sword and lb need CC

[felix.2386]

seriously

[Zuko.7132]

1 hour ago, felix.2386 said:

seriously

sword 2 could definitely stand to immob for 1 second, but the more important part is fixing the animation jank.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I think the issue is that the CC that sword and LB do inflict (immobilize) is so hard to land.  The root and melee range of Flurry makes it very hard to land vs moving targets.  And LB5 has a 3/4s cast time and a long CD, so it is both difficult to land and it hurts your set up when you miss.

Contrast this with Ranger LB4, which is a knockback on a 1/2s cast with a very fast projectile.  Or Ranger SB4, which is and instant cast cripple/immobilize, or SB5, which is a daze/stun with 1/4s cast. It's a night and day difference in terms of ease of use and reliability compared to Warrior's weapons.

Warrior's weapons just play by a different (and far, far worse) set of rules than those of other professions.

[felix.2386]

immob isn't real cc, doesn't stop people from casting skill, resing, stomping.

nor does it kill defiance bar.

lb needs at least the 3 to be a CC.

sword could be 3 too.

Edited May 22, 2023 by felix.2386

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Imob is stronger then hard cc in Wvw. 

The common player has Stunbreaks on their build but condi cleanse not so much. 

You will notice immediately that you are hard cced but a single icon on the chaos that is the buff bar? 

Add the fact that 1 second of not moving in Wvw = death. 

 

But true. The Imob on sword and lb is kitten. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Anet put a daze on LB4 in PvE. Perhaps they should add it in in PvP/WvW. Would give SpB another ranged immob via no escape.

[EphemeralWallaby.7643]

9 hours ago, Zuko.7132 said:

sword 2 could definitely stand to immob for 1 second, but the more important part is fixing the animation jank.

I think that's the intention of Leg Specialist trait in Tactics.  Small prob is w/ a 5 sec icd it likely was already used either on aa3 or sw4 (my experience, anyways)... a different oh weapon would allow it to land a lot more regularly for sw2, though.

Lack of an interrupt w/ sword is one reason why I slot stomp when using sw.  Becomes too useful as interrupt, stun break, or even condi cleanse when stomping banner's light field.  I also leverage MMR in Strength for the extra dodging gives.  Not sure how well that translates to WvW though.

~EpWa

Edited May 22, 2023 by EphemeralWallaby.7643

[felix.2386]

5 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Imob is stronger then hard cc in Wvw. 

The common player has Stunbreaks on their build but condi cleanse not so much. 

You will notice immediately that you are hard cced but a single icon on the chaos that is the buff bar? 

Add the fact that 1 second of not moving in Wvw = death. 

 

But true. The Imob on sword and lb is kitten. 

yea you sure about that because all i see are runes of antitoxin everywhere with sigil of cleansing that cleanses 3 condi because it's WvW.

unless you trying to imply people just doing wvw with pve builds

Edited May 22, 2023 by felix.2386

[JTGuevara.9018]

20 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

immob isn't real cc

Except for...ya know...the immobilizing part...

[felix.2386]

2 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Except for...ya know...the immobilizing part...

it's a soft cc that does not stop enemy actions nor break defiance bar

[The Boz.2038]

4 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

it's a soft cc that does not stop enemy actions nor break defiance bar

...it literally does do defiance bar damage, 50/s.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Felix wants a hard CC on sword somewhere. Clear?

fwiw I think so too.

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Felix wants a hard CC on sword somewhere. Clear?

Wanting something and stating facts are two different things.

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

fwiw I think so too.

Why? Which one? Where would you put it?

[prototypedragon.1406]

A flip over skill on offhand sword could work after being hit while channeling  riposte and change riposte  and have a knockdown instead of the bleed.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Wanting something and stating facts are two different things.

I don't disagree, but sometimes someone needs to clear things up to move the conversation along.

7 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Why? Which one? Where would you put it?

Personally, on a new F2 as a PBAoE knockdown called Griphon's Sweep (GW1 callback).

Knowing that a new F2 probably isn't going to happen...
I'd make Riposte to the PBAoE knockdown after the block while reworking the mechanics of the skill to function like other skills. A stun instead of a knockdown would be stronger as there are more trait synergies.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[felix.2386]

the CC on LB4 can be reliable as blind in pve is also pretty useless.

but in pvp, blind is pretty good, so CC is actually more suitable to be in 3.

but yea, 3 is pretty much a garbage skill at this point, no matter the game mode. CC on 4 of course would be better, but on 3 is more reasonable

for sword tho, i'd put on final thrust. it can bring up it's usefulness above 50%.

Edited May 25, 2023 by felix.2386

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

the CC on LB4 can be reliable as blind in pve is also pretty useless.

but in pvp, blind is pretty good, so CC is actually more suitable to be in 3.

but yea, 3 is pretty much a garbage skill at this point, no matter the game mode. CC on 4 of course would be better, but on 3 is more reasonable

for sword tho, i'd put on final thrust. it can bring up it's usefulness above 50%.

Putting a 1.5-2s daze on LB3 could be very good, kinda like thief's SB4.  Would need its ammo count adjusted though.

Edited May 25, 2023 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[GoingMenthol.7281]

I'd appreciate a CC on longbow's F1 so it can be useful for spellbreaker, even if it was 1/4 seconds. I've been looking around for non-Berserker builds for longbow and the only decent one was called the "Chinese Longbow" for WvW but I haven't found anything for PvE

[EphemeralWallaby.7643]

15 hours ago, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

I'd appreciate a CC on longbow's F1 so it can be useful for spellbreaker, even if it was 1/4 seconds. I've been looking around for non-Berserker builds for longbow and the only decent one was called the "Chinese Longbow" for WvW but I haven't found anything for PvE

I can't speak to tried-and-true builds since I tend to ignore those and figure my own stuff out (and feel proud of myself when I discover something people have been using all along)... but if I were to cobble a non-berserker PvE longbow build, I think I'd start by chasing quickness, as I find the LB too clunky-slow for my tastes... and I'd be tempted to do something that generates a lot of might due to the hybrid-ish nature of the LB... so probably Strength (3,2,3), Discipline (1,1,2), and maybe play around with Spellbreaker as the third since LB4 has daze in an ammo skill (as does a banner).  Attributes I'd start w/ celestial, because celestial+might works well and all the stats are used, but I'd maybe start swapping in Seraph stats after getting a feel for it if it doesn't hurt LB3 too much.  Runes would probably need to be Firebrand for the quickness duration.  Sigils would likely be strength and celerity.  For healing skill Mending due to lower CD from Strength trait. For utilities skills the banners of tactics and strength I think are the best out of the 4 in this build, and then whatever for a 3rd utility... likely either a signet or physical skill.  Dealer's choice for elite.

That's I think where I'd start... no promises it's any good, but hopefully it helps ya' a bit.

~EpWa

Edited June 2, 2023 by EphemeralWallaby.7643

[GoingMenthol.7281]

The problem with longbow spellbreaker currently is that the 1 bar adrenaline skill is one of the worst. It does half the amount of strike damage and a third of the condition damage compared to a 3 bar burst

I'm gonna spoiler my reasoning so this post doesn't become a wall of unreadable text

Spoiler

Hammer, Mace, and Greatsword don't lose their damage output from only using 1 bar of adrenaline instead of 3, they lose the duration of their CC (3 seconds to 1 for mace, 2 seconds to 1 for hammer) or Fury (16 seconds to 8, which is still pretty much permanent uptime). Perfectly fine to use

Sword loses 2 strikes, 2 stacks of 4 second bleed, and 2 seconds of immobilise. That sounds like losing a lot, but the power damage is just 81 per swing (and a 0.22 coefficient) and 2 bleed stacks is nothing to lose sleep over. There could theoretically be a spellbreaker sword build to pump out immobilise and cripple. I made a super tanky sword and shield condi build for WvW before HoT came out with Arms and Tactics to cripple and immob everything into easy pickings for the zerg. Not optimal at all but still possible

Axe is similar to longbow, as it loses a lot of damage when only using 1 bar of adrenaline for the burst, probably the reason why it's only seen as an offhand

Completely agree on how slow the bow is without quickness, so I found a quirky way to build adrenaline. Using the Merciless Hammer trait and LB4 into a stack of enemies gets me to 3 full bars if I hit a group of 5 in a single hit, and an auto attack away from full when hitting 4 targets. It can kind of remove the need for Signet of Fury or Head Butt for the ramp up to full adrenaline, but only Berserker F1 is good, while core does lower damage, spellbreaker does even less, and bladesworn removes the bow F1 (and the huge adrenaline gain) entirely

So it comes back to... If longbow had something extra like a CC then it could compensate for the damage loss by providing something else instead

[GoingMenthol.7281]

Just to add to this, I think core longbow would be better if the F1 actually pulsed damage every second. Right now we've got a 3 bar adrenaline skill that gives a 9 second fire field but only ticks damage 4 times. Why not tick every second instead?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

14 minutes ago, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

Just to add to this, I think core longbow would be better if the F1 actually pulsed damage every second. Right now we've got a 3 bar adrenaline skill that gives a 9 second fire field but only ticks damage 4 times. Why not tick every second instead?

This^. I've been pushing for this for years. The effect is not strong enough for a pulse every 3s.

[EphemeralWallaby.7643]

10 hours ago, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

Just to add to this, I think core longbow would be better if the F1 actually pulsed damage every second. Right now we've got a 3 bar adrenaline skill that gives a 9 second fire field but only ticks damage 4 times. Why not tick every second instead?

I'm guessing you were being rhetorical, but I do have a possible and unsatisfying answer... I think it's because you're also creating a 9-second fire combo field, and LB3-5 are finishers, and LB1 is a 20% finisher... it seems like the LB was designed with the intention to take advantage of combos, esp its own F1.  There are few skills that create such a long-duration fields I can think of (guardian's Hallowed Ground can be traited to 10 sec, I think).  I also recall pre-expansions there was quite a push for players to utilize combos.  If there are other players around to capitalize on it, it's def extra burning, might, and fire auras to be generated.

BUT, having to wait to dump LB 3-5 as finishers on a lvl 3 F1 is problematic design if that's the case, esp back in the day before 2 of them were ammo skills, while the LB1 20% finisher makes it unreliable.  That could at least be upped to 50%.

~EpWa

[Myror.7521]

Unpopulare opinion.... I would prefer warr to deal acutually good dmg instead of been CC Spam carry....

[GoingMenthol.7281]

4 hours ago, EphemeralWallaby.7643 said:

I'm guessing you were being rhetorical, but I do have a possible and unsatisfying answer... I think it's because you're also creating a 9-second fire combo field, and LB3-5 are finishers, and LB1 is a 20% finisher... it seems like the LB was designed with the intention to take advantage of combos, esp its own F1

That's disappointing. Renegade has Soulcleave's Summit and Spiritcrush for fire fields, and bow 1 and 3 to combo with it (not to mention swapping to Mallyx for dark fields afterwards), but warrior longbow is toned down because the combo field lasts too long