Very let down as elementalist. How do I not die in the fractals? Rant/help needed.

[Follet.8751]

Hello!

I'm a main elementalist, almost full ascended berserker geared already with 108AR. I know the top dps rotations very well, and perform on the bot as the top videos (or very close). Both with weaver and catalyst.

BUT

In the fractals, raids and strikes, I die in two to three hits from anything. I dodge the AoEs as best I can and not many hit me, still I die a lot from the bosse's autos and noon see-able attacks (not aoes, just the boss comes/looks to you and hits). Everywhere on the internet, on the discretize, hardstuck, snowcrows and metabattle, all say that elementalist is very weak in terms of survival and requires a good healer/buffer at your side but kitten. Even in those rare cases I get one, I'm as thin as smoking paper.

 

Every single other class I try is in comparison a breeze. Even the other light armor and medium. Exceptional survivability (compared to elementalist), and in most cases easily achievable high dps output with simpler rotations (and boring for me).

What am I doing wrong? I want to play and main elementalist, I love the frenesi and constant cast of skills, but goddammit I can't stay alive! I tried switching to more defense builds, and while I manage to survive more, the dps I do suffers incredibly in doing so.

If anyone has tips, a build to share, or anything at all please do share!

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

You need to run the signet that heals you when you use skills. With a decent APM on your rotation this will make you nearly invulnerable when combined with your occasional block (like Cata hammer Earth #4), and self-heal from water combos. If you're not comboing in water your self-healing will be low.

 

Btw, most AoEs you sidestep and kind of move in a circle, instead of dodging.

 

My Elementalist is usually the last one standing in every fight on full glass. One other thing to keep in mind, you can run full Dragon's on Ele with no DPS loss as they overcap precision due to abundant %crit traits and skills. Berserker may actually be a slight DPS loss because of this.

 

If you can't crit cap on Dragon's then throw a few Marauder pieces in for good measure.

Edited April 16, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Follet.8751]

36 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

You need to run the signet that heals you when you use skills. With a decent APM on your rotation this will make you nearly invulnerable when combined with your occasional block (like Cata hammer Earth #4), and self-heal from water combos. If you're not comboing in water your self-healing will be low.

 

Btw, most AoEs you sidestep and kind of move in a circle, instead of dodging.

 

My Elementalist is usually the last one standing in every fight on full glass. One other thing to keep in mind, you can run full Dragon's on Ele with no DPS loss as they overcap precision due to abundant %crit traits and skills. Berserker may actually be a slight DPS loss because of this.

 

If you can't crit cap on Dragon's then throw a few Marauder pieces in for good measure.

I will try with that signet and take a good look at dragon stats. thanks a lot!

Edit: if it's not too much to ask, could you share me your current build? This is the one i'm using rn:

[&DQYfHSkfQyb+GgAA7hoAAPgaAAC+AQAAJgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

I think it's the one from snowcrows. Full berserker, scholar rune set

Edited April 16, 2023 by Follet.8751

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 hours ago, Follet.8751 said:

I will try with that signet and take a good look at dragon stats. thanks a lot!

Edit: if it's not too much to ask, could you share me your current build? This is the one i'm using rn:

[&DQYfHSkfQyb+GgAA7hoAAPgaAAC+AQAAJgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

I think it's the one from snowcrows. Full berserker, scholar rune set

I have the same build, except I've swapped Air-Stormsoul for Raging Storm as Stormsoul only works well in Fractals, not in dungeons, raids or strike missions where foes rarely have defiance bars.

 

I also have Catalyst-Empowered Empowerment swapped for Staunch Auras. You do no damage while CC'd, and after the Firebrand nerfs permanent Stability isn't a guarantee anymore.

 

One thing to keep in mind, hitting the benchmarks for Snowcrows builds is extremely difficult to survive on and requires the group to pretty much have an awesome healer. Real-world situations don't revolve around benchmarks and you need to modify your rotation slightly with what works for you in the given situation.

 

Practicing the rotation on the golem is just to develop muscle memory. You're not actually supposed to try to do that rotation 24/7, because that's a liability. For example, Catalyst is melee on water and earth, so can only rotate fire and air in dangerous anti-melee situations. You also need to know when to break out of your rotation to defend yourself, as long as you're doing 20k DPS you're okay.

 

The most forgiving DPS build for Elementalist is condi Tempest and in most real-world situations it will do more than both Catalyst and Weaver power builds.

Edited April 16, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[MalekithDG.6124]

6 hours ago, Follet.8751 said:

Hello!

I'm a main elementalist, almost full ascended berserker geared already with 108AR. I know the top dps rotations very well, and perform on the bot as the top videos (or very close). Both with weaver and catalyst.

BUT

In the fractals, raids and strikes, I die in two to three hits from anything. I dodge the AoEs as best I can and not many hit me, still I die a lot from the bosse's autos and noon see-able attacks (not aoes, just the boss comes/looks to you and hits). Everywhere on the internet, on the discretize, hardstuck, snowcrows and metabattle, all say that elementalist is very weak in terms of survival and requires a good healer/buffer at your side but kitten. Even in those rare cases I get one, I'm as thin as smoking paper.

 

Every single other class I try is in comparison a breeze. Even the other light armor and medium. Exceptional survivability (compared to elementalist), and in most cases easily achievable high dps output with simpler rotations (and boring for me).

What am I doing wrong? I want to play and main elementalist, I love the frenesi and constant cast of skills, but goddammit I can't stay alive! I tried switching to more defense builds, and while I manage to survive more, the dps I do suffers incredibly in doing so.

If anyone has tips, a build to share, or anything at all please do share!

Boss shouldnt be hitting you in any way in raids. Where is your guys tank and healer? I mean some bosses will do attack you occasionally regardless but you shouldnt be dying at all if you are stacking with your group. Maybe post the combat logs so we can help.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Healers shouldn't be that rare.  They've been the standard in instanced PVE since raids first came out.  Ele isn't much more frail than Thief and Guardian when they're built for full DPS.  That all said, there's a couple of tips I can give.

1. Glyph of Storms can create a pulsing blind field.
2. Arcane Shield is a great survival tool in desperate situations
3. For scepter and staff builds you can stand a bit further away from the boss and still receive boons.

[vinterberg.2783]

If you have EOD slotting a tier 10 jade core into your jade bot will give you more hp, around 2-2,500 more or so? 

[Follet.8751]

7 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I have the same build, except I've swapped Air-Stormsoul for Raging Storm as Stormsoul only works well in Fractals, not in dungeons, raids or strike missions where foes rarely have defiance bars.

 

I also have Catalyst-Empowered Empowerment swapped for Staunch Auras. You do no damage while CC'd, and after the Firebrand nerfs permanent Stability isn't a guarantee anymore.

 

One thing to keep in mind, hitting the benchmarks for Snowcrows builds is extremely difficult to survive on and requires the group to pretty much have an awesome healer. Real-world situations don't revolve around benchmarks and you need to modify your rotation slightly with what works for you in the given situation.

 

Practicing the rotation on the golem is just to develop muscle memory. You're not actually supposed to try to do that rotation 24/7, because that's a liability. For example, Catalyst is melee on water and earth, so can only rotate fire and air in dangerous anti-melee situations. You also need to know when to break out of your rotation to defend yourself, as long as you're doing 20k DPS you're okay.

 

The most forgiving DPS build for Elementalist is condi Tempest and in most real-world situations it will do more than both Catalyst and Weaver power builds.

 

That is amazing suggestions and guidance, most probably what I needed! Thanks once more! I'll do my best to put your words into practice.

 

7 hours ago, MalekithDG.6124 said:

Boss shouldnt be hitting you in any way in raids. Where is your guys tank and healer? I mean some bosses will do attack you occasionally regardless but you shouldnt be dying at all if you are stacking with your group. Maybe post the combat logs so we can help.

 

I'm not into raids yet, tho the strikes I did went fairily well. I have only issue with fractals.

 

6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Healers shouldn't be that rare.  They've been the standard in instanced PVE since raids first came out.  Ele isn't much more frail than Thief and Guardian when they're built for full DPS.  That all said, there's a couple of tips I can give.

1. Glyph of Storms can create a pulsing blind field.
2. Arcane Shield is a great survival tool in desperate situations
3. For scepter and staff builds you can stand a bit further away from the boss and still receive boons.

 

Ele is said in every guide/build/youtuber and guild member I speak with that it's the squishiest class there is. I don't understand how you compare it with guardian (I also play guardian and it's a walk in the park in comparison, and super tanky with berserker gear and 3/6 trinkets berserker/celestial).

 

Tho I will definetly swap around some traits and skills such as the ones you suggested to stay alive more, arcane shield I also have been seeing it suggested somewhere else, will try it for sure.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

6 hours ago, Follet.8751 said:

Ele is said in every guide/build/youtuber and guild member I speak with that it's the squishiest class there is. I don't understand how you compare it with guardian (I also play guardian and it's a walk in the park in comparison, and super tanky with berserker gear and 3/6 trinkets berserker/celestial).

 

Tho I will definetly swap around some traits and skills such as the ones you suggested to stay alive more, arcane shield I also have been seeing it suggested somewhere else, will try it for sure.

Armor class has very little to do with overall survival.  Ele has a base armor of 1920, while thief has 2064 and guardian has 2211.  This means that thief takes 93% of the damage that an ele would, while guardian takes 87% of the damage.  Apply that modifier to their base health of 11,645, and you'll get a scaled health of 12,521 for thief, and 13,416 for guardians.  In strikes/raids/high fractals enemies do thousands of damage on hit.  The thief and ele will die at the same time, and the guardian will survive an additional hit... maybe.  Against conditions, there's no difference between the three.

The real difference between the three is the active defenses available to each one.  Ele's are less convenient than the others, but with healers being the standard that shouldn't be a problem.  The only raid bosses I haven't beaten as a DPS ele are the ones in Hall of Chains, and that was because I didn't have a good condi build to bring there at the time. 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Ele and thief should always be the first classes that go down when kitten hits the fan (if running full power). Low health n armor pool and barely any easy/naturally accessible blocks/invulns/barrier etc. 

There are however numerous ways how ele can boost its surviveability. 

1. Slot in a jade bot core, grants 235 vit

2. Use fractal potions, adds like ~50% more surviveability

3. Use ascended food, 10% less incoming dmge or lifesteal on crit

4. Use dragon armor pieces instead of berserker when playing pweaver up untill 60% crit chance, adds 185 vit. 

5. Play condi weaver, 17% less incoming dmge from traits, access to invul and ranged

6. Make sure your group is running a HFB. Simply the best healer for fractals atm, no competition for normal pug groups. 

 

Catalyst can become quite tanky aswell (especially when using qcata), but build can be somewhat hard to pull off. 

When compared to other modes of instanced PvE fractals just suck for ele. Alot of visual clutter, aoe dmge and trash mobs ontop of that alot of cc's that can kitten up your skills and relatively inconsistent uptime of quick/alac. 

Yes you can succeed as ele in fractals, but you better have a good group, proper healer and able to handle the mechanics of the fight. 

 

[Edu.6984]

For pve elementalist has a terrible risk/reward. You can achieve same dmg with a lot less effort playing other classes with a higher hp, armor, active and passive defenses. Other classes also tend to have simpler combos and setups. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Edu.6984

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

9 hours ago, Edu.6984 said:

For pve elementalist has a terrible risk/reward. You can achieve same dmg with a lot less effort playing other classes with a higher hp, armor, active and passive defenses. Other classes also tend to have simpler combos and setups. 

People say that a lot, but it isn't necessarily true.  I found running condi axe mirage (an older version), condi renegade, and condi core engi + holosmith to be more difficult than running power sword, condi scepter weaver, power catalyst, and most tempest builds.  I also found quickness herald to be utterly terrible for hand health.  Ele has a lot of buttons to press, but they're usually really simple in comprehension.

[Markus.6415]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:22 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I have the same build, except I've swapped Air-Stormsoul for Raging Storm as Stormsoul only works well in Fractals, not in dungeons, raids or strike missions where foes rarely have defiance bars.

Ahhh i gotta correct you on that. Especially on raids on strikes the Stormsoul trait is the best in slot. It got changed with a couple of other similar traits on some classes to ALWAYS give the dps bonus to "defiant" enemies. That means even when the breakbar is grayed out, you're doing your +10% dps.

Also keep in mind that Weaver is nearly disabled right now due to a bug exploit and a condi focused trait in fire that gives an Aura (Sunspot) is also disabled. Weaver is useless for the duration and Catalyst might have problems upkeeping the full stacks of Empowerment.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Markus.6415

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

39 minutes ago, Markus.6415 said:

Ahhh i gotta correct you on that. Especially on raids on strikes the Stormsoul trait is the best in slot. It got changed with a couple of other similar traits on some classes to ALWAYS give the dps bonus to "defiant" enemies. That means even when the breakbar is grayed out, you're doing your +10% dps.

Also keep in mind that Weaver is nearly disabled right now due to a bug exploit and a condi focused trait in fire that gives an Aura (Sunspot) is also disabled. Weaver is useless for the duration and Catalyst might have problems upkeeping the full stacks of Empowerment.

Still, according to the math this barely translates to a higher damage bonus than the ferocity, and I'm not sure I'm willing to do less damage to all the adds in encounters for a few %more on the bosses.

 

Sometimes things that look good on paper aren't good in practicality. Instanced content has alot more than just the bosses--in fact with how fast Fractals tend to phase through bosses, I'd say the majority of the time is probably spent fighting adds, just like in dungeons.

 

Maybe if Catalyst had a way to keep non-defiant foes disabled, but hammer has garbage crowd control, which is quite ironic considering the purpose of the weapon on other classes.

Edited April 17, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[the krytan assassin.9235]

40 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

Still, according to the math this barely translates to a higher damage bonus than the ferocity, and I'm not sure I'm willing to do less damage to all the adds in encounters for a few %more on the bosses.

 

Sometimes things that look good on paper aren't good in practicality. Instanced content has alot more than just the bosses--in fact with how fast Fractals tend to phase through bosses, I'd say the majority of the time is probably spent fighting adds, just like in dungeons.

10% damage is actually alot more then 180 ferocity (probably only ~3% dps increase). For regular fractals/Dungeons raging storm is fine due to the high amount of trash mobs, low health pool of bosses and extra Fury uptime (although in an ideal situation you'd frequently want to swap your traits). For fractal CMs, strikes and raids however stormsoul is 100% the way to go. 

[Nephalem.8921]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:22 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I also have Catalyst-Empowered Empowerment swapped for Staunch Auras. You do no damage while CC'd, and after the Firebrand nerfs permanent Stability isn't a guarantee anymore.

Which fb nerf? Did i miss any? It only received buffs and is more op than ever.

Staunch auras costs too much dps for too little stab. better take earth armor or arcane shield. You also miss out on 100vita and toughness that way.

On 4/16/2023 at 5:22 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

One thing to keep in mind, hitting the benchmarks for Snowcrows builds is extremely difficult to survive on and requires the group to pretty much have an awesome healer. Real-world situations don't revolve around benchmarks and you need to modify your rotation slightly with what works for you in the given situation.

You dont need a healer for that but very good positioning and awareness.

On 4/16/2023 at 5:22 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

Practicing the rotation on the golem is just to develop muscle memory. You're not actually supposed to try to do that rotation 24/7, because that's a liability. For example, Catalyst is melee on water and earth, so can only rotate fire and air in dangerous anti-melee situations. You also need to know when to break out of your rotation to defend yourself, as long as you're doing 20k DPS you're okay.

 

The most forgiving DPS build for Elementalist is condi Tempest and in most real-world situations it will do more than both Catalyst and Weaver power builds.

Condi tempest will rarely or never do more than an ok played weaver or cata. Condi tempest overloads are melee too. Condi weaver is ranged for everything except primordal stance.

The easiest dps ele build is sword weaver but it has almost no boon generation. the tankiest is cata. feels a bit clunky to play in fractals though.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

7 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

10% damage is actually alot more then 180 ferocity (probably only ~3% dps increase). For regular fractals/Dungeons raging storm is fine due to the high amount of trash mobs, low health pool of bosses and extra Fury uptime (although in an ideal situation you'd frequently want to swap your traits). For fractal CMs, strikes and raids however stormsoul is 100% the way to go. 

Some months ago I wrote a complex program that calculates the results of gear and trait combinations, and the difference is indeed very small; about 4-5%. I doubt its very noticeable unless you're hitting a DPS check.

 

Even so, like you said its probably worth swapping out for the harder content.

Edited April 17, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Which fb nerf? Did i miss any? It only received buffs and is more op than ever.

Staunch auras costs too much dps for too little stab. better take earth armor or arcane shield. You also miss out on 100vita and toughness that way.

You dont need a healer for that but very good positioning and awareness.

Condi tempest will rarely or never do more than an ok played weaver or cata. Condi tempest overloads are melee too. Condi weaver is ranged for everything except primordal stance.

The easiest dps ele build is sword weaver but it has almost no boon generation. the tankiest is cata. feels a bit clunky to play in fractals though.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, Firebrand lost a ton of Stability as it was slowly moved onto other classes. They can still spam it, but its requires very specific skill combinations that interfere with healing. Even the tome F3-#5 takes pages away from your F2 healing tome after the most recent changes.

 

The OP was specifically talking about groups with healers.

 

I was talking about real-world situations in which PUGs, mechanics and mistakes happen. When it comes to Ele in particular, there's just no beating the combination of self-defense combined with passive damage uptime of Tempest in regards to what the OP was talking about, which is surviving while doing damage.

Edited April 17, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Nephalem.8921]

16 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I'm not sure what you're saying here, Firebrand lost a ton of Stability as it was slowly moved onto other classes. They can still spam it, but its requires very specific skill combinations that interfere with healing. Even the tome F3-#5 takes pages away from your F2 healing tome after the most recent changes.

 

The OP was specifically talking about groups with healers.

 

I was talking about real-world situations in which PUGs, mechanics and mistakes happen. When it comes to Ele in particular, there's just no beating the combination of self-defense combined with passive damage uptime of Tempest in regards to what the OP was talking about, which is surviving while doing damage.

Catalyst beats tempest in that area. 20% all stats + 15% damage reduction from earth + a very potent heal in water 4 as part of your dps rotation and its higher apm so it results in more signet proccs. Tempest has no passive damage. Condi weaver is much better in that area too since it does not have melee overloads.

If you mean aa dps with passive damage uptime then power weaver beats it hard. Especially now that tempest is bugged and the dagger rushes being this clunky.

Regarding firebrand: It did lose f3 1 stab but before you could only enter that tome once and it had a hefty cooldown. Now you only have stab on f3 5 but you can enter it at will. Same for healing. You can enter the f2 tome at will now. The tome changes were massive buffs to heal firebrand. Stability uptime from elite or shout did not change at all. 

[Nephalem.8921]

29 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

Some months ago I wrote a complex program that calculates the results of gear and trait combinations, and the difference is indeed very small; about 4-5%. I doubt its very noticeable unless you're hitting a DPS check.

 

Even so, like you said its probably worth swapping out for the harder content.

5% difference means its twice as strong as the other option. Also adds some bonus cc. You do not have to write such programs yourself. They already exist:

https://optimizer.discretize.eu/?m=fractals

[soulknight.9620]

On 4/16/2023 at 6:22 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I also have Catalyst-Empowered Empowerment swapped for Staunch Auras. You do no damage while CC'd, and after the Firebrand nerfs permanent Stability isn't a guarantee anymore.

Waaaht? You can easily go for perma stab with the correct build. Elite mantra is ur friend. And you actually can manage stab from F3 tome a lot easier nowadays since its on a 25 sec cd without alac. Prior to the rework you could only get a few stacks of stab from F3 tome once 75 secs. All of the other skills still function the same for stab. 

 

28 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

Even the tome F3-#5 takes pages away from your F2 healing tome after the most recent changes.

Why on earth would you use F2 healing unless something goes incredibly bad in fracs? HFB has enough healing without the need of F2 skills. If thats not enough for the group then ur group is playing incredibly bad. When i go for t4 CMs with pugs i rarely bother with anything other than buffing (incl.stab when needed) and healing with A/S and staff. If i manage to get timings with aegis right then its a real cakewalk. The only time that is not sufficient is when party fails a oneshot mechanic like 100CM water teather phase or they somehow manage to catch all of the puddles and projectiles of the boss. 

[stormemperor.3745]

On 4/16/2023 at 12:10 AM, Follet.8751 said:

What am I doing wrong? I play elementalist,I can't stay alive!

TLDR: This sums up everything.

In short, you can't elementalist is bait. 

What you can do is, watch for everything, literally everything, every boss action, teammate action, where they position themselves, what atk boss is going to use etc. This requires time, there is nothing you can do right now to suddenly survive every encounter... Unless you play another profession 😄

Play guardian, use lithany , literally tank everything and deal op damage.

[Ragnarox.9601]

You die cause you are berserker, use marauder or dragon (this is better) stats. 

[Juniper.8197]

On 4/16/2023 at 11:54 AM, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

 

5. Play condi weaver, 17% less incoming dmge from traits, access to invul and ranged

 

Which trait are you referring to? Master's Fortitude?

[Arheundel.6451]

Elementalist is a stats check class...you can't afford glass stats and expect the same results as some other classes, which have access to inbuilt defensive mechanics regardless of traits. On ele you need to trait for dmg(aire/fire) and sustain(water) or tankiness (earth), plus need to invest in utilities for defenses....this is the main reason why most pve eles run condi specs