warrior has 0 gameplay diversity.

[felix.2386]

warrior already has lowest gameplay diversity, every single utlity simply boils down to make your weapon number go up, or make you do weapon number while not taking much damage, with minimum alteration of gameplay, and even physical stills has simply become some kind of damage buff...

i don't know how anet think it is a good idea to hard lock elite spec utilities to it's respective elite spec, with the same functions as the rest of the utility skills aka make existing number go up ( not introducing new mechanics, nor new numbers, nor new ways to damage)

you think you finally freed berserker bladesworn from slotting signets and finally made diversity, but you hard locked them into very specific set of utility which is 0 diversity, not to mention these utilities has no real differentiation, they all just make the existing number go up but just elite specific, which is lazy fake diversity.

in the end, people want utility diversity, because they want skill diversity and gameplay diversity, so stop with this fake diversity and actually make real gameplay diversity

Edited June 3, 2023 by felix.2386

[felix.2386]

also how about you introduce high hit numbers, instead of just completely giving near perma resistance

or just have trait that completely ignore blinds

so blind would actually still be useful as a counterplay and reduces damage by a % and not just completely useless uninteractive gameplay

[Jzaku.9765]

I think most people just have no idea how to respond to gameplay criticisms, 90% of the time responses will be something like "it does good DPS, so why on earth are you complaining?"

But at least for PVE I completely agree with your assessment. Maybe people are kneejerk reacting to your phrasing of the issue but it's ultimately correct,  Berserker are Bladesworn have nigh completely locked utility bars with specific utility skills, and it's bad for any build to be like this. Flexibility is a massive aspect of what makes a build strong. 

I can only hope the balance team understands this - they seem to have identified this as an issue for boon support builds, so I'm not really sure if they consider it a bad thing for DPS builds to be like this too (despite me personally considering it extremely detrimental to a build). 

[JTGuevara.9018]

So...warrior has a design problem. The diversity that you seek is only possible with a class redesign. The reason that you see so many warriors playing the same way is because warrior (regardless of elite spec) does not have a choice but to rely on its profession mechanic (burst) and weapons to be any useful. You could give it all the "play styles" and diversity you want, but if you don't redesign the class to where it does something different and not rely on using and hitting that burst, then you've basically done nothing.

Bladesworn was the closest thing to an actual redesign, but here's the thing: it backfired. The redesign, in effect, is basically a functional gimping of warrior.

[felix.2386]

offensive support:

https://i.imgur.com/4syGSwE.png

defensive support:

https://i.imgur.com/mQhBfRC.png

lol bruh

Edited June 3, 2023 by felix.2386

[felix.2386]

https://clips.twitch.tv/InexpensiveColorfulDaikonGrammarKing-lyfBuVIpbhUm0Hb4

i know i already talked about how gimmicky, clunky berserker extension mechanic is, for literally months

but still good to see some one else say it.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Felix is starting to understand pain.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, felix.2386 said:

https://clips.twitch.tv/InexpensiveColorfulDaikonGrammarKing-lyfBuVIpbhUm0Hb4

i know i already talked about how gimmicky, clunky berserker extension mechanic is, for literally months

but still good to see some one else say it.

Now imagine every time they try to unscuff it it costs you a % of your damage, either through trait reworks or bugs that have to be pointed out by people from snowcrows.

[felix.2386]

in a more detailed look, I realize how warrior overall is currently the worst class in the game, I generally thought just because of clunkiness and lesser diversity that caused low population and didn't think it would be in a too bad of a state, but that's not really it.

currently pvp, berserker sucks, spellbreaker sucks, only playable good build is bladesworn that is simply a damage sponge resident sleeper build side noder that gets laughed at, that also got wrecked in mAT, really encouraging time for warrior

in pve, the entire warrior specs, only good at doing damage, that's it..nothing else, not like every class else does not do good damage at this point of game while being able to do other things.

completely sucks at wvw roaming, meh at zerging, power lb zerker is just good at tagging for bags in wild zerg fights with padding damage, that's it. The only good build is spellbreaker in organized gvg and that's it.

there's not a single class in this game get worse than this.

Edited June 3, 2023 by felix.2386

[EphemeralWallaby.7643]

This reads a lot like a flounce thread. 

~EpWa

[Greyrat.2378]

pZerker is indeed meh unless you are playing condi variant (the moment you get kicked out of berserker state it just feels bad to play). Power variant is pretty much unplayable in PvP.

Spellbreaker feels very bland in PvE, kind of fun in PvP but again, gameplay wise it feels pretty much same as zerker/core.

Bladesworn idk, it's kind of fun but as I said multiple times before, I don't think that it fits into GW2 combat and moving main dps source into 1 attack is not really good design in my eyes. In PvP it's very predictable and it's mostly being carried by Unyielding Dragon.

It really feels like ArenaNet did not even try when you compare it to something like Revenant (which is probably where the most of the cool ideas for warr went).

Edited June 4, 2023 by Greyrat.2378

[Buran.3796]

   I think that Warrior is in the middle of the table (mid-low) in terms of variety, talking specifically about PvE.

   Is a class which should benefit from the huge amount of weapons available, but the main mechanic (releasing the burst F1 skill) is muted down in two of the specs, since both Spellbreaker and Bladesworn in some ways diminish the variety of burst you use.

   Now, in terms of PvE gameplay, I find both Spellbreaker and Bladesworn very enjoyable: both are very different and Bladesworn in particular is unique in the game, with this sort of iaido which forces you to known very well the foes and the correct use of the step,  stability and aegis to ensure your overloaded hits. Is extremely satisfying when played well, but can be frustrating vs foes with tons of cc/i-frames and against players, since is a concept hard to balance in player vs player interaction. The Spellbreaker is fun in PvP and works decently at PvE but is not a class which I particulary enjoy in PvE (again, Bladesworn is the exception, and I have a Warrior cospolayed as Nagoriyuki from Guilty Gear Strive to fit the iaido/kenshin master trope).

   So, in my opinion, Warrior has a solid PvP/roaming spec in the Spellbreaker, which can perform effectively with a variety of weapons, but is not that phenomenal at PvE. Some fun WvW Berserker builds can be made, but SB is overall better. If Revenant didn't exist, I think Bladesworn would be my main PvE class: Guardian has more variety but is not as strong for solo play (which is mostly what I do at every game mode). In PvP, as happens with the Vindicator, Bladesworn can only exist in a quatum state: either too powerful or mediocre.

   I think that Warrior is NOT the worst profession in terms of variety (Ranger and Thief are worse) but falls in the middle along the Mesmer: a class with 2-3 very powerfull builds which eclipse everything else they have.

[eXruina.4956]

10 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Felix is starting to understand pain.

🤣

Edited June 4, 2023 by eXruina.4956

[Jzaku.9765]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I think that Warrior is in the middle of the table (mid-low) in terms of variety, talking specifically about PvE.

   Is a class which should benefit from the huge amount of weapons available, but the main mechanic (releasing the burst F1 skill) is muted down in two of the specs, since both Spellbreaker and Bladesworn in some ways diminish the variety of burst you use.

   Now, in terms of PvE gameplay, I find both Spellbreaker and Bladesworn very enjoyable: both are very different and Bladesworn in particular is unique in the game, with this sort of iaido which forces you to known very well the foes and the correct use of the step,  stability and aegis to ensure your overloaded hits. Is extremely satisfying when played well, but can be frustrating vs foes with tons of cc/i-frames and against players, since is a concept hard to balance in player vs player interaction. The Spellbreaker is fun in PvP and works decently at PvE but is not a class which I particulary enjoy in PvE (again, Bladesworn is the exception, and I have a Warrior cospolayed as Nagoriyuki from Guilty Gear Strive to fit the iaido/kenshin master trope).

   So, in my opinion, Warrior has a solid PvP/roaming spec in the Spellbreaker, which can perform effectively with a variety of weapons, but is not that phenomenal at PvE. Some fun WvW Berserker builds can be made, but SB is overall better. If Revenant didn't exist, I think Bladesworn would be my main PvE class: Guardian has more variety but is not as strong for solo play (which is mostly what I do at every game mode). In PvP, as happens with the Vindicator, Bladesworn can only exist in a quatum state: either too powerful or mediocre.

   I think that Warrior is NOT the worst profession in terms of variety (Ranger and Thief are worse) but falls in the middle along the Mesmer: a class with 2-3 very powerfull builds which eclipse everything else they have.

Agree with you about Thief being in a similar spot - It has a very unpopular Alac build and a failed attempt at a support build, so it ends up being in the same Power/Condi DPS only camp as Warrior most of the time. 

Strongly disagree about Ranger though. Druid is still, to this day, one of the strongest support builds in the game for PVE. The fact that it has kept this position even despite the sheer jank of Alacrity from spamming Spirit actives speaks to the strength of the Ranger/Druid baseline mechanics. 

[felix.2386]

4 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I think that Warrior is in the middle of the table (mid-low) in terms of variety, talking specifically about PvE.

   Is a class which should benefit from the huge amount of weapons available, but the main mechanic (releasing the burst F1 skill) is muted down in two of the specs, since both Spellbreaker and Bladesworn in some ways diminish the variety of burst you use.

   Now, in terms of PvE gameplay, I find both Spellbreaker and Bladesworn very enjoyable: both are very different and Bladesworn in particular is unique in the game, with this sort of iaido which forces you to known very well the foes and the correct use of the step,  stability and aegis to ensure your overloaded hits. Is extremely satisfying when played well, but can be frustrating vs foes with tons of cc/i-frames and against players, since is a concept hard to balance in player vs player interaction. The Spellbreaker is fun in PvP and works decently at PvE but is not a class which I particulary enjoy in PvE (again, Bladesworn is the exception, and I have a Warrior cospolayed as Nagoriyuki from Guilty Gear Strive to fit the iaido/kenshin master trope).

   So, in my opinion, Warrior has a solid PvP/roaming spec in the Spellbreaker, which can perform effectively with a variety of weapons, but is not that phenomenal at PvE. Some fun WvW Berserker builds can be made, but SB is overall better. If Revenant didn't exist, I think Bladesworn would be my main PvE class: Guardian has more variety but is not as strong for solo play (which is mostly what I do at every game mode). In PvP, as happens with the Vindicator, Bladesworn can only exist in a quatum state: either too powerful or mediocre.

   I think that Warrior is NOT the worst profession in terms of variety (Ranger and Thief are worse) but falls in the middle along the Mesmer: a class with 2-3 very powerfull builds which eclipse everything else they have.

i'm talking about the ENTIRE game right here. completely change the condition of my statement.

first of all, pve, ranger has a god tier support build and dps build, all warrior has alright are only dps build, and untamed is uncontested in spvp right now and soulbeast and untamed are both top tier roamer in wvw.

thief is in a similar spot in pve for being only dps (quickness DE incoming), but dp drd is uncontested in pvp and basically, all of the specs are top roamer in wvw.

and warrior? all it has is dps in pve, the only thing that's decent right now is bladesworn in pvp but got wrecked hard in mAT, and not single good roaming build in wvw.

if you can't understand why spellbreaker is completely hot trash right now in sPvP, and since the last time you actually see a spellbreaker roamer in wvw, that would be like 2 years ago. you think it is playable somehow, because the people who can actually play the game has gone down significantly, at a rating where people can actually play the game, spellbreaker does not win a single match up and is confirmed by the likes of boyce.

what do u mean guardian is weak in solo play, there's literally a reason why everybody and their mom played guardian for 5 years straight.

[Myror.7521]

 you could prove me wrong but.....

Warrior is not weak by Design its weak cause DMG and sustain relies on if you hit your burst skills or not. This been said classes are able to spam that many things rn to evade to get hit that warrior lost everything. And you know why they need this perma non Hit able state? Right cause aoes in this Game hit Like Truck. Change my mind but First of all before warr should see buffs they should Nerf spamy AoE skills. @felix.2386

Edited June 4, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

 you could prove me wrong but.....

Warrior is not weak by Design its weak cause DMG and sustain relies on if you hit your burst skills or not. This been said classes are able to spam that many things rn to evade to get hit that warrior lost everything. And you know why they need this perma non Hit able state? Right cause aoes in this Game hit Like Truck. Change my mind burst First of all before warr should see buffs they should Nerf spamy AoE skills. @felix.2386

This. If all of our on burst hit traits became on burst use, without having to hit, then you'd see warrior jump significantly in effectiveness.

[Myror.7521]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 tho was there Not a time where they said they want traits Like adrenal health and Berserkers Power be on use and not on hit?^^

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I maintain that traits like BP, AH, and cleansing ire should function like:

"Gain one stack on burst use; gain an additional stack per bar of adrenaline spent if the burst hits."

That way you always get something, but you gain a lot more if you play well and actually land the burst.  Given that other professions have similar powerful effects that are completely under their control (like vindicator getting a +15% dmg mod just for dodging), I don't think this is unreasonable.

[Buran.3796]

6 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

what do u mean guardian is weak in solo play, there's literally a reason why everybody and their mom played guardian for 5 years straight.

 ... In instanced game modes with 5 to 10 players. BUT soloing bounties, champs and meta events Willbender is decent (but away from the top, maybe 10th of 27) and FB and DH are garbage.

   I don't think that things are that different at instanced PvE between Ranger and Warrior; according to Wingman data base both fit ~7% of users, and BS is better for OW. YES, Warrior deserves love in PvP, but we saw a Berserker in quarters at the MAT, so is not like the class is entirely useless. We will have a patch in less than 4 weeks....

[Myror.7521]

@Buran.3796 the Thing is...... the only reason why Warrior is not hard useless yet is eather you overstack endurepainlike skills with some heal at the Same time or you simply overheal everything (on your own Not your mades of course) .

Like Trust me remove this 2 things and you will see Warrior again on bottom tier. 

Lets say the trueth. We need DMG Back on CC (its a god kitten melee class so please gain us at least this feature to handle and punish ranged classes) and/or traitlines Like Adrenal Health and Berserkers Strength triggered by Adrenalin use and not on hit only.

 

(In PvP/WvW of course..... In PvE warr is straight melee hard DPS cause all Specs are this (sadly but at least it made sence))

Edited June 4, 2023 by Myror.7521

[anbujackson.9564]

From a PvE perspective... yeah.

You got three melee pdps options on three elite specs and thats it. And yes the damage is good sure. But thats about it.

Offensive support is a banner meme, defensive support doesnt exist.

And condi berserker is sadly not in a good spot and I am not saying that because of its relatively low damage. While you have ranged dps options in longbow, you dont want to fight in ranged because you need to be in melee for your rage skills and partly for your traits like last blaze and detonating fire auras. And the worst part of it is its absurdly bad dps rampup time. Just watch a benchmark video, it reaches its dps peak at the end of the fight literally. Any phase transitions and you are feeling really bad.

Still no manual exit by the way.

[felix.2386]

On 6/4/2023 at 4:31 PM, Buran.3796 said:

 ... In instanced game modes with 5 to 10 players. BUT soloing bounties, champs and meta events Willbender is decent (but away from the top, maybe 10th of 27) and FB and DH are garbage.

   I don't think that things are that different at instanced PvE between Ranger and Warrior; according to Wingman data base both fit ~7% of users, and BS is better for OW. YES, Warrior deserves love in PvP, but we saw a Berserker in quarters at the MAT, so is not like the class is entirely useless. We will have a patch in less than 4 weeks....

Wingman data is from people who update their combat log, thus only equal to basically the pve player who try hard for pve, and both power bladesworn and power spellbreaker do big number now and that's the only thing they care, when they are just trying for new log in a specific instance.

In general play, you can even try to do statistic yourself, there's far less warrior then 7%

Also how is fb worse then wb at soloing lol what, fb got build in stab, aegis, reflect dome and any tool to literally solo any open world content

[Buran.3796]

18 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

Wingman data is from people who update their combat log, thus only equal to basically the pve player who try hard for pve, 

[...]

Also how is fb worse then wb at soloing lol what, fb got build in stab, aegis, reflect dome and any tool to literally solo any open world content

   Wingman provides some statistics, which isn't ALL the truth, but still better than not stats at all or just anecdotal evidence.

   And about FB compared to WB at solo open world, when I think about solo OW don't mean cheap kitten Champions or HPs, or doing soft meta events as world bosses in which any spec can do well as long you known the basics, or even "hard bosses" as Triple Trouble, which requires a bit of discipline with the mechanics but not much else.  I'm thinking  about "ok, lets do 6-7 solo bounties in a map in a row (including legendaries), just for fun. And as a player which have done/tried that with Revenant specs, Mirage, Firebrand, Willbender...  Willbender is well ahead of Firebrand (but away from the top). While both are relatively weak in terms of re-sustain, at least Willbender has high damage numbers, easily stacking burst of near 30 burns; Firebrand has more utility tools thanx to the tomes, but those means very little when a fight is mean to last 4-8 minutes (in case of success). I've seen planty of videos of Roul or Hizen soloing bounties, and when they run Guardian builds they chose Willbender.

   So, FB is maybe better for "solo" if you're just completing a map alone and eventually you jump into a random meta event, but not if you want to solo bounties for fun or achievements.