We're Looking At the Latest Gyala Delve Journal Entry All Wrong...

[mandala.8507]

Okay, so I'm going into Sleuthing Solutions spoilers here, so if you don't want spoilers for the story up through that content, here's the warning.

In the latest update from Gorrik, he brings up a solution to the demon problem we're having that has a lot of players miffed right now. In this log, he says that instead of us solving our internal issues, he, Joon, Yao, and Taimi have come up with a way to use technology against the demon instead.

Understandably, players who were excited for a story focused on post-traumatic stress and the Commander's journey toward healing their inner self via confronting their past traumas organically have been put off by this less sentimental, magitechnological solution.

However, I think we players have erred in properly assessing the best immediate course of action for remedying the Commander's (and Cantha's) current demon predicament.

To explain, I want to compare the current End of Dragons plotline to that of the 2005 film Batman Begins.

I'm gonna do spoilers for this movie now too, so watch out.

In particular, I want to present the parallels between one of that movie's villains, Scarecrow, and the Gyala Delve demon. In the movie, Scarecrow (known also as Dr. Jonathan Crane) is secretly attempting to send Gotham City into mass hysteria by delivering his infamous "fear toxin" into the waterways and releasing it as vapor using a military weapon stolen from Wayne Enterprises.

Similarly in Gyala Delve, there is a demon feasting on a leyline (a stream of Tyrian magic), by which has generated a magical hallucinogen related to Void that Gorrik and friends have dubbed "Haze". Similar to the fear toxin, Haze induces visions of one's greatest fears and triggers hysteria in those exposed to it.

In both of these stories, the problem that needs to be solved isn't the fear itself — the problem is the substance triggering that fear response.

In Batman Begins, Batman doesn't save the city by making Bruce Wayne get over the deaths of his parents. He saves Gotham with the aid of his intelligent friend who develops an antidote to the toxin triggering the hysteria, allowing him to combat the threats to Gotham free from mental anguish. He then is able to confront the villain Scarecrow and shut down his operation that was spiking the city's water supply in an attempt to destroy Gotham with its own fear.

And quite similarly in Guild Wars 2's story, we can't save Cantha from the demon threat by magically having the Commander get over the deaths of their late compatriots. However, we can have our friends develop a way to thwart the demon's hallucinogenic magic and turn it against them to defeat the demon and shut down its discharge of miasmic energies that may imperil all of Cantha.

Basically what I'm saying is: the victims of the demon and their most tender emotional wounds are not the root of the problem here. The external force triggering them is. They (we) do not need fixing; the demons and the Haze magic do.

And who knows. Perhaps in fast-approaching story content we may delve into the Commander's trauma in greater depth and have the healing of our trauma be a primary component of the solution to some future, larger problem dealing with demons; specifically those connected to our deepest inner fears or maybe even the primal source of fear itself.

Anyway...just wanted to share my perspective on why we may not be taking a larger detour into "Commander therapy land" quite yet.

I could be absolutely wrong about the direction they're going here once we finally get to play the closing chapter of EoD, but I felt the need to push back against the premature outcries Gorrik's latest log precipitated. I think the direction makes sense given the scale of the arc we are in currently and want us not to go into the episode predisposed only to be satisfied with events playing out a certain way.

[anninke.7469]

Well, let's hope Gorrik and the gang test their new all-solving toy on someone else than the Commander. Like one of their shiny new friends they care so much about while having totally ignored the Commander's existence itself (let alone some pesky feelings) for almost the whole kittening time since Sleuthing began.

BTW, Commander's comfort cookies where?

[Fueki.4753]

I think part of the issue with this is that some people are miffed about Asura technology and Taimi potentially being used as a wonder solution that solves an issue off-screen once again, rather than the player taking part in creating the solution.

Also, some people do not like the idea of sci-fi stuff solving the issue, instead of simply duking it out with the demon in good old fantasy fashion.

[Tazer.2157]

The commander and the team always win and after dealing with the threat, the world is back to its regular old self again. There is no urgency and nothing of consequence happens. There have been no proper conclusions to the Charr civil war, the end of the dragon threat, the loss of the magical energy in the Jade, the bloodstone explosion. There are no attempts to introduce nuances into the story. Couple this with all the meta-commentary in Cantha, and for me, it was an eye rolling-painful experience to get through the story. I have zero expectations for the story anymore.  Playing GW2 is now like getting a dopamine fix of doing meta events with your brain turned off and music in the background.  

[mandala.8507]

5 hours ago, anninke.7469 said:

Well, let's hope Gorrik and the gang test their new all-solving toy on someone else than the Commander. Like one of their shiny new friends they care so much about while having totally ignored the Commander's existence itself (let alone some pesky feelings) for almost the whole kittening time since Sleuthing began.

I mean, I feel like we got off rather easy compared to some in our group.

Gorrik had to see his deceased brother stare at him menacingly and then attack him as a swarm of beetles, clawing away at him until he almost suffocated.

And Chul-Moo's crew has been biting him without warning like a pack of ravenous wolves attempting to drag him back down into the mine.

5 hours ago, anninke.7469 said:

BTW, Commander's comfort cookies where?

We'll get our turn to be comforted when we stop deflecting. And our friends were nice to us after we passed out. I felt like they cared, personally.

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Also, some people do not like the idea of sci-fi stuff solving the issue, instead of simply duking it out with the demon in good old fantasy fashion.

That's what fractals are for.

And I'm sure we'll still be duking it out with the demon. We'll just be pressing a special action key or something while we do it. Not being able to brute force our way through every threat doesn't really bother me. Honestly, it'd be worse if that's all we did every time and the world's science and magic was just an afterthought when considering how to deal with each new threat to Tyria.

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Tazer.2157 said:

The commander and the team always win and after dealing with the threat, the world is back to its regular old self again. There is no urgency and nothing of consequence happens. There have been no proper conclusions to the Charr civil war, the end of the dragon threat, the loss of the magical energy in the Jade, the bloodstone explosion. There are no attempts to introduce nuances into the story. Couple this with all the meta-commentary in Cantha, and for me, it was an eye rolling-painful experience to get through the story. I have zero expectations for the story anymore.  Playing GW2 is now like getting a dopamine fix of doing meta events with your brain turned off and music in the background.  

When I read comments like this, I'm always curious what projects/stories that person does find compelling. You got any examples of stuff you think is good? Just so I can understand what actually good storytelling looks like to you.

[Tazer.2157]

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

When I read comments like this, I'm always curious what projects/stories that person does find compelling. You got any examples of stuff you think is good? Just so I can understand what actually good storytelling looks like to you.

Caithe's story arc 

[mandala.8507]

20 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Caithe's story arc 

Okay. I like Caithe. I'd actually say she's my favorite character in the entire game. But I don't think there's some huge chasm between her story and that of characters like Taimi, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, Rytlock, Aurene, etc.

Could you elaborate on what exactly about Caithe's arc you like that differs from that of other characters in the spotlight right now or from the plot in general?

Or even better, what about the current characters and plot you don't like that isn't present in Caithe's arc?

[Ashantara.8731]

Every story in GW2 seems to be taking the same course always ever since HoT, leaving no room for surprises and excitement:

Something's wrong? Well, let's invent a technology to solve the issue.

No pure magic, no cool mystery... all tech, tech, tech. It's getting old and boring.
 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Randulf.7614]

8 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Every story in GW2 seems to be taking the same course always ever since HoT, leaving no room for surprises and excitement:

Something's wrong? Well, let's invent a technology to solve the issue.

No pure magic, no cool mystery... all tech, tech, tech. It's getting old and boring.
 

Not entirely true since Aurene has been our pure magic fix for everything else.

But, the gist of your point I agree with. We always seem to have what we need to fix a problem at exactly the time we need it. For example, we had no idea how to kill mordy until we turned up on his doorstep and had an epiphany. Taimi (whose character I’ve never had an issue with) always invents something just when we need it.

I have no wish to examine my characters psyche as a plot in an action based rpg, but this suddenly having tech to channel the nightmare energy back at the demon is all a bit weird as an alternative. I would object less if a seemingly pivotal moment wasn’t consigned to some filler dialogue and we had some involvement in making it. 

[Tazer.2157]

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Okay. I like Caithe. I'd actually say she's my favorite character in the entire game. But I don't think there's some huge chasm between her story and that of characters like Taimi, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, Rytlock, Aurene, etc.

Could you elaborate on what exactly about Caithe's arc you like that differs from that of other characters in the spotlight right now or from the plot in general?

Or even better, what about the current characters and plot you don't like that isn't present in Caithe's arc?

First off, I am sorry for posting a comment which deviated away from your original forum post. But judging how recent events have panned out, I found myself uninterested about the future of Cantha and the new demon in the depts.  Caithe's story is one of the better ones in this game because it brought the world to life and it led to a character having an impact on the world. We experienced the early troubles between the Silvari and Asura, the story introduced us to Centaurs in the desert and the Zephyrites. In addition, it also gave us more insight into who Caithe was and what made her become who she is today. It wasn't afraid to show Caithe as someone with weaknesses and strengths, or the cold blooded nature of the Asura. Now coming back to your original post, our experience for the latest patch will be like this: Gorrick and Taimi will find a way for us to beat the demon which will then somehow restore the magic in the Jade and behold, we save Cantha. The end. 

[mandala.8507]

58 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

First off, I am sorry for posting a comment which deviated away from your original forum post.

No worries. I feel like this conversation is actually very related to my post.

59 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Caithe's story is one of the better ones in this game because it brought the world to life and it led to a character having an impact on the world. We experienced the early troubles between the Silvari and Asura, the story introduced us to Centaurs in the desert and the Zephyrites. In addition, it also gave us more insight into who Caithe was and what made her become who she is today. It wasn't afraid to show Caithe as someone with weaknesses and strengths, or the cold blooded nature of the Asura.

But I don't see how that isn't true of a lot of other characters. Perhaps Caithe just resonates with you more.

You still haven't really honed in on anything unique to Caithe with these examples in my opinion, because I could take up a whole day listing other characters who did, were, and experienced all the things you've brought up here to varying degrees since Heart of Thorns.

I'm of the opinion Guild Wars 2 has only ever improved when it came to writing characters, so I'm still a bit confused as to what specifically about this current story is not impressing you in terms of the characters themselves.

1 hour ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Now coming back to your original post, our experience for the latest patch will be like this: Gorrick and Taimi will find a way for us to beat the demon which will then somehow restore the magic in the Jade and behold, we save Cantha. The end. 

But I disagree. I don't think it will end up being as simple as Gorrik makes it out to be and I believe that (while yes, this arc will probably put Cantha itself into a state of relative stability), that the creatures, themes, and character progression touched upon in the Gyala Delve arc will continue on into future story content where it can get its proper time, attention, and earned resolution.

When it comes to big-picture narrative in fantasy, "we saved the day, the end" is pretty box-standard. Of course it can be interesting when that's not the case, but for a game that has to keep putting out new story, it's practically a necessity. You have to finish what was started and win out the day eventually or the stakes set were never really that high to begin with. If you fail to save the world, the world ends. And if the world ends, how do you move on to something new afterward?

You can't have Infinity War without End Game: 

Spoiler

otherwise you just killed off half of everyone's favorite characters unceremoniously and your world became half as interesting.

How does Arenanet write a compelling story about the Asura, for example, when we as players know demons are wreaking havoc in Cantha and we're doing nothing about it?

That wouldn't make sense.

And I don't even think we're going to fully resolve everything, we'll just win the day on the things that only affect Cantha (which is necessary so that the story can focus on other parts of the world and lore moving forward).

The Commander's not just gonna go, "whoops, we failed to save Cantha...oh well," and then move on to the next arc. Players would hate that. Therefore, the story has to come to some form of stopping point/resolution that allows us to move on from it.

And I'm optimistic that it will be done organically and won't feel forced.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 5/11/2023 at 3:49 AM, mandala.8507 said:

-snip-

It sounds like you're just saying "the problem is the demon, not the fears the demon is inducing!"

And... we know this. The reason people are upset is because people wanted more of the fears the demon is inducing, they wanted that to be a bigger part of the next story arc, and by all indication thus far with the latest audio log, that aspect is nullified so all we get is a typical, return of Kanaxai from GW1. GW1 just had Kanaxai, no "fears the demon is inducing" subplot to it - not as experienced by the players. Which is a large part of why Kanaxai is actually far more boring than people give him credit. And unless something goes horribly wrong with Miss Perfect Asura's newest off-screen zero-development solution invention, we'll just be getting that repeat of GW1 Kanaxai with no fears.

And that's BORING.

And to use your paralleling example, if Batman Begins - or more accurately, if all Scarecrow was was just a dude in a scary mask, he's boring. In fact, almost every comic, animated tv show, or movie that involves Scarecrow has him be a chump that's quick and simple (and thus boring) to deal with whenever he lacks his fear gas. In other words, the fear is not the issue of the plot, it is what makes the issue of the plot interesting and entertaining to the audience.

On 5/11/2023 at 11:58 AM, mandala.8507 said:

That's what fractals are for.

And I'm sure we'll still be duking it out with the demon. We'll just be pressing a special action key or something while we do it. Not being able to brute force our way through every threat doesn't really bother me. Honestly, it'd be worse if that's all we did every time and the world's science and magic was just an afterthought when considering how to deal with each new threat to Tyria.

That's a bit of a silly cop-out excuse. There's nothing to say that the main story can avoid having technobabble instant solutions from our resident asura; such things do not need to be relegated to fractals and raids.

There was a post on reddit abotu this topic which highlighted it very well: Guild Wars 1 had a meriade of solutions for all of the problems that cropped up, from using the Bloodstone to seal Khilbron's soul to waiting for Shiro to gain a mortal body to kill him for good, to using the gods' blessing to finish Abaddon, and with the Great Destroyer the solution was invoking an ancient rite to turn the dwarves to stone while uniting various factions. Only once, War in Kryta, was the solution to the problem asura magitech. Every solution was unique to the situation.

Meanwhile with GW2's main story, the solution for every plot is "unite various factions and then use asura magitech or Aurene to solve the problem before beating the main badguy up after the plot's been stripped of urgency". Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Balthazar, Joko, Kralkatorrik, even Jormag+Primordus, and Dragonvoid were all solved by some asura's invention and/or Aurene, and "uniting the local factions".

It's a running theme that's been going on a bit too often, even for the more minor threats. The only main story villain who wasn't dealt with in this way was Scarlet, hilariously enough.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Randulf.7614]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It sounds like you're just saying "the problem is the demon, not the fears the demon is inducing!"

And... we know this. The reason people are upset is because people wanted more of the fears the demon is inducing, they wanted that to be a bigger part of the next story arc, and by all indication thus far with the latest audio log, that aspect is nullified so all we get is a typical, return of Kanaxai from GW1. GW1 just had Kanaxai, no "fears the demon is inducing" subplot to it - not as experienced by the players. Which is a large part of why Kanaxai is actually far more boring than people give him credit. And unless something goes horribly wrong with Miss Perfect Asura's newest off-screen zero-development solution invention, we'll just be getting that repeat of GW1 Kanaxai with no fears.

And that's BORING.

And to use your paralleling example, if Batman Begins - or more accurately, if all Scarecrow was was just a dude in a scary mask, he's boring. In fact, almost every comic, animated tv show, or movie that involves Scarecrow has him be a chump that's quick and simple (and thus boring) to deal with whenever he lacks his fear gas. In other words, the fear is not the issue of the plot, it is what makes the issue of the plot interesting and entertaining to the audience.

That's a bit of a silly cop-out excuse. There's nothing to say that the main story can avoid having technobabble instant solutions from our resident asura; such things do not need to be relegated to fractals and raids.

There was a post on reddit abotu this topic which highlighted it very well: Guild Wars 1 had a meriade of solutions for all of the problems that cropped up, from using the Bloodstone to seal Khilbron's soul to waiting for Shiro to gain a mortal body to kill him for good, to using the gods' blessing to finish Abaddon, and with the Great Destroyer the solution was invoking an ancient rite to turn the dwarves to stone while uniting various factions. Only once, War in Kryta, was the solution to the problem asura magitech. Every solution was unique to the situation.

Meanwhile with GW2's main story, the solution for every plot is "unite various factions and then use asura magitech or Aurene to solve the problem before beating the main badguy up after the plot's been stripped of urgency". Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Balthazar, Joko, Kralkatorrik, even Jormag+Primordus, and Dragonvoid were all solved by some asura's invention and/or Aurene, and "uniting the local factions".

It's a running theme that's been going on a bit too often, even for the more minor threats. The only main story villain who wasn't dealt with in this way was Scarlet, hilariously enough.

Don’t forget Jok….. oh

[mandala.8507]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It sounds like you're just saying "the problem is the demon, not the fears the demon is inducing!"

And... we know this.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying our emotions are not the root of the problem; that our feelings are valid and not a weakness that needs remedying.

I believe the Commander will some day benefit from coming to terms with their grief and loss, but I'm saying that that time doesn't have to be now and that our allies deciding to address the forces preying upon our feelings of grief and loss instead of the grief and loss itself is the more empathetic and expedient path toward solving this particular predicament.

And we don't even know if this is what will happen. We only know that it is currently plan A (according to Gorrik) to try to address the demon magic itself before we put the Commander into rehab, and I'm fine with that and think it fits the scale of this smaller Gyala Delve arc (which could lead into a larger arc dealing with all this stuff in greater scale and detail).

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

by all indication thus far with the latest audio log, that aspect is nullified so all we get is a typical, return of Kanaxai from GW1.

My reading of the blog post tells me we won't be dealing with Kanaxai after all. Kanaxai will be the fractal boss we deal with and the "capstone encounter" in the Delve in present-day Cantha will be a related phenomenon, but not Kanaxai as he was in Gw1.

I could be wrong, but that seems to be the direction they're going.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Miss Perfect Asura's

Your diction here explains sooo much.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And to use your paralleling example, if Batman Begins - or more accurately, if all Scarecrow was was just a dude in a scary mask, he's boring. In fact, almost every comic, animated tv show, or movie that involves Scarecrow has him be a chump that's quick and simple (and thus boring) to deal with whenever he lacks his fear gas. In other words, the fear is not the issue of the plot, it is what makes the issue of the plot interesting and entertaining to the audience.

See my first response to you here. This statement is based upon your misinterpretation of what I was saying.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

the fear is not the issue of the plot, it is what makes the issue of the plot interesting and entertaining to the audience.

And this sentence just doesn't compute for me with any possible interpretation of my intent in the original post. Please restructure or elaborate upon this, because I can't make any sense of it tbh.

I feel like you're trying to say "take away Scarecrow's fear gas and he's boring", but that's a retort an entirely galaxy removed from anything I've said in this thread.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That's a bit of a silly cop-out excuse. There's nothing to say that the main story can avoid having technobabble instant solutions from our resident asura; such things do not need to be relegated to fractals and raids.

Again, a retort to a point I wasn't in any universe making.

I'm saying they're doing a big boss battle in the fractal, so they don't necessarily have to do a "fantasy fashion" classic demon beatdown without the science stuff here, since we'll almost certainly be doing that in the upcoming fractal.

I've never really cared about this whole "anti-tech" complaint against Gw2. People who want the same old stale high-fantasy need to just get over it already or find a game/story that will appease their pickiness.

And at the end of the day, I do think we're still getting a classic fantasy demon fight, just with the aid of magitech so we don't have to spend 3 months on some person's couch in New Kaineng "processing" before we can do so.

Taimi's brilliance isn't a sore point for me, and I'm over pretending it's a complaint worth caring about.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

There was a post on reddit abotu this topic which highlighted it very well: Guild Wars 1 had a meriade of solutions for all of the problems that cropped up, from using the Bloodstone to seal Khilbron's soul to waiting for Shiro to gain a mortal body to kill him for good, to using the gods' blessing to finish Abaddon, and with the Great Destroyer the solution was invoking an ancient rite to turn the dwarves to stone while uniting various factions. Only once, War in Kryta, was the solution to the problem asura magitech. Every solution was unique to the situation.

Meanwhile with GW2's main story, the solution for every plot is "unite various factions and then use asura magitech or Aurene to solve the problem before beating the main badguy up after the plot's been stripped of urgency". Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Balthazar, Joko, Kralkatorrik, even Jormag+Primordus, and Dragonvoid were all solved by some asura's invention and/or Aurene, and "uniting the local factions".

...Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only person who's actually played Gw2. 😅

[anninke.7469]

On 5/11/2023 at 5:49 PM, mandala.8507 said:

I mean, I feel like we got off rather easy compared to some in our group.

Gorrik had to see his deceased brother stare at him menacingly and then attack him as a swarm of beetles, clawing away at him until he almost suffocated.

And Chul-Moo's crew has been biting him without warning like a pack of ravenous wolves attempting to drag him back down into the mine.

We'll get our turn to be comforted when we stop deflecting. And our friends were nice to us after we passed out. I felt like they cared, personally.

 I'd say "getting off rather easy" is... not a thing at all. I really doubt you can compare two persons deepest fears and say whose is worse. It's still the deepest fear whether it looks like your brother turning into a beetle-swarm  or a pink fluffy unicorn. 

I did not feel like they cared. I felt like they were concerned and somewhat scared but none of that necessarily means care. Especially when a few moments later they pretty much force us to be their problem solving tool regardless of the state we're apparently in. And later proceed to happily ignore us except our experience with the demon being part of their entry data. I admit I expected something like "Now that I've seen this sh..., I think I get how the Commander felt." Just that, one sentence. Insted we got "Now I have a trauma too, so we can shift focus on mine (and Chul-Moo's and gods-forbid we upset Yao) and forget yours."

Is it just me? Perhaps. Do I get it wrong? Might be the case. Are you the only one getting the GW2 story right? Oh, please...

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying our emotions are not the root of the problem; that our feelings are valid and not a weakness that needs remedying.

I believe the Commander will some day benefit from coming to terms with their grief and loss, but I'm saying that that time doesn't have to be now and that our allies deciding to address the forces preying upon our feelings of grief and loss instead of the grief and loss itself is the more empathetic and expedient path toward solving this particular predicament.

And we don't even know if this is what will happen. We only know that it is currently plan A (according to Gorrik) to try to address the demon magic itself before we put the Commander into rehab, and I'm fine with that and think it fits the scale of this smaller Gyala Delve arc (which could lead into a larger arc dealing with all this stuff in greater scale and detail).

Alright, but I don't think anyone was really wanting to expecting a remedy of the Commander's emotion or trauma. And that's not at all tied to the outcry that you're addressing. The outcry is all about ArenaNet negating that emotion's involvement in the next release through a handwaved, off-screen, instant solution. Or at least, that's exactly what the latest audio log tells us is going to happen.

And everyone and their mother seems hopeful that Plan A, as you call it, will fail spectatularly so that the Commander's emotions and trauma is present and explored, rather than handwaved away and bottled away for "the next time" it gets a 5 minute spotlight. The people upset wanted a long lasting focus on those emotions, because they are valid.

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

My reading of the blog post tells me we won't be dealing with Kanaxai after all. Kanaxai will be the fractal boss we deal with and the "capstone encounter" in the Delve in present-day Cantha will be a related phenomenon, but not Kanaxai as he was in Gw1.

I could be wrong, but that seems to be the direction they're going.

The blog reads that the Fractal will deal with Kanaxai's origins, while the main story focuses on Kanaxai in the present. The entire Gyala release has been "ooo spooky" while also shoving in our face "hey remember that guy from GW1?" with all the NPCs either completely unaware, or shouting at the unaware ones to "open a history book" (literally got nearly a dozen references to Kanaxai, and the events of GW1 with a wink wink nudge nudge that is practically palpable without ever actually name dropping Kanaxai).

The Ravenous Wanderer is either Kanaxai with utterly nonsensical "mystery" to it, or the largest asspull of subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations. The latter is never good.

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Your diction here explains sooo much.

It really doesn't, because I honestly defended Taimi for a long kitten time. But in this release, Gorrik LITERALLY called Taimi out as being an expert in every relevant field ("with Yao and Joon's jade tech knowledge, and Taimi's...everything knowledge..."). Originally she was just an expert on Scarlet and Ley-Lines. She became an expert on dragons because of necessity (born from Zojja and Gorr, our previous dragon experts, being written out or ignored). And constantly picked stuff up with every season.

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Again, a retort to a point I wasn't in any universe making.

I'm saying they're doing a big boss battle in the fractal, so they don't necessarily have to do a "fantasy fashion" classic demon beatdown without the science stuff here, since we'll almost certainly be doing that in the upcoming fractal.

Doing it in the fractal does not negate doing it or not in the main story. They're not the same - not the same plot, environment, or exposure of playerbase.

In fact, I'd argue it's more important to have a mixup of how to go about the solution in the main plot, rather than mixing it up for the side content that a much smaller playerbase would be exposed to.

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I've never really cared about this whole "anti-tech" complaint against Gw2. People who want the same old stale high-fantasy need to just get over it already or find a game/story that will appease their pickiness.

And at the end of the day, I do think we're still getting a classic fantasy demon fight, just with the aid of magitech so we don't have to spend 3 months on some person's couch in New Kaineng "processing" before we can do so.

Taimi's brilliance isn't a sore point for me, and I'm over pretending it's a complaint worth caring about.

Like above with Taimi, it didn't bother me either for a long time. And this isn't about "wanting the same old stale high-fantasy". It's about wanting different solutions and high-end plot directions rather than a rinse repeat with slight mix-up.

• Core game? Unite the Factions (Three Orders) and use the power of magi-science (Pact's tech born from the five races' knowledge) to slay the enemy (Zhaitan).
• Season 2/Heart of Thorns? Unite the Factions (five nations + Maguuma inhabitants) and use the power of magi-science (Rata Novus discovery) to slay the enemy (Mordremoth).
• Path of Fire? Unite the Factions (Joko's army) and use the power of dragon (aurene) to slay the enemy (balthazar). Slight mix-up here, good.
• Season 4 E1-3? Unite the Factions (Olmakhan, Krytans, Sylvari, Sunspears, Ghosties) and use the power of dragon (Aurene) to slay the enemy (Joko).
• Season 4 E4-6? Unite the Factions (Olmakhan, Sunspears, Free Awakened, Ghosties) and use the power of magi-science (Dragonsblood Spears, Ley-Line redirectors, Dredge Sonic tech) and dragon (Aurene) to slay the enemy (Kralkatorrik).

I'm sure I can stop there. And yes, this is high end so there's not much room for variations overall - it's like complaining the Hero's Journey is being used in 5 different stories. But Guild Wars 2, with the wide amount of high fantasy and science fantasy, can go beyond "unite the factions and use a mcguffin that might be tied to the factions to slay the big bad".

And to be clear: the first four times it was used, it didn't bother me.

It was when the formulae was used once again with Kralkatorrik, despite the super high raised stakes, that it began to bother me. And with IBS and EoD following that format yet again, the bothering just creeps.

Luckily, Gyala doesn't have that "unite the factions" preface, but this is the actual first time ever, we get a solution out of nowhere, from off-screen, no-Commander-involvement... And from Taimi. With a literal calling out with "Taimi's everything knowledge" (game's words, not mine). People whined about that stuff before... But to me, this is the actual first time it's there.

 

And when someone who's defended against people whining of things for years, saying it isn't there, agrees that this time yes it is there... That's an issue.

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

...Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only person who's actually played Gw2. 😅

To be fair, sometimes I wonder if you're playing the same game as anyone else. So you're not alone.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[mandala.8507]

3 minutes ago, anninke.7469 said:

I did not feel like they cared. I felt like they were concerned and somewhat scared but none of that necessarily means care. Especially when a few moments later they pretty much force us to be their problem solving tool regardless of the state we're apparently in. And later proceed to happily ignore us except our experience with the demon being part of their entry data. I admit I expected something like "Now that I've seen this sh..., I think I get how the Commander felt." Just that, one sentence. Insted we got "Now I have a trauma too, so we can shift focus on mine (and Chul-Moo's and gods-forbid we upset Yao) and forget yours."

As the legendary dragon slayer, god-killer, and parent of the one Elder Dragon, I try not to internalize whether or not my allies gave me the appropriate amount of consoling.

Them ignoring us (which they didn't even do; people need to go reread the dialogue from after they dragged us out of the mine) isn't a function of them not caring, it's due to the style of the logs. If anything, it doesn't include us just to save on voiced Commander dialogue, since there are so many variants of it.

I'm not really vibing with the whole "why doesn't the Commander get cookies and cuddles too?" thing, especially since our character is actively resisting any attempts from our allies to break down the wall so far.

13 minutes ago, anninke.7469 said:

 I'd say "getting off rather easy" is... not a thing at all. I really doubt you can compare two persons deepest fears and say whose is worse. It's still the deepest fear whether it looks like your brother turning into a beetle-swarm  or a pink fluffy unicorn. 

Yeah, I'm 100% going to say that seeing your deceased brother turn into a swarm of beetles and attack you is worse than seeing a pink fluffy unicorn. The pink fluffy unicorn people saying they need the same amount of attention are instantly on probation from the guild and their coolness cards are permanently revoked.

Never in a million years could the devs have predicted the prevailing backlash to the narrative for this episode was gonna be players feeling insecure about the lack of attention their character was receiving about their mental health.

It cracks me up just thinking about it, honestly. 🤣

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Originally she was just an expert on Scarlet and Ley-Lines. She became an expert on dragons because of necessity (born from Zojja and Gorr, our previous dragon experts, being written out or ignored). And constantly picked stuff up with every season.

Taimi was Zojja's apprentice. You do the math.

 

22 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Gorrik LITERALLY called Taimi out as being an expert in every relevant field ("with Yao and Joon's jade tech knowledge, and Taimi's...everything knowledge...").

I'll repeat my response to you from another thread here:

Quote

In the Gorrik logs, we're seeing Taimi through his lens. He sees her as being great at everything becomes he's in love with her, not because she's actually perfect in everyway. She simply is that to Gorrik.

Read the room, people.

The author's intent is to show how enamored Gorrik is, not to comment on Taimi's actual expertise.

38 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To be fair, sometimes I wonder if you're playing the same game as anyone else. So you're not alone.

"They are five steps from realizing: I am ten steps ahead." Not that it matters. 😔

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Taimi was Zojja's apprentice. You do the math.

Nope. Taimi was Zojja's ward. Not apprentice.

11 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I'll repeat my response to you from another thread here:

The author's intent is to show how enamored Gorrik is, not to comment on Taimi's actual expertise.

The tone conveyed zero emotion of being enamored to me. And, it seems, to anyone else. If this was the intent, then the director for voice overs failed spectacularly in telling Ike how to deliver that line.

11 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

"They are five steps from realizing: I am ten steps ahead." Not that it matters. 😔

Quite the horse you got there. Very tall.

[mandala.8507]

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The tone conveyed zero emotion of being enamored to me. And, it seems, to anyone else. If this was the intent, then the director for voice overs failed spectacularly in telling Ike how to deliver that line.

You're so entirely incorrect here. Disparaging people who are doing a fine job because you can't get a clue makes me feel such crazy second-hand embarrassment.

[mandala.8507]

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Quite the horse you got there. Very tall.

 What is this "horse" you speak of? I'm quite sure I have no tall thing with such a name in my possession. And if I did have said "horse" in my possession, I'm certain it would be of a height quite proportional to my own stature, thank you very much. 🐴

[mandala.8507]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Nope. Taimi was Zojja's ward. Not apprentice.

I'm glad it only ever takes me a few seconds to find the dialogue to refute you.

From "After the Battle" in Living World Season 1:

Quote

Braham Eirsson: Did you get in trouble for roaming the camp?

Taimi: No. Yes. Zojja gave me extra calculations as a punishment, and I never got to see Scarlet.

Braham Eirsson: Sounds like Zojja cares about you.

Taimi: No, she doesn't. She cares about her record. If I do well, it reflects positively on her as my college mentor.

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

None of my characters are the Commander so I don't care. They would have done so much differently from how the Commander did things in the story that I'm completely disconnected from the story. I had a little hope the demon thing would have been a proper story shake up but it seems like we're back to asspull magitech solutions again (and this is coming from someone who does like the magitech themes in GW2).

Good thing most everything else about the game is to my liking, at least.

Edited May 13, 2023 by TheOrlyFactor.8341