Time to talk about gun flame in WvW?

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 5/12/2023 at 7:00 AM, Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341 said:

There does seem to be an increase of bezerker gun flame builds in WvW lately.

I am not calling for the coefficient to be reduced, but I think maybe something like the following should happen;

1) The long-standing bug (see below) should be addressed, it should be able to be reflected. 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gun_Flame

If reflected back, won't do any damage to the caster after travelling total of maximum range even when hit by it.

2) The range should be reduced to 900 instead of 1500. 

3) The velocity of the projectile should be decreased by atleast 50 percent. 

What do you think? Should it be left untouched?

So, I'm first going to address the OP since the discussion is in good faith. Number one, I will challenge the wiki's assertion that it "doesn't do any damage" if reflected. I've shot myself multiple times with Gun Flame. Multiple. Granted it's less than I dished out, but still.

Number two. Nope. A rifle warrior within 900 range is pretty much toast since the build carries almost no defenses (gear, skills and traits) and has to maximize the rifle's damage as much as possible since the rifle itself (minus Gun Flame) is really weak. Make it 1200.

Three. I can somewhat see a case for that. But, make it 10.

Now, I'm going to address the so-called "one trick pony". People need to realize that this is a risky build for warriors to play. Warrior is basically no different than a cloth profession here. As I said above, rifle warrior carries almost no defenses. It has to since rifle is weak. Right off the bat, the warrior unblockable (Signet of Might) is mandatory to even punch through all that Aegis and boon fiesta. Also, I should point out that Gun Flame damage has not changed since 2016.  Why NOW do people complain? Could it be that warriors are changing up their game and that it's....effective?!

Knowing this in the context of wvw, I ask myself: what groups would fall to it? I can think of two groups.

• People that get caught out of position from their squad. (eg. they chase...)
• People in the squad that stack like sardines.

 

[Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341]

11 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

So, I'm first going to address the OP since the discussion is in good faith. Number one, I will challenge the wiki's assertion that it "doesn't do any damage" if reflected. I've shot myself multiple times with Gun Flame. Multiple. Granted it's less than I dished out, but still.

Number two. Nope. A rifle warrior within 900 range is pretty much toast since the build carries almost no defenses (gear, skills and traits) and has to maximize the rifle's damage as much as possible since the rifle itself (minus Gun Flame) is really weak. Make it 1200.

Three. I can somewhat see a case for that. But, make it 10.

Now, I'm going to address the so-called "one trick pony". People need to realize that this is a risky build for warriors to play. Warrior is basically no different than a cloth profession here. As I said above, rifle warrior carries almost no defenses. It has to since rifle is weak. Right off the bat, the warrior unblockable (Signet of Might) is mandatory to even punch through all that Aegis and boon fiesta. Also, I should point out that Gun Flame damage has not changed since 2016.  Why NOW do people complain? Could it be that warriors are changing up their game and that it's....effective?!

Knowing this in the context of wvw, I ask myself: what groups would fall to it? I can think of two groups.

• People that get caught out of position from their squad. (eg. they chase...)
• People in the squad that stack like sardines.

 

As far as I understand, a reflected gun-flame shot will not do any damage to the one who made the shot in-line with what wiki claims.
 

With regards points 2 and 3, that's why I made this thread, I only suggested possible avenues, and am aiming for a wider discussion, but I think some kind of change to the distance and/or the velocity might be a trade off to keep the co-efficient which I have not advocated be changed. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341 said:

As far as I understand, a reflected gun-flame shot will not do any damage to the one who made the shot in-line with what wiki claims.
 

With regards points 2 and 3, that's why I made this thread, I only suggested possible avenues, and am aiming for a wider discussion, but I think some kind of change to the distance and/or the velocity might be a trade off to keep the co-efficient which I have not advocated be changed. 

Once gunflame travels 1500 total distance, including reflected distance, it will do no damage. So long as the zerker is 750.5 range away the reflected gunflame will not damage them upon reflection across that same distance.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Once gunflame travels 1500 total distance, including reflected distance, it will do no damage. So long as the zerker is 750.5 range away the reflected gunflame will not damage them upon reflection across that same distance.

This is why I like the forums, there are still a lot of things to figure out. Twisted but could see this making sense.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

This is why I like the forums, there are still a lot of things to figure out. Twisted but could see this making sense.

That is how the bug works. You need to be close to the Berserker for that reflected Gunflame to not end up traveling beyond the total maximum distance.

[Luranni.9470]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Once gunflame travels 1500 total distance, including reflected distance, it will do no damage. So long as the zerker is 750.5 range away the reflected gunflame will not damage them upon reflection across that same distance.

We tested at all distances but I couldnt be arsed to put it all in :P.  Even if I daggerstormed up his nostrils there would be no reflected damage and nothing in combat log at all. 

EDIT: Sadly the up-the-nostril bit is cut off, but here's a much closer range one.

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Luranni.9470

[supreme.3602]

I just wanna post this here for the sake of it:

 

[Xenesis.6389]

Yeah but they died as soon as they got those people downed from the one shot, the camera was just cut right before it happened.

It's fine, nothing to see here.

😏🍿

[TheGrimm.5624]

11 hours ago, Luranni.9470 said:

We tested at all distances but I couldnt be arsed to put it all in :P.  Even if I daggerstormed up his nostrils there would be no reflected damage and nothing in combat log at all. 

EDIT: Sadly the up-the-nostril bit is cut off, but here's a much closer range one.

 

As one that enjoys your musicals, after seeing the WAR videos, will have send a WAAAGH! your way from this old Choppa. Till the last day till, till the last hour, till the last minute, till the last second, we fought. And it was good.

[Luranni.9470]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

As one that enjoys your musicals, after seeing the WAR videos, will have send a WAAAGH! your way from this old Choppa. Till the last day till, till the last hour, till the last minute, till the last second, we fought. And it was good.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111oneoneone.

[dead.7638]

You could shave a quarter of the dmg off and still one shot someone.   If not more that’s being generous.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

53 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

You could shave a quarter of the dmg off and still one shot someone.   If not more that’s being generous.

It's a good thing that there are stats combos that will halve the damage then isn't it, along with perma prot and damage reduction food to reduce it further.

[playerplayercantyoutell.9675]

 

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's a good thing that there are stats combos that will halve the damage then isn't it, along with perma prot and damage reduction food to reduce it further.

Therefore there should be more one shot skills on every class.

Anet please reverse the feb 2020 patch and buff the appropriate long range weapons, engineer one shot mortars would be the bomb. 👏

Thank you.

🤭🍿

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Therefore there should be more one shot skills on every class.

There are tank builds and gank builds. You can build to counter some but not all. All those montages are glass hitting glass. Those same people probably have footage of those gunflames doing 4k on a crit on some people with the same build.

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Anet please reverse the feb 2020 patch and buff the appropriate long range weapons, engineer one shot mortars would be the bomb. 👏

Thank you.

🤭🍿

Well, Cele wouldn't be a problem anymore then now would it? 💯 would be more fun.

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Well, Cele wouldn't be a problem anymore then now would it? 💯 would be more fun.

It wasn't a problem until they added concentration and expertise to it. which wasn't in the feb 2020 patch but a year later. 🤷‍♂️🍿

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

44 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

It wasn't a problem until they added concentration and expertise to it. which wasn't in the feb 2020 patch but a year later. 🤷‍♂️🍿

I still don't think it's a problem, but then I'm gunflaming the cele roamers so...

[Xenesis.6389]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I still don't think it's a problem, but then I'm gunflaming the cele roamers so...

Of course you wouldn't, running the only spec that one shots everyone including cele, much like the one shot backstabbing thieves for so many years. 🙄

But... we were also told that gunflamers had a "problem of dying" right after they take people down, is that not true? 🤭🍿

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Of course you wouldn't, running the only spec that one shots everyone including cele, much like the one shot backstabbing thieves for so many years. 🙄

But... we were also told that gunflamers had a "problem of dying" right after they take people down, is that not true? 🤭🍿

It's like sicem sniper. You screw up, you die.

[Xenesis.6389]

41 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's like sicem sniper. You screw up, you die.

Oh huh, at least you get a chance to screw up before you die, the people facing one shots, not so much.  🤭🍿

[JTGuevara.9018]

4 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

It wasn't a problem until they added concentration and expertise to it. which wasn't in the feb 2020 patch but a year later. 🤷‍♂️🍿

You mean the stats that actually made celestial useful in the first place.

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I still don't think it's a problem, but then I'm gunflaming the cele roamers so...

Exactly. Boon fiesta is the problem. And that mostly does NOT come from celestial gear but elite specs and recent boon-focused patches. The scapegoating of dire gear merely just shifted to celestial. Gahhh! I love peoples' selective memories!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

You mean the stats that actually made celestial useful in the first place.

Exactly. Boon fiesta is the problem. And that mostly does NOT come from celestial gear but elite specs and recent boon-focused patches. The scapegoating of dire gear merely just shifted to celestial. Gahhh! I love peoples' selective memories!

They scapegoat stats when they cant kill something and then scapegoat skills when they refuse to take the stats that keep them from dying. They refuse to acknowledge the ecosystem that is there.

[Xenesis.6389]

14 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

You mean the stats that actually made celestial useful in the first place.

Exactly. Boon fiesta is the problem. And that mostly does NOT come from celestial gear but elite specs and recent boon-focused patches. The scapegoating of dire gear merely just shifted to celestial. Gahhh! I love peoples' selective memories!

Not like I'm one of the top complainers about boon spam or anything. 🤭

9 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They scapegoat stats when they cant kill something and then scapegoat skills when they refuse to take the stats that keep them from dying. They refuse to acknowledge the ecosystem that is there.

Yeah but they can't even take stats to keep them from dying from one shots. Well I suppose they could, to get a smaller chance of not dying, in exchange to hit like a wet noodle with minstrel. 🤭

Weeeeee this merrigoround is fuuuuun! 🎠🍿

 

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 5/24/2023 at 8:43 AM, Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341 said:

As far as I understand, a reflected gun-flame shot will not do any damage to the one who made the shot in-line with what wiki claims.
 

With regards points 2 and 3, that's why I made this thread, I only suggested possible avenues, and am aiming for a wider discussion, but I think some kind of change to the distance and/or the velocity might be a trade off to keep the co-efficient which I have not advocated be changed. 

I suppose one thing you can add is a telegraphed animation or warrior icon above the target's head (about 0.25 seconds). In that way, people wouldn't be completely blindsided. Sort of like deadeye.

 

19 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They scapegoat stats when they cant kill something and then scapegoat skills when they refuse to take the stats that keep them from dying. They refuse to acknowledge the ecosystem that is there.

Reminds me of elementalist Meteor Shower nerfs!

Edited May 26, 2023 by JTGuevara.9018
quoting fix

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Yeah but they can't even take stats to keep them from dying from one shots. Well I suppose they could, to get a smaller chance of not dying, in exchange to hit like a wet noodle with minstrel. 🤭

I can run Sentinel stats, facetank that kind of burst, and still hit for 8k on an Eviscerate.