Are thieves a problem?

[Flowki.7194]

The thief can attack any player, and if it becomes obvious the player is better than the thief, he runs away. Ofc there is a learning curve for the thief to get to that point, but once there, it is the very definition of low risk high reward (for the thief at-least). The thief is useless 90% of the time around players who know to pressure him out. So then the thief just pops up to +1, or to 1v1 a class that cannot counter it, or a player of lesser skill. The thief is for the most part, is a negative to have on your team, and annoying for the other team. I have played with some good thiefs, im not knocking the skill involved, but typically thieves suck, and are dead weight, or they are good, and are just toxicly not fun to fight. Virt mesmer and spellbreaker are similar, they are just obnoxious to fight, irregardless of meta, skill or any of that.

 

 

 

[Swagg.9236]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

😭 Oh kitten me

I didn't know you felt so strongly about this

Ah, that's right, Thief is definitely the face of GW2; definitely not Guardian / Elementalist / [Flavor of the Patch Note Buffs].  GW2 was always a little too shallow to support more than the four or so classes that ultimately do everything that the game features.  Thief has always been an outsider to the core designs, and it never consistently held onto the one gimmick that allowed it to, at the very least, unfairly waste the time of the core designs in PvP (which, for the longest time, was its only unique ability).  For goodness' sake, the bomb section of the mole fractal during which everyone always swapped in a thief ended up getting a STEALTH DISPENSER lmao.  Thief is worthless.  It's replaced by environmental assets in PvE; it's relegated to annoyance-tier (i.e. "Watch me not even play the real game for 10 minutes") in PvP.

 

[Frequency.6407]

Nerft or change stealth and give thief more life to compensate.

[Bunbury.8472]

On 5/24/2023 at 7:15 AM, Frequency.6407 said:

Nerft or change stealth and give thief more life to compensate.

all skills with damage should reveal on cast. apply change to game then buff thief accordingly, I expect cooldowns on utility skills will have to come down etc.

 

it's the easiest fix for stealth, and even solves the thread complaining about moa, cos casting moa would reveal you- so no more stealth moas. all the unavoidable stealth openings would be something you could now counter play. awesome, great change.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Bunbury.8472

[Eddie.9143]

nope, stealth is a problem, and it'll never be balanced to foooking disappear. lol

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Eddie.9143 said:

nope, stealth is a problem, and it'll never be balanced to foooking disappear. lol

[Rework stealth and buff thief healing/damage/mitigation/cooldowns to compensate (11k hp class with no defense needs defense, see guard and ele) then come right back to the forums with concerns about initiative when supercharged thieves that dont need to leave you alone via stealth start obliterating you] speedrun any%

Edited May 23, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Eddie.9143]

2 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

[Rework stealth and buff thief healing/damage/mitigation/cooldowns to compensate (11k hp class with no defense needs defense, see guard and ele) then come right back to the forums with concerns about initiative when supercharged thieves that dont need to leave you alone via stealth start obliterating you] speedrun any%

well fur sure, if stealth is gone they need a full redesign so they don't flop immediately, but thieves already have enough mobility to almost always disengage and live

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 minutes ago, Eddie.9143 said:

well fur sure, if stealth is gone they need a full redesign so they don't flop immediately,

As long as people realize the class will need a redesign to accomplish this, and that said redesign will be more aggressive than the current iteration of thief (less stealth means more button press) and probably reside on the shoulders of thief mains that have to relearn their whole flowchart for like... the 10th time. 

Whatever makes the game healthier. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Eddie.9143]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

As long as people realize the class will need a redesign to accomplish this, and that said redesign will be more aggressive than the current iteration of thief (less stealth means more button press) and probably reside on the shoulders of thief mains that have to relearn their whole flowchart for like... the 10th time. 

Whatever makes the game healthier. 

redesign stealth so that it breaks target but u see a small shadow on the floor where they are, but they take 75% reduced damage while in stealth 

[Swagg.9236]

You can't really remove or totally redesign stealth without doing one of two things:

1)  Thief stops existing because its dumb gimmick was rightfully nuked.

2)  Thief, in order to compensate it for the loss of its marketing gimmick crutch, effectively just becomes Grey Guardian/Grey Weaver, thus adding even MORE bloat to this game.

You aren't going to get the current GW2 staff to actually design a proper niche for Thief when this game barely tolerates the existence of four (4) PvP """roles""" (extra quotations because the ones that the streamers made up for this game are so hysterically forced that their respective role individualities are only a half-step down from recolored sprites).  GW2 is too shallow; it doesn't fairly present most information in PvP engagements (even when stealth isn't involved); it too quickly bottlenecks all of its options through an extremely and oppressively narrow filter that forces the game to obey the laws of patch notes rather than player innovation and creativity.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Even as a power Mesmer player I would be for making it so that using offensive skills would reveal you (Thief stealth attacks would obviously be an exception). It would require compensating D/P thief and certain other specs of course.

And they are obviously never going to do it

Edited May 23, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[senftube.6081]

19 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

The GW2 Thief's design problem has always fundamentally been the reality that a bunch of marketing airheads wanted to add the WoW Rogue to attract that crowd to GW2; however, they couldn't just call it that because legal issues maybe or something.  Therefore, they more or less made a marketing gimmick rather than a class; and that gimmick hinges entirely on a very low-information interaction skewed in the extreme toward passivity and time-wasting rather than active engagement and gamesense judgement.  Thief isn't a class; it's a marketing tool.  That's why it's not fun to play against it, and why power creep has left it in the dust.  It has no real role; it is just a very leaky container for what is likely the most busted gimmick in the game.  "Steal" is not it's "class mechanic." Stealth is; and stealth is not fun.

 Thief is a marketing tool? Oh wonder that's why it is one of the least played class in the game. 🤡

[Terrorhuz.4695]

I'd need to check this again but I'm... 70% sure stealthed players can still move grass while in stealth, so you can sort-of pin their location.

Now, that of course is still problematic since conquest maps don't have that much grass to begin with (and almost none have any on nodes). As surprisingly as it might sound, the main take here is what to do when there's a gw2 problem, which appears to be *ahem* touching grass.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 5/20/2023 at 6:24 PM, Deadmoose.6594 said:

How do you counter a thief? <...> impossible to kill.

By start playing Conquest and stop imagining SPvP as 5 duels in a Trench coat. Play defensive and pressure the thief off the Point if he even dares to uncap with a player around. Unlike a Virtuoso or Warrior a thief can't pressure people off points and start capping. Thief fails to kill you = thief lost even if he survives. Thief got fancy, did reset multiple times on you and besides you fighting for survival he eventually killed you? Probably took a while thief still lost.
Little reminder how points work:

• 1 point is gained every 2 seconds per location captured
• 5 points are awarded for each player kill

Same is true for Mesmer. if you "outplay" a Warrior for 44 seconds on far and kill him, you didn't win in this scenario. Respawn time is only 15 seconds. Its not like you can hold the point against the warrior without killing him if he comes back. A lot of anti thief measures are also anti mesmer measures. You probably could get a lot of millage if you make a mental note when people deal with your burst, your stealth and waste you time on side nodes while denying you the point.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Imagine thinking teefs will need compensation for losing stealth lol. They'll jump on evade spam in a heartbeat when stealth gets removed.
They may need rework for SA, few other traits and skills and that's about it, oh and rework stealth from finishers, but compensation beyond that? KEK

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

No matter what balance changes happen, if you don't understand how thieves fight you will consistently lose to them. 

Namaste 🙏

Edited May 24, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[senftube.6081]

For me it stands that Block block invul invul block block Meta is much more kitten than stealth ever was.

[Bazsi.2734]

On 5/24/2023 at 8:25 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Imagine thinking teefs will need compensation for losing stealth lol. They'll jump on evade spam in a heartbeat when stealth gets removed.
They may need rework for SA, few other traits and skills and that's about it, oh and rework stealth from finishers, but compensation beyond that? KEK

Evade spam was viable once. It was utter kitten, it was like signet virtuoso is now except also contesting the node. Got nerfed for a reason. A thief surviving without stealth just isn't (and shouldn't) be a thing, because it can only be e-frames or insane teleportspam.
You guys would be ragequitting this game if you got what you wanted: thieves being able to fight and survive without stealth. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Bazsi.2734

[Swagg.9236]

On 5/24/2023 at 5:02 AM, senftube.6081 said:

 Thief is a marketing tool? Oh wonder that's why it is one of the least played class in the game. 🤡

Thief exists to feature stealth.  Stealth, by virtue of how poorly it has been implemented, is almost certainly more of a marketing gimmick than a significant, holistic, game-design decision built into a cohesive environment of interacting elements (otherwise we'd likely have a universal means of mitigating or taking advantage of it regardless of which class or build encounters it).  Steal is not really a core class mechanic, which is why it ended up carried by trait bloat; it's also why people value it more as a long-range, freebie teleport than the actual "steal" gimmick (otherwise why make such a huge stink over the Daredevil half range steal change?).  By association, Thief is a marketing gimmick.  It's a very bad and destructive marketing gimmick, but it's a marketing gimmick.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Swagg.9236

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

5 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Evade spam was viable once. It was utter kitten, it was like signet virtuoso is now except also contesting the node. Got nerfed for a reason. A thief surviving without stealth just isn't (and shouldn't) be a thing, because it can only be e-frames or insane teleportspam.
You guys would be ragequitting this game if you got what you wanted: thieves being able to fight and survive without stealth. 

Wow, imagine having opportunity window to fight back against teefs? Possiblen't!
Just because something isn't busted, doesn't mean it won't be viable, it just means everything else needs kitten nerfs.
As if teefs aren't already kitten e-frames or insane teleports, come on dude, you can't be that biased...

[Burnfall.9573]

3 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Thief exists to feature stealth.  Stealth, by virtue of how poorly it has been implemented, is almost certainly more of a marketing gimmick than a significant, holistic, game-design decision built into a cohesive environment of interacting elements (otherwise we'd likely have a universal means of mitigating or taking advantage of it regardless of which class or build encounters it).  Steal is not really a core class mechanic, which is why it ended up carried by trait bloat; it's also why people value it more as a long-range, freebie teleport than the actual "steal" gimmick (otherwise why make such a huge stink over the Daredevil half range steal change?).  By association, Thief is a marketing gimmick.  It's a very bad and destructive marketing gimmick, but it's a marketing gimmick.

While Anet continues its destructive marketing path, new mmo games are being born and ready to take their first step into the mmo gaming industry. To make a clear statement that, "Legends are not born they are created"

The goal of a Legend is to win the players  experience.

"You Get To Decide The Legacy That You Leave"

Edited May 26, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Bazsi.2734]

12 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Wow, imagine having opportunity window to fight back against teefs? Possiblen't!
Just because something isn't busted, doesn't mean it won't be viable, it just means everything else needs kitten nerfs.
As if teefs aren't already kitten e-frames or insane teleports, come on dude, you can't be that biased...

So your solution is to just rip stealth out of the game somehow with minimal reworks,  and then nerf everything else until thief isn't complete garbage? That sounds like an awful lot of work just to eliminate a playstyle and to make your game more uniform, boring and bland.
Not to mention you did not suggest what most of the things interacting with the stealth system would do. What happens if I blast a smokefield? What would mesmer/ranger/engineer stealth skills do? What would replace the stealth attacks on thief?

Also about me being biased... are you serious? 😄 Something about throwing stones in glass houses comes to mind.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

11 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

So your solution is to just rip stealth out of the game somehow with minimal reworks,  and then nerf everything else until thief isn't complete garbage? That sounds like an awful lot of work just to eliminate a playstyle and to make your game more uniform, boring and bland.
Not to mention you did not suggest what most of the things interacting with the stealth system would do. What happens if I blast a smokefield? What would mesmer/ranger/engineer stealth skills do? What would replace the stealth attacks on thief?

Also about me being biased... are you serious? 😄 Something about throwing stones in glass houses comes to mind.

This game engine can't work with stealth at all, you can get hit without even being rendered on enemy screen, much skill there.
Hello? A-net could have avoided all that if they wouldn't kitten powercreep everything into oblivion since HoT release, they've made that problem, they have to fix that problem.
How about converting smoke field into dark fields as it should be from the start of game? No? Then how about applying AoE blind in wider radius than smokefield itself? Or maybe even give it special "Aura" that prevents you from being targetted (not invuln, evade garbage, just makes you unable to be picked as a target to hit for like 2s)? A lot of options there if you think for 0.5s. For Mesmer you can just make it untargatable for x seconds, same goes for ranger and engi.
Once again you can just look how Mirage works, it's "sneak" attack is given by what? You could use different trigger for it, like Smoke Aura or it could only be viable if you attack through smoke fields.

Well, you play teef, you defend stealth even though it's one of most unbalanced mechanics in game without real counters and you claim you're not biased? Wow.

[Bazsi.2734]

On 4/6/2023 at 5:32 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

So just delete stealth and teef and game will be 100x better? I agree. Finally someone wrote facts here, I'm so proud of you that you finally witnessed the truth of balance. After deletion of these 2 we can move to balance rest of bs in the game as per protocol and this won't require deletion but functional changes and tweaks.

On 5/3/2023 at 2:43 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

If it can't be fixed then remove it, what's wrong with that? Oh right, it would force others to actually play game instead of abusing unbalanced gimmicks, how could someone expect that? F
Also I really like how you wrote comment based on title solely, impressive feat. :')

On 3/16/2023 at 7:07 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

What's wrong with removing the most toxic class/mechanic from the game? I only see benefits.

On 2/4/2023 at 8:50 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Sadly teef wasn't deleted from game, but I'll take that small nerf.

On 2/2/2023 at 6:34 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Finally some good balance proposal. It's been 10 years sicne I saw something that great.
Surprisingly if you removed boons, conditions and stealth, the game suddenly would become 10x more healthier.

Man, looking up your activity changed things. These could be ironic jokes but... I scroll back months and the act does not change. It's either all just jokes which means there is obviously nothing to engage with... Or it's way worse because it's serious.
In which case I can dismiss all of this by pointing out that GW2 is a themepark MMO, and themeparks need every bit of diversity they can get. You wanting to delete half of the game(boons, conditions and stealth) is obviously not... it's not the best take.(I'm trying so hard not to get <REDACTED>)

I think it's the first one, but that might just me being dumb having faith in humanity. Anyways, keep up the good work!

Edited May 26, 2023 by Bazsi.2734

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

3 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Man, looking up your activity changed things. These could be ironic jokes but... I scroll back months and the act does not change. It's either all just jokes which means there is obviously nothing to engage with... Or it's way worse because it's serious.
In which case I can dismiss all of this by pointing out that GW2 is a themepark MMO, and themeparks need every bit of diversity they can get. You wanting to delete half of the game(boons, conditions and stealth) is obviously not... it's not the best take.(I'm trying so hard not to get <REDACTED>)

I think it's the first one, but that might just me being dumb having faith in humanity. Anyways, keep up the good work!

You could always try to be honest and admit that you run out of logical arguments long ago instead of just pretending to be smart by digging through someones chat history for your dismissal "arguments".
Boons, conditions and stealth are poorly implemented and balanced mechanics in this game. Not mentioning the sheer amount of pure powercreep thanks to expansions elite specializations that turned them up by too much, now EoD added more to it with mobility on top. Stealth doesn't work in this game engine at all, 100% invisibility that can be stacked into infinity is pure trash to fight against and combine it with high mobility/teleports or other dumb mechanics and you have uncontrollable gibberish. 
Diversity is fine, unbalanced one is not and we have the latter.
People always will defend ez mode that carries them all the kitten time, doesn't matter what class they abuse.