Mirage and Vindicator dodges

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Hello,

Dear GW2 and ANet fans and staff.

I am wondering if the developers will ever consider replacing Mirage and Vindicator dodges with normal ones and just make their special attacks an F skill?

 

I understand that these dodges can be fun and challenging for some people.

But I often wonder why just these two?

 

Just think that it's such a shame that two of my favourite ES's had to have this handicap.

 

I suggest the following:

In Competitive modes, to have one single normal dodge, and place the attacks as F skills.

So for Vin would be the teleport to sword slam, and the mirage would be the weapon enhancer with distortion.

That way they won't feel overpowered, but still have a normal dodge. 

In pve they could still have both dodges.

 

What say you?

[PolarBear.3961]

You forgot deardevil. I cant play these 3 classes because of this dodge thing...

[Gibson.4036]

Why is mirage dodge a “handicap”?

Other than the PvP reduction.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

7 hours ago, PolarBear.3961 said:

You forgot deardevil. I cant play these 3 classes because of this dodge thing...

I know.

But Daredevil still has 3 new types of dodges, just different anumations; and it gets 3 endurance bars.

That's why I didn't include them.

 

But yes. I agree, I tried to master these two, and just find them so handicapped. 

Silverwastes is a no go zone for neither.

The morderem are unforgiving for non dodgers.

Don't get me started on WvW.

You may still get away with murder if you blend in with a squad that has plenty of heals and speed boons, otherwise it's complete and utter useless. 

The saying : "If you find yourself alone in WvW as a Mirage, don't bother running, for you are already dead"

Applies here.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

7 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Why is mirage dodge a “handicap”?

Other than the PvP reduction.

The PVP/WVW reduction is the handicap. It's fine in PVE.

[Gibson.4036]

1 minute ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

The PVP/WVW reduction is the handicap. It's fine in PVE.

It doesn’t look like that’s true for the OP. Looks like they have another issue with Mirage dodge.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

It doesn’t look like that’s true for the OP. Looks like they have another issue with Mirage dodge.

I don't agree with the OP's opinion. The special dodges are fun and flavorful, and I wish the game had more of them. A wind dodge for the elementalist or a blocking/protector dodge that absorbs attacks for the guardian for instance.

 

[Gibson.4036]

7 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I don't agree with the OP's opinion. The special dodges are fun and flavorful, and I wish the game had more of them. A wind dodge for the elementalist or a blocking/protector dodge that absorbs attacks for the guardian for instance.

 

I agree. I was trying to understand what issue they had.

[Buran.3796]

4 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

But yes. I agree, I tried to master these two, and just find them so handicapped. 

Silverwastes is a no go zone for neither.

The morderem are unforgiving for non dodgers.

Don't get me started on WvW.

  Both Vindicator and Mirage can solo pretty much any bounty in the game (including legendaries), and you're having problems with the foes in Silverwastes and HoT? 

   You need to change your builds, the way in which you play or both. Those two specs are not only extremely capable in PvE, but (in straight contrast with, lets say, Bladesworn) also very easy to play.   

[PolarBear.3961]

The problem is that the elite special attack/spell IS the dodge button so you are FORCED to dodge all the time and waste your evades to do dmg... if you dont see a problem here you should get glasses 😛

[Markus.6415]

8 minutes ago, PolarBear.3961 said:

The problem is that the elite special attack/spell IS the dodge button so you are FORCED to dodge all the time and waste your evades to do dmg... if you dont see a problem here you should get glasses 😛

And that's why those 3 specs have a lot more dodges on their hand, got self vigor or even stronger vigor on the traits and other skills to evade or block.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, PolarBear.3961 said:

The problem is that the elite special attack/spell IS the dodge button so you are FORCED to dodge all the time and waste your evades to do dmg... if you dont see a problem here you should get glasses 😛

Exactly.

Thank you very much.

 

There are those who choose to sugar coat an elite spec and dismiss all of your issues as nonsense. 

Then repeat what I've already said in a different way to make it look more appealing. 

Sellers mentality.

Trying to sell a product that simply just doesn't work for the majority of players.

The average player will look at it and think:

Why should I bother with an ES that feels more like a task or a chore to play with when you can do the same or better with other ES with half the effort?

 

As I wrote in OP.

It can be fun to play with... if, you are around Queensdale killing moas.

The mirage dodge IS an handicap, in tough areas and WvW.

But I'm not going to argue with them, if they choose to ignore it, and again, try to sugar coat a problem in a class. In this case, two.

 

They choose to ignore that it is only fun when you're winning; but in reality, they probably don't even try it out for themselves.

Questioning what I already affirmed as hard fact.

 

Yes, Mirage and Vindicator dodges are a huge problem in areas such as Silverwastes and WvW.

As you very well put "The problem is that the dodge is the attack, and we're waisting it away"

So when we really need to dodge a mordrem trasher, or any other mordrem for that matter, the mirage is getting hit from every angle.

What most people who comment, don't seem to understand that this comes from a player that only spends on average 15 minutes in the forums, and I spend a LOT of time actually playing the game, and actually hard testing professions and elite specs to the max.

So trust me 100% when I say that Mirage is NOT an end game ES. Fact.

That dodge needs to be changed to a normal dodge or significantly improved. 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Gibson.4036]

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

As I wrote in OP.

It can be fun to play with... if, you are around Queensdale killing moas.

The mirage dodge IS an handicap, in tough areas and WvW.

I haven't played it in WvW, but I find this bewildering regarding "tough areas" in PvE since Mirage is generally acknowledged as one of the easisest classes with which to solo content intended for groups.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

 

They choose to ignore that it is only fun when you're winning; but in reality, they probably don't even try it out for themselves.

I've got 553 hours on St/Axe Mirage. It's my go-to spec when I want to be immortal soloing HPs or other OW group content.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

 

Questioning what I already affirmed as hard fact.

Yes, Mirage and Vindicator dodges are a huge problem in areas such as Silverwastes and WvW.

Just because you say you affirmed it as "hard fact" doesn't make it true.

And... Silverwastes? That's your "tough area"?

Clearly Mirage is not your deal, but that doesn't make it inherently flawed. It might just not be the right fit for you.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

 

What most people who comment, don't seem to understand that this comes from a player that only spends on average 15 minutes in the forums, and I spend a LOT of time actually playing the game, and actually hard testing professions and elite specs to the max.

I find that hard to believe when your idea of a "tough area" is the Silverwastes.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

3 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I haven't played it in WvW, but I find this bewildering regarding "tough areas" in PvE since Mirage is generally acknowledged as one of the easisest classes with which to solo content intended for groups.

I've got 553 hours on St/Axe Mirage. It's my go-to spec when I want to be immortal soloing HPs or other OW group content.

Just because you say you affirmed it as "hard fact" doesn't make it true.

And... Silverwastes? That's your "tough area"?

Clearly Mirage is not your deal, but that doesn't make it inherently flawed. It might just not be the right fit for you.

I find that hard to believe when your idea of a "tough area" is the Silverwastes.

Fellow... player.

Please don't argue just for the sake of arguing.

You are insinuating that I'm a lier, and then dismiss facts by saying "facts doesn't make it true"

For your information, facts are true.

You don't believe me, and I don't believe you when you say mirage is the ES you go to, to solo stuff other people play in group. Really?

So other people are incompetent, and you are the master player?

If these are your best two arguments, we're done here.

I have tried mirage with the best possible gear. 

I even soloed some champions to test it out... some I found a breeze, some I got absolutely wrecked. 

So no, I didn't test it out in Silverwastes and WvW only.

In WvW, I was able to beat two players on a 1V2 duel, but against a pro thief or any other pro melee you get totally wrecked. No question.

I tried it in PvP. Didn't do bad actually. But had to constantly use stealth skills.

Tried it in most End game maps, tried it in fractals and dungeons; world bosses...

So when I say I hard test a profession; I really mean I hard test it to the limit.

I don't hang around Queensdale killing moas and then come here to the forums and say "There's nothing wrong with mirage"

That is not what the devs want to hear.

They want truthfulness in order for them to be able to adress flaws with professions.

That's what the balance team want to hear.

How can they possibly improve a product, when the 000.1% of players that hang around the forum all day keeps telling them that everything is fine and doesn't need changing?

 

I have always been as honest and forthcoming as I possibly can in these forums.

When I make a request or state my thoughts, it is because I truly believe in what I'm typing.

It is not a personal preference.

I really like the mirage, and really enjoy playing with it, but truly believe that the dodge fused with the attack is an issue, and there is always room for improvement. 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Buran.3796]

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I have tried mirage with the best possible gear. 

I even soloed some champions to test it out... some I found a breeze, some I got absolutely wrecked. 

So no, I didn't test it out in Silverwastes and WvW only.

 

Tried it in most End game maps, tried it in fractals and dungeons; world bosses...

So when I say I hard test a profession; I really mean I hard test it to the limit.

I don't hang around Queensdale killing moas and then come here to the forums and say "There's nothing wrong with mirage"

   Here's Hizen soloing all legendary bounties with Mirage;  has also videos soloing plenty of strikes and fractals with the same spec:

 

   Similar thing with Vindicator, it can run power or condi damage (condi is stronger but I enjoy more the power build):

 

    Now, competitive game modes are entirely different (PvP, WvW roaming, zergs...). When the meta and sustain is high, bruiser builds dominate (as celestial weaver, bunker druid or power scrapper), when the sustain is a bit lowers stealth & high mobility builds dominate (daredevil, trapper ranger, deadeye...). Some specs are harder to play no matter if they are competitive or not...   Is just the nature of the game. In Tekken, if you like Mishimas but you're unable to consistently combo the Electric Wind Godfist then you're screwed, and better just a character with easier combos...  If you still want to use Mishimas because you like them then you have to put effort in dealing with their shortcomings and learn their weakness. Neither Mirage or Vindicator are top dogs at PvP or roaming WvW at the game, but good players can absolutely wreck people using them.

[otto.5684]

On 4/23/2023 at 1:37 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I know.

But Daredevil still has 3 new types of dodges, just different anumations; and it gets 3 endurance bars.

That's why I didn't include them.

 

But yes. I agree, I tried to master these two, and just find them so handicapped. 

Silverwastes is a no go zone for neither.

The morderem are unforgiving for non dodgers.

Don't get me started on WvW.

You may still get away with murder if you blend in with a squad that has plenty of heals and speed boons, otherwise it's complete and utter useless. 

The saying : "If you find yourself alone in WvW as a Mirage, don't bother running, for you are already dead"

Applies here.

“Silver wastes no go zone.” What?! I do not like to say, but you seriously need to L2P. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Here's Hizen soloing all legendary bounties with Mirage;  has also videos soloing plenty of strikes and fractals with the same spec:

 

   Similar thing with Vindicator, it can run power or condi damage (condi is stronger but I enjoy more the power build):

 

    Now, competitive game modes are entirely different (PvP, WvW roaming, zergs...). When the meta and sustain is high, bruiser builds dominate (as celestial weaver, bunker druid or power scrapper), when the sustain is a bit lowers stealth & high mobility builds dominate (daredevil, trapper ranger, deadeye...). Some specs are harder to play no matter if they are competitive or not...   Is just the nature of the game. In Tekken, if you like Mishimas but you're unable to consistently combo the Electric Wind Godfist then you're screwed, and better just a character with easier combos...  If you still want to use Mishimas because you like them then you have to put effort in dealing with their shortcomings and learn their weakness. Neither Mirage or Vindicator are top dogs at PvP or roaming WvW at the game, but good players can absolutely wreck people using them.

While I agree Silverwastes is not the toughest zone out there, and mirage and vindi do indeed have excellent tools to solo tough content, I do not agree that Hizen's feats are evidence of a class's standards of play. He's quite a few tiers above the average player. Not everyone can Hizen.

Not to discredit his builds or the estimation of their potential; just something to keep in mind that those techniques and builds may not work or are not achievable for many players. Probably most players.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I don't know if Anet has ever considered it, but one of the ideas I had to solve so many of the issues that Vindicator had was to make the dragoon drop an F skill.  That way, instead of nerfing all of the traits and endurance generation, they could have strong traits.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493

[Buran.3796]

10 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

 I do not agree that Hizen's feats are evidence of a class's standards of play. He's quite a few tiers above the average player. Not everyone can Hizen.

Not to discredit his builds or the estimation of their potential; just something to keep in mind that those techniques and builds may not work or are not achievable for many players. Probably most players.

    Last month I've soloed 65% of the bounties in PoF maps with his power Vindicator build, and 95% with his condi Vindicator build (the 5% which I wasn't able to finish was due they have too much cc or are too evassive as the ram and the rabbit in the Desest Highlands, and still I lost for time, not due any of those were a real threat). My skill level is below average, never reached plat 1 in PvP and my w/l ratio is usually around 50-52%. I can't play the same as Hizen with every class (some of his builds are harder to use than others, and some are even boring), but Mirage and Vindicator are almost AFK easy to play and very efficient in PvE.

   Of course, if you blueprint a dps raid build and go solo OW with no external support, it would require high skill and very narrow tolerances to mistakes to be able to survive in some of those encounters, but with the rigth build solo OW is EZ.

[Gibson.4036]

On 4/24/2023 at 3:29 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Please don't argue just for the sake of arguing.

You are insinuating that I'm a lier, and then dismiss facts by saying "facts doesn't make it true"

For your information, facts are true.

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't think you're lying. I think you're mistaken.

Facts are, indeed, true, but stating that you've given facts doesn't make that true.

On 4/24/2023 at 3:29 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You don't believe me, and I don't believe you when you say mirage is the ES you go to, to solo stuff other people play in group. Really?

So other people are incompetent, and you are the master player?

I'm by no means a master player. I'm pretty mediocre. That's why I use things like Mirage when I want to be safe. I don't have what it takes to solo tough content on all professions like Lord Hizen does.

I see that you don't believe me. I don't need you to. But you may want to consider you're missing something here.

Metabattle calls Mirage "...one of the strongest open world builds, capable of soloing champions and bosses with ease thanks to its damage, its evasiveness, clones tanking for you, and its mobility. " Hardstuck calls celestial Mirage beginner friendly and survivable. Google builds for survivability and soloing champs and you'll see Mirage consistenly grouped with the likes of condi Renegade and Necros.

Mirage dodge is not a handicap, it's overpowered. That's why ArenaNet nerfed it to one endurance bar in PvP. They (so far) haven't figured out how to keep it from being too strong short of limiting how often we can use it.

The thing that trips people up with Mirage dodge at first is that they get used to using other profession's dodge to reposition as well as evade.

First, it's important to recognize that many players dodge to reposition when they could just walk out of attacks, or circle strafe to stay behind what they're fighting. In general you want to save dodges for when you actually need the evade frames, not just to get out of red circles.

Mirage has a ton of evade frames. It also has Lingering Thoughts, Axes of Symmetry, Phase Retreat and Jaunt for reposiitioning. The trick is learning that you don't get evasion and repositioing bundled into one thing, dodge. But as stated above, it's better not to automatically rely on dodge as your reposition on any class.

And yes, you are using your dodge to trigger ambushes. You do have to think about it a bit. You have mirrors from skills you can use instead of dodging. You have reposition skills to get out of the way of an attack. You have acces to daze, distortion, stun, blind, weakness, regen, and incrased movement speed. Dodge is only one damage mitigation tool among many.

On 4/24/2023 at 3:29 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

So when I say I hard test a profession; I really mean I hard test it to the limit.

I don't hang around Queensdale killing moas and then come here to the forums and say "There's nothing wrong with mirage"

That's cool. Neither do I. I can't even imagine what it would be like to play over 500 hours (my mirage play time) just killing moas in Queensdale. 

On 4/24/2023 at 3:29 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

 

That is not what the devs want to hear.

They want truthfulness in order for them to be able to adress flaws with professions.

That's what the balance team want to hear.

How can they possibly improve a product, when the 000.1% of players that hang around the forum all day keeps telling them that everything is fine and doesn't need changing?

My post history is evidence I have plenty of criticism for the game.

Everything is not fine. In PvE Mesmer dodge is fine.

In PvP, its problem is that it is too powerful, which means they've left Mirage languishing with one dodge bar for over three years.

It's possible Mirage just isn't your jam. I keep trying to play Guardian, also recognized as having good survivability, but I die fast. It just doesn't click with me, and I haven't taken the time to learn it's active defenses yet.

But that's not the same thing as saying the profession is inherently flawed.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Markus.6415]

On 4/24/2023 at 1:46 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Exactly.

Thank you very much.

 

There are those who choose to sugar coat an elite spec and dismiss all of your issues as nonsense. 

Then repeat what I've already said in a different way to make it look more appealing. 

Sellers mentality.

Trying to sell a product that simply just doesn't work for the majority of players.

The average player will look at it and think:

Why should I bother with an ES that feels more like a task or a chore to play with when you can do the same or better with other ES with half the effort?

 

As I wrote in OP.

It can be fun to play with... if, you are around Queensdale killing moas.

The mirage dodge IS an handicap, in tough areas and WvW.

But I'm not going to argue with them, if they choose to ignore it, and again, try to sugar coat a problem in a class. In this case, two.

 

They choose to ignore that it is only fun when you're winning; but in reality, they probably don't even try it out for themselves.

Questioning what I already affirmed as hard fact.

 

Yes, Mirage and Vindicator dodges are a huge problem in areas such as Silverwastes and WvW.

As you very well put "The problem is that the dodge is the attack, and we're waisting it away"

So when we really need to dodge a mordrem trasher, or any other mordrem for that matter, the mirage is getting hit from every angle.

What most people who comment, don't seem to understand that this comes from a player that only spends on average 15 minutes in the forums, and I spend a LOT of time actually playing the game, and actually hard testing professions and elite specs to the max.

So trust me 100% when I say that Mirage is NOT an end game ES. Fact.

That dodge needs to be changed to a normal dodge or significantly improved. 

 

I feel a bit confused to be honest. You're asking other people to state their opinion on vindicator and mirage dodges, and of course there are players that have a different opinion then yours. Then you come at them saying they're ignorant and "sugar coating a problem" and claims that the majority of people doesn't like them either?

I personally don't feel like that and like how the dodges work for those specs. Vindicator did have his bad time when it had only 1 dodge though, but that has been patched a long time ago.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

On 4/25/2023 at 12:33 AM, otto.5684 said:

“Silver wastes no go zone.” What?! I do not like to say, but you seriously need to L2P. 

Talk is cheap. You are going to show me in game how you handle yourself with a mirage and a vindicator in places of my choice.

Walk the walk. 

... and there is no need for insults. Is there?

You're telling me to learn to play, after all I just posted.

You didn't bother read, did you?

 

It's easy to come to the forums and gang up on people to bully them, and easy to type just about anything.

Prove it.

Simple as that.

 

[SoulGuardian.6203]

6 hours ago, Markus.6415 said:

I feel a bit confused to be honest. You're asking other people to state their opinion on vindicator and mirage dodges,

If my memory doesn't fail, I not once asked for people's oppinion in this topic.

I made a request to ANet to at least add a second endurance dodge for Mirage, or replace it with a normal one for it and Vindicator.

"What say you" is meant for the devs. 

But ok. I can see why you got confused.

6 hours ago, Markus.6415 said:

and of course there are players that have a different opinion then yours.

And that's fine... 

But fact is that mirage is the least played ES in WvW, and for a good reason. 

In my experience, I never seen one in End Game maps neither.

ANet must have the stats. 

They know what I'm stating is probably true.

6 hours ago, Markus.6415 said:

Then you come at them saying they're ignorant and "sugar coating a problem" and claims that the majority of people doesn't like them either?

Why is this even relevant now to the topic in hand?

You are doing the complete opposite of sugar coating and trying to discredit what I've said by making me look bad.

Can you sink lower?

I don't think you've tried hard enough.

Please feel free to twist more of my words to single me out for ridicule.

Manipulating a post to try make someone look bad in order to discredit everything else they say is a sort of bullying. 

But do carry on.

6 hours ago, Markus.6415 said:

I personally don't feel like that and like how the dodges work for those specs. Vindicator did have his bad time when it had only 1 dodge though, but that has been patched a long time ago.

Well, that's awesome. Grand.

You are one satisfied costumer.

But at least we can agree on something. 

The second dodge in competitive modes should be added back.

Edited April 26, 2023 by SoulGuardian.6203

[zeyeti.8347]

I personnaly don't use mirage in pve open world and i don't play daredevil , i kind of agree that mirage -1 dodge in pvp/wvw is a huge handicap , but if you want it back be ready to suffer extra cooldowns/nerfs on all mirage cloak skills , remind that there was a pvp build that allowed mirage to be on "dodge" like 66-75% of the time , this nerf was mostly because of that.

On daredevil the fact that your dodge (for power mainly) is huge damage on landing and dodging force you to a ceratin direction , make it really hard to hit small mob hitboxes , and on certain endgame content with narrow platform and deadpits everywhere i would stress out to play daredevil.

On the other hand vindicator is simply a monster in open world , if you use the two sigils who give you endurance on swapping weapon and full back on a kill , you can just perma dodge , combined with the Gs skill 4 block who has a 12 sec cd only . and it's very satisfying to spam dodge on a pack of mobs and see them melt .

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

 

On the other hand vindicator is simply a monster in open world , if you use the two sigils who give you endurance on swapping weapon and full back on a kill , you can just perma dodge , combined with the Gs skill 4 block who has a 12 sec cd only . and it's very satisfying to spam dodge on a pack of mobs and see them melt .

 

I'll have to try this.

 

I currently have them both sigils and also runes that replenish endurance on my mirage.

They are:

Superior Sigil of Energy 

Superior Sigil of Stamina

Superior Rune of the Adventurer

 

Funny you've said that, because only just yesterday afternoon, I managed to escape a huge squad twice with mirage.

Modesty aside, I impressed myself... to see how confused they were; and funny to watch them looking for me right amongst them, and could not tell which ones were the illusions.

That was a really fun bit.

 

I haven't played a great deal on vindicator yet.

Even though i like the ES a lot, I tend to play mostly with certain other ES.

Edited April 26, 2023 by SoulGuardian.6203