Grenade Auto Attack.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

The OP specifically stated almost 4k on Warrior, i.e. Heavy Armor. Someone also already made your points, but I don't think either of you read the rest of the thread.

I'll copy and paste the response, to make it easy for you:

Not really. Simply running a Demo amulet puts Warrior at or above the Heavy Golem armor. Total health doesn't matter in evaluating how hard something hits. And bunkers often utilize boons or active defenses instead of straight soaking damage. Protection alone probably makes most classes tankier than the Heavy Golem.

A Glass warrior would take that 4k though. Heavy armor without toughness from the amulet or runes, and no shield is about the same as the light golem.

[bethekey.8314]

26 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

How so?

If something hits you for 4k and you have 12k health, then 4k damage is 33% of your health.

If something hits you for 4k and you have 30k health, then, well, you just *shrug*.

Yes, that's how percentages work. The argument about Grenades was that the autos were hitting 4k. I debated this.

4k will still be 4k if you have 20k health or 100k. Try to stay on topic.

[bethekey.8314]

24 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

A Glass warrior would take that 4k though. Heavy armor without toughness from the amulet or runes, and no shield is about the same as the light golem.

There are extremes to every build people can run. Claiming that the Heavy Golem isn't at all representative of a typical Warrior build is wrong. Especially when you factor in amulet, runes, boons etc.

Edited June 13, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[Morwath.9817]

8 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Yes, that's how percentages work. The argument about Grenades was that the autos were hitting 4k. I debated this.

4k will still be 4k if you have 20k health or 100k. Try to stay on topic.

It's not about precentages, but things being relative.

[Stalima.5490]

43 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Yes, that's how percentages work. The argument about Grenades was that the autos were hitting 4k. I debated this.

4k will still be 4k if you have 20k health or 100k. Try to stay on topic.

It's more of an effective health issue, so health and toughness are both things to consider.

 

I'd say 20k-21k is a fairly decent health value in pvp so 4000 damage would mean they literally kill in 5 hits that can be chained back to back, potentially within 2.5 seconds with quickness, that is pretty crazy damage output considering.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

I want red AoE circles on the ground where enemy grenades will land, just like all the other delayed or pulsed AoE skills in the game... but for some reason ANet won't code grenade kit skills to leave red circles .

The animation for grenades is practically impossible to see in combat when there are any other skill effects in the surrounding area.

[shion.2084]

2 minutes ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

I want red AoE circles on the ground where enemy grenades will land, just like all the other delayed or pulsed AoE skills in the game... but for some reason ANet won't code grenade kit skills to leave red circles .

The animation for grenades is practically impossible to see in combat when there are any other skill effects in the surrounding area.

While we're at it... I want unblockables to all have some identical icon age over the attacker so you can tell whether your actually able to block what's coming.

[Morwath.9817]

41 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

While we're at it... I want unblockables to all have some identical icon age over the attacker so you can tell whether your actually able to block what's coming.

And I want casting bars with ability icons...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

There are extremes to every build people can run. Claiming that the Heavy Golem isn't at all representative of a typical Warrior build is wrong. Especially when you factor in amulet, runes, boons etc.

It's a good thing I didn't claim the heavy isn't at all representative now isn't it? It also isn't completely representative so shouldn't be used as a stand in either.

[bethekey.8314]

20 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's a good thing I didn't claim the heavy isn't at all representative now isn't it? It also isn't completely representative so shouldn't be used as a stand in either.

I would be happy to throw grenades at your Warrior, both on a standard builds, and see if they come anywhere close to 4k under realistic fight conditions (movement, crits, vulnerability application/falling off, surviving).

As an aside, I'd also like to emphasize that Grenades are literally the last crutch holding up any semblance of Engineer damage. I am not against nerfs to Grenade directionality or damage, so long as Engineer damage across the board is increased significantly.

Edited June 13, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

31 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I would be happy to throw grenades at your Warrior, both on a standard builds, and see if they come anywhere close to 4k under realistic fight conditions (movement, crits, vulnerability application/falling off, surviving).

I'm sure you'd hit anywhere from from 3k to 5k in reality.

31 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

As an aside, I'd also like to emphasize that Grenades are literally the last crutch holding up any semblance of Engineer damage. I am not against nerfs to Grenade directionality or damage, so long as Engineer damage across the board is increased significantly.

Pistol and some of the other kits all need work. Engi isn't the only class in that boat though. Problem is that Anet keeps buffing the wrong things in the wrong ways.

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'm sure you'd hit anywhere from from 3k to 5k in reality.

And I'm sure it would most often be between 2 and 3k.

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Pistol and some of the other kits all need work. Engi isn't the only class in that boat though. Problem is that Anet keeps buffing the wrong things in the wrong ways.

Perhaps I notice threads about Engi more, but over the past two years has there been a more complained about set of skills? Grenades are there among the top, I believe.

Sure other classes have issues. Does every class only get 1 weapon per build? Does every class rely on their core set of skills as much as Engi?

No. Errant nerfs to kits and weapons fundamentally hurt Engi more than nerfs another classes abilities and weapons. Without usable kits, Engi doesn't have a weapon swap. And without usable rifles or pistols, well, Engi doesn't have other core weapon options. With or without Elite specs, Engis have less than 10 total weapon combinations, the least in the game: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon Warrior? It has 21-36. If one gets nerfed in a bad way, you have other options to round out a build.

And other classes don't have the history of dedicated "nerf Engi" posters spamming boards til the point it's a meme. Mechanist might as well not exist as elite spec in PvP anymore after all the overnerfing. So when I see someone claiming inflated numbers on one of, if not the last, viable damage kits for PvP Engis, I call it out. You all wonder why Anet seems to balance poorly when threads like these are so common, lol.

How about we see the front page of the forums plastered with things that actually matter if Anet has limited resources? Like how Ele has had two meta defining specs completely dominating the game mode for months on end?

Edited June 13, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

And I'm sure it would most often be between 2 and 3k.

So you won't prestack might while in stealth?

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Perhaps I notice threads about Engi more, but over the past two years has there been a more complained about set of skills? Grenades are there among the top, I believe.

Mains always notice threads about their class.

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Sure other classes have issues. Does every class only get 1 weapon per build? Does every class rely on their core set of skills as much as Engi?

Ele does. Warrior pretty much relies on their core skills to get by. SiO, Bull's Charge and the core weapons pretty much stay stapled with the heal, elite, and other utility depending on the espec and damage type being run.

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

No. Errant nerfs to kits and weapons fundamentally hurt Engi more than nerfs another classes abilities and weapons. Without usable kits, Engi doesn't have a weapon swap. And without usable rifles or pistols, well, Engi doesn't have other core weapon options. With or without Elite specs, Engis have less than 10 total weapon combinations, the least in the game: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon Warrior? It has 21-36. If one gets nerfed in a bad way, you have other options to round out a build.

I feel you on the weapon front, but the vast majority of those weapon combos on warrior are garbage tier and see no play. They have been playing GS + X/shield as power for ever with that X being Axe or Dagger, and if they're condi it's been sword/X+Longbow forever. It feels like when anything that gets powerful enough to over take those it gets nerfed.

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

And other classes don't have the history of dedicated "nerf Engi" posters spamming boards til the point it's a meme. Mechanist might as well not exist as elite spec in PvP anymore after all the overnerfing. 

You should see the QQ threads about Gunflame. Or the QQ threads about warrior sustain whenever it functions properly. To be fair I think you'll see just as much QQ about any given class from some set of players or another. Have you seen the threads about stealth and the thief mains get their knickers in a bunch every time? Or complaints about Harbinger with cele stats over in the WvW side of the house? I don't think any class is immune to people making nerf threads about them. Some are warranted, some aren't. Sometimes it's worth taking a step back even as a warrior main and point to where things are actually overperforming so the right thing gets nerfed and not the wrong thing. Case in point with the Gunflame QQ threads the culprit over in WvW is Warrior's Cunning, not Gunflame itself, but Gunflame is what people see in their log and what they overreact too on the forums.

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

How about we see the front page of the forums plastered with things that actually matter if Anet has limited resources? Like how Ele has had two meta defining specs completely dominating the game mode for months on end?

CMC mains ele, so good luck with that 😕

[bethekey.8314]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

So you won't prestack might while in stealth?

An auto still wouldn't hit more than 3k with Blast gyro might. And not every build is the same.

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I feel you on the weapon front, but the vast majority of those weapon combos on warrior are garbage tier and see no play. They have been playing GS + X/shield as power for ever with that X being Axe or Dagger, and if they're condi it's been sword/X+Longbow forever. It feels like when anything that gets powerful enough to over take those it gets nerfed.

There's a difference between "playing garbage because you have to" and "playing the best thing of your options". Half of warrior weapons might be better than Engi's options, but never see play, while Engi's weapons see a ton of play because they have to use them. And garbage is subjective, imo.

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I don't think any class is immune to people making nerf threads about them.

Not my point. Engi was spammed with nerf threads to the point it became an actual meme, and the troll poster was known by name. And for comparison, I did a search comparing "gunflame" to "grenade" across the past year and a half on the forums. 285 results for "gunflame", 782 for "grenade". Not quite the same response.

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Case in point with the Gunflame QQ threads the culprit over in WvW is Warrior's Cunning, not Gunflame itself, but Gunflame is what people see in their log and what they overreact too on the forums.

Reminds me of Nade 4k complaints. When the Warrior actually got might stacked, vulnerabipity'd, and combo'd on. At least you can block it.

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

vulnerabipity'd, 

🤣I'm going to start using this now. 

[ccccc.4963]

Buff grenades

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

An auto still wouldn't hit more than 3k with Blast gyro might. And not every build is the same.

You have more might sources than blast gyro.

8 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

There's a difference between "playing garbage because you have to" and "playing the best thing of your options". Half of warrior weapons might be better than Engi's options, but never see play, while Engi's weapons see a ton of play because they have to use them. And garbage is subjective, imo.

Again, I feel you on the Engi weapon front. They should have launched it with at least another weapon, but then that is because of kits, and how many of those kits are objectively bad outside of bomb kit?

8 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Not my point. Engi was spammed with nerf threads to the point it became an actual meme, and the troll poster was known by name. And for comparison, I did a search comparing "gunflame" to "grenade" across the past year and a half on the forums. 285 results for "gunflame", 782 for "grenade". Not quite the same response.

That probably has to do with the amount of warriors versus the amount of engis as well, so kept that in mind. Not that we have those actual population numbers ourselves, but if we did we could normalize those post counts based on the active in game population in the competitive modes for a better comparison.

8 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Reminds me of Nade 4k complaints. When the Warrior actually got might stacked, vulnerabipity'd, and combo'd on. At least you can block it.

In Engi's case it probably has more to do with traits like Laser's Edge or Object in Motion than the actual grenade skill used. In Grenade Kit's case I firmly believe any problem people have with it's damage comes from such traits in the espec lines. For Gunflame it's Warrior's Cunning still having high modifiers in WvW (referencing that mode because you don't see QQ about it on this side of the house for several reasons).

[Kuma.1503]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You have more might sources than blast gyro.

This is why we should undo the change to Kinetic Accelerators. Make it quickness again. 

Changing it to might + fury DID nerf like... 90% of Scrappers viable builds. But it also made glass Scrapper much more oppressive to deal with. Gaining fury from KA lets us drop the trait Short Fuse in exhchage for Glass Canon (more damage during our opener) or Grenadier (More reliable nades). 

It made our openers hurt a lot more because where we previously had to chip our opponents down before going in for a lethal blow. Now we can prestack might/fury in stealth and blow our load right at the start. The tiny bit of quickness you get from Chronomancer rune is all you need to get the kill. And if it fails... Super speed away. 

The solution here is simple. Undo that dumb nerf and change Kinetic Accelerators back. 

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Again, I feel you on the Engi weapon front. They should have launched it with at least another weapon, but then that is because of kits, and how many of those kits are objectively bad outside of bomb kit?

Flamethrower is laughable after the nerfs. 

Tool Kit is neither amazing nor terrible. Prybar is funny. 

Elixir gun is strong. Damage, CC, Stunbreak on the toolbelt, tiny bit of sustain and cleanse. 

Bomb Kit is lol

Med Kit keeps getting random nerfs that it does not need in PvP. And does not work on Mechanist. You normally run other heals over it. 

Our kits are a mixed bag. Good Kits are Egun and Nades. Rest are "Meh" at best. 

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That probably has to do with the amount of warriors versus the amount of engis as well, so kept that in mind. Not that we have those actual population numbers ourselves, but if we did we could normalize those post counts based on the active in game population in the competitive modes for a better comparison.

Even if we normalize things. Warrior doesn't have a spec that the community hates so much, they openly say it should be nerfed into unplayability in competetive modes. 

And you don't have nearly as many people clamouring for MORE nerfs on what is currently the worst core spec in the game. 

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

In Engi's case it probably has more to do with traits like Laser's Edge or Object in Motion than the actual grenade skill used. In Grenade Kit's case I firmly believe any problem people have with it's damage comes from such traits in the espec lines. For Gunflame it's Warrior's Cunning still having high modifiers in WvW (referencing that mode because you don't see QQ about it on this side of the house for several reasons).

See previous section about Kineic Accelerators. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

23 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

This is why we should undo the change to Kinetic Accelerators. Make it quickness again. 

Changing it to might + fury DID nerf like... 90% of Scrappers viable builds. But it also made glass Scrapper much more oppressive to deal with. Gaining fury from KA lets us drop the trait Short Fuse in exhchage for Glass Canon (more damage during our opener) or Grenadier (More reliable nades). 

It made our openers hurt a lot more because where we previously had to chip our opponents down before going in for a lethal blow. Now we can prestack might/fury in stealth and blow our load right at the start. The tiny bit of quickness you get from Chronomancer rune is all you need to get the kill. And if it fails... Super speed away. 

The solution here is simple. Undo that dumb nerf and change Kinetic Accelerators back. 

 

And there we get to a meaningful conversation.