it so heres a video of a cele willbender doing cele willbender things in WvW. Not the cleanest of fights some of them but it doesnt need to be perfect with cele gear. Honestly i cant wait to see some sort of restriction put on Cele gear its kinda a menace and will probably continue to be on for the next 10 years but hey this is what we got just now so might as well use it from time to time."

 

[Hotride.2187]

7 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

Woah this person is clicking skills.

[Burnfall.9573]

2 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Woah this person is clicking skills.

 

Gw2 Chief is a talented and skillful player...yes

[The Boz.2038]

On 5/12/2023 at 3:56 PM, Zyreva.1078 said:

And then cele also gets to deal more dmg.

...compared to what? Soldier?