Pick-Up-Group-Only Raiding On NA Isn't Dead. I Full Cleared Every Strike and Raid Encounter But 1 In Masterwork Gear On An Off-Meta Build This Week To Prove It.

[mandala.8507]

2 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Then don’t post in a public forum if you don’t like to hear different opinions and don’t want non Americans to comment.

It's more that I find it odd people are commenting on the realities of a part of the scene they don't really participate in...

Definitely not that I don't want to hear differences of opinion or am...scared of non-Americans??? You lost me with that one. 😅

[xellink.7568]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:24 PM, Ombras.2853 said:

Not gonna lie. If someone had joined my raids in green gears without them being a “challenge run” or something, I’d kick them.

You should respect the time of the players you are running with. You absolutely don’t have to be perfect, that’s not elitism or whatever. Just don’t troll. It’s not fun.

 

People are slightly toxic.

 

That's what I got after a single run in KC. I brought a condi DPS (from my usual power) because my condi DPS usually benches much higher than my power DPS.

 

Now the condi didn't do so well and I said I'd switch to power DPS. Then people said I was trolling. But look at the DPS charts for KC. 2nd place is condi virtuoso. 5th in place was a condi virtuoso. People need to expand their horizons a little and explore a little.

 

The green gear player didn't do so bad after all. 

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

...But that's not the discussion this thread was intended to touch upon. My focus was to showcase that you can raid solely using the NA lfg, that you don't have to be the best raider in the world to find groups on it, and to hopefully encourage people who are afraid of the very dynamic rearing its ugly head here to just take the plunge and try their best with pug raiding anyway — because there are plenty of welcoming veterans on NA who'd be glad to see new players trying their best regardless of how valuable of a player they are.

And that's a good point to make.
It's a bit sad that instead of understanding the goal of the thread, the focus shifted into something along the lines of "well, my static wouldn't want to play with you!" -I mean... ok? Then don't -just make sure when you fill up your static in lfg, you have a dps requiriment included and problem solved?

[enigmatic.3576]

9 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And that's a good point to make.
It's a bit sad that instead of understanding the goal of the thread, the focus shifted into something along the lines of "well, my static wouldn't want to play with you!" -I mean... ok? Then don't -just make sure when you fill up your static in lfg, you have a dps requiriment included and problem solved?

They could have left out the entire masterwork statement and then would have received less drama for their thread.  It would have been great had they not did it in masterwork in the first place but it's a little too late for that.

Edited May 1, 2023 by enigmatic.3576

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

They could have left out the entire masterwork statement and then would have received less drama for their thread.

The reason for that seems obvious to me and I'm pretty sure I mentioned that multiple times in this thread, but here it is again:

On 4/30/2023 at 5:44 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

As I initially said, I don't see this thread as OP somehow recommending new players to play his build and use low gear, it's simply imitating players with lower performance participating in pug groups.

 

Doubt newer players somehow worry their dps will be too high to play in pugs. In fact -what I also already mentioned in this thread to another user- we know some people on this forum spread false information about high performance (and kp) being required to participate in those groups. This thread simply dispells that misinformation. Somehow it seems it wouldn't make nearly the same point if OP slapped 90%+ of the benchmarks.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[enigmatic.3576]

4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The reason for that seems obvious to me and I'm pretty sure I mentioned that multiple times in this thread, but here it is again:

 

Doubt newer players somehow worry their dps will be too high to play in pugs. In fact -what I also already mentioned in this thread to another user- we know some people on this forum spread false information about high performance (and kp) being required to participate in those groups. This thread simply dispells that misinformation. Somehow it seems it wouldn't make nearly the same point if OP slapped 90%+ of the benchmarks.

So you're telling me that there would be no difference between now and if they had not said that they used masterwork gear?  

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

22 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

You're confused between build and player skill, these are two seperate elements in this game.

Likewise, if those players couldn't get their mechanics right, letting them playing their own build would not solve their mechanic or CC issue, instead, it'll only make things worse.

The almost pure damage meta builds are quite imbalanced.  I don't mean in the sense of game balance, but in the sense of the overall efficiency and output of skills and abilities.  It's hard to explain, but for an example I'll give power sword weaver. 

Back when sword weaver was doing 37k DPS, the utility skill Arcane Blast added a total of around 700 DPS to that total.  It was O.K. for an upfront burst of single target damage, but long term Arcane Blast contributes very little to damage output while requiring more furious button mashing to pull off.  As a consequence of this, I rarely ever use it.  If I was on MO, Gorseval, Samurog, or one of the other more golem like bosses, I'd keep it.  But, against other things, I preferred to use Arcane Shield.  Having a stun break, as well as the ability to block 3 incoming attacks with no cast time is a life saver.  There were a couple of other good options, too, such as Lightning Flash for mobility, Cleansing Fire against condition heavy bosses, Glyph of Renewal for death-prone teammates, and so on.

If you compare the meta build of 37k DPS with no defenses vs. 36.3k DPS with a stun break + 3 blocked attacks, the latter's safety net is going to save a player far more often than Arcane Blast's slightly lower DPS is going to kill one.  So, unless a player is in circumstances where the need to stunbreak or block attacks will never realistically arise, Arcane Shield is the better quality pick.  It will allow a less skilled player to beat content they otherwise wouldn't have using the meta build.  I used Weaver as an example, but these kinds of little trades can be made for each profession. 

Another example is when I would either Pylon Kite or Qadim Kite on Deadeye.  I would do this in Marauder gear, because I found that wearing full Berserkers would lead to my death when another player would make a mistake.  I don't have full legendary weapons, so this would reduce my DPS by around 8% or so, but again: I cannot think of a single run where that DPS reduction lead to failure, but can think of many where my obscure gear choice lead to success from what would've otherwise been a failed run.  

This is a lot of words to say that yes, off-meta builds carry bad players.  As long as the build isn't completely incompetent, anyway.  

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The almost pure damage meta builds are quite imbalanced.  I don't mean in the sense of game balance, but in the sense of the overall efficiency and output of skills and abilities.  It's hard to explain, but for an example I'll give power sword weaver. 

Back when sword weaver was doing 37k DPS, the utility skill Arcane Blast added a total of around 700 DPS to that total.  It was O.K. for an upfront burst of single target damage, but long term Arcane Blast contributes very little to damage output while requiring more furious button mashing to pull off.  As a consequence of this, I rarely ever use it.  If I was on MO, Gorseval, Samurog, or one of the other more golem like bosses, I'd keep it.  But, against other things, I preferred to use Arcane Shield.  Having a stun break, as well as the ability to block 3 incoming attacks with no cast time is a life saver.  There were a couple of other good options, too, such as Lightning Flash for mobility, Cleansing Fire against condition heavy bosses, Glyph of Renewal for death-prone teammates, and so on.

If you compare the meta build of 37k DPS with no defenses vs. 36.3k DPS with a stun break + 3 blocked attacks, the latter's safety net is going to save a player far more often than Arcane Blast's slightly lower DPS is going to kill one.  So, unless a player is in circumstances where the need to stunbreak or block attacks will never realistically arise, Arcane Shield is the better quality pick.  It will allow a less skilled player to beat content they otherwise wouldn't have using the meta build.  I used Weaver as an example, but these kinds of little trades can be made for each profession. 

Another example is when I would either Pylon Kite or Qadim Kite on Deadeye.  I would do this in Marauder gear, because I found that wearing full Berserkers would lead to my death when another player would make a mistake.  I don't have full legendary weapons, so this would reduce my DPS by around 8% or so, but again: I cannot think of a single run where that DPS reduction lead to failure, but can think of many where my obscure gear choice lead to success from what would've otherwise been a failed run.  

This is a lot of words to say that yes, off-meta builds carry bad players.  As long as the build isn't completely incompetent, anyway.  

Replacing 1 or 2 skills or a trait is not "going off meta". It's adapting a meta build slightly.

No one is arguing that players shouldn't adapt a build to the encounter or their liking. No one! That's just a convenient misconception introduced for some to argue over.

The general advice to run "meta" builds is not to be taken literally as: you run this one build only this one way. Rather it's advice to go in a certain direction with specific synergies in place and those extend beyond the lowest value skills to specific core traits, specializations and weapons to be used together with specific stats (to some extent).

Advice to have players use LI builds falls in the same category and one could even make the argument that advising more players to use LI versions of meta builds is the best initial advice to give. Those builds too are not "off meta" but rather a specific version of the meta build (and hardstuck.gg even has these build variations under the same build tab).

That's why overall any player is advised to use functioning and well designed builds over their own custom builds any day of the week because custom builds almost always are pretty bad for the vast majority, especially new or inexperienced players, whom this advice is most often targeted at.

The abovementioned is also present in nearly any guilds or build explanations (be it on metabattle, hardstuck.gg or w/e). Players which adapt a meta build are still running a meta build and are not somehow "off meta".

Edited May 2, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Obtena.7952]

Let's be clear here: no one 'owns' the definition for what a meta build actually is because it's a player-based assessment. That lack of a standard is exactly part of the reason it's nonsensical for people to insist meta builds are used in instanced team content. It's been my experience that people that insist on meta or perpetuate these discussion have had very specific ideas for the boundaries they put around what they think is meta. I'm pretty sure if I took a meta build and swapped out a bunch of Soldiers gear in it ... that would not pass for some of them. 

Again, the proper approach to dealing with people that don't meet your requirements for gameplay is to make teams according to how you want to play. It's NOT about imposing ideas about how the game should  be played on unwilling or unsuspecting players.

The  thread was bound to bring out the worst in some of the more strict meta people because it's direct evidence that the idea you should play meta builds (or ANY specific build for that matter) is false and that doesn't play into their attempts to convert people so they don't have to filter non-meta players in PUGs. The build being used is a choice any player gets to make for themselves and the range of builds of players can be successful with is much larger than the pool of builds that people have labeled meta. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

10 hours ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

So you're telling me that there would be no difference between now and if they had not said that they used masterwork gear?  

No, that's not what I said, how exactly did you come up with that conclusion, which is... the opposite of what you've quoted?

[enigmatic.3576]

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, that's not what I said, how exactly did you come up with that conclusion, which is... the opposite of what you've quoted?

Then why counter what I had said?  If not that, why respond to it with something that isn't relevant?

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

Then why counter what I had said?  If not that, why respond to it with something that isn't relevant?

I said it wouldn't make the same point it does now. You responded with "so it wouldn't make difference". If it wouldn't make the same point it does now then it means it would make difference. I'm not sure what this is about.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Sobx.1758
changed wording :D

[enigmatic.3576]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I said it wouldn't make the same point it does now. You responded with "so it wouldn't make difference". If it wouldn't make the same point it does now then it means it would make difference. I don't know what you're on about.

I had made a statement that a lot of the drama in this thread would likely not exist had the OP not brought up that they used masterwork.  You responded to that post related, but not relevant, to what I had said.  This came off as a counter to what I had said which was why I took it as you inferring it wouldn't make a difference. 

 

If it wasn't a counter then you're responding to my post for no reason as what you said wasn't relevant to it.  The OP bringing up the masterwork bit brought in people to criticize them for it; people who may not have even bothered to post in this thread otherwise.  A lot of the current discussion spun off from that so it's anyone's guess how much of it would be present in the thread if masterwork gear wasn't mentioned.  What is certain is that those who only took issue with the masterwork gear, and nothing else, would not have posted complaints and this would be less drama.  So what I said is still correct.

[Sobx.1758]

24 minutes ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

I had made a statement that a lot of the drama in this thread would likely not exist had the OP not brought up that they used masterwork.  You responded to that post related, but not relevant, to what I had said.  This came off as a counter to what I had said which was why I took it as you inferring it wouldn't make a difference. 

 

If it wasn't a counter then you're responding to my post for no reason as what you said wasn't relevant to it.  The OP bringing up the masterwork bit brought in people to criticize them for it; people who may not have even bothered to post in this thread otherwise.  A lot of the current discussion spun off from that so it's anyone's guess how much of it would be present in the thread if masterwork gear wasn't mentioned.  What is certain is that those who only took issue with the masterwork gear, and nothing else, would not have posted complaints and this would be less drama.  So what I said is still correct.

Ok, it seems that my misunderstanding here came from me thinking you were talking about op not needing to play with that gear. Meanwhile you just mean he didn't need to mention it here.
Well... might be true! Guess he wanted to be transparent here, I don't know.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[maxwelgm.4315]

Back on the original post, yes it is possible to find groups using the in-game LFG and you can accumulate hundreds of LI solely by pugging using LFG. But comparisons are important in this case because even people who have no fixed schedule to raid with a static are still better off using discord groups like Raid Academy or signing up as backup to several statics across the entire week. The point that you can make the extra effort to do it every single week is not encouraging when the alternatives involving leaving the game window and finding other people externally are pretty much miles ahead in efficiency.

 

It's a fun exercise to prove it's not strictly dead on NA but OP themselves have not recommended to make this a weekly exercise and ironically just recommended people to find a static anyway if they can. Plus the comparison here fails too because not being dead does not mean EU isn't far more active in the LFG (and it is), with sellers absolutely dominating past the weekly reset day in the NA lfg. It's certainly hyperbolic to claim NA is dead but I think it's more about the sentiment regarding it rather than people exaggerating either on purpose or accident. It feels dead because going into discord and particularly moving into EU makes it feel so much more alive. So yeah, it's unfair to say it in a literal way but it cannot be defended as fully functional with respect to the EU scene and to just going into discord either.

[Firebeard.1746]

On 4/16/2023 at 12:50 AM, mythical.6315 said:

I personally would not have ran in masterwork gear for raids unless everyone agreed that it was fine prior to the runs. This otherwise promotes players to go in and get carried.  There’s nothing special about one person playing an off meta build using bad gear. Instead, the challenge was put on to everyone else. 

You win this thread.

 

Na has gotten less picky in the last year or two, but group traffic is still extremely low and the chance of having a group up on my played times is still extremely low. But usually the groups are still labeled exp or semi exp so it would be breaking community rules to go in completely new. At least most of the posts I see have been labeled that way, so if you lie to get experienced, whatever. Technically the guy who trained me lied to get me into groups so maybe it's just par for the course.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Firebeard.1746