Scrapper won't really be able to apply quickness outside of combat after the update

[Sirvaleen.1379]

14 hours ago, Tharan.9085 said:

Why Rocket Charge when you can have the buffed lower cd mine. New scrapper will definetly run mine and nades, the third utility probably a dps gyro. You might run healing turret and just use it off cd for another blast finisher and elite will be mortar as standard and depending on the utility you need stealth gyro or supply box.
Edit: Ignore the Rocket Charge bit, I always confuse rocket boots with rocket charge.

Yeah, Quick Scrapper will probably use the same build as the current Power DPS Scrapper, with healing turret or not depending of the quickness duration / finisher I guess.

[Kuma.1503]

Right now my biggest question is how many blasts and leaps it will take to keep 100% uptime. If it's anymore than 3, then this is a bad change. 3 or less, and I can easily live with it. 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Right now my biggest question is how many blasts and leaps it will take to keep 100% uptime. If it's anymore than 3, then this is a bad change. 3 or less, and I can easily live with it. 

That will depend on how much you plan to sacrifice to boost your concentration. Since whirl won't count that's out.

Shredder gyro will already lose it's purpose since it's a whirl finisher too, so that's going off the bar which means a loss of DPS if we replace that and lose spare capacitor which is another source of huge DPS in a whirl combo.

None of the grenades that typically appear in engineer kits count as blast finishers either. So likely will be replacing that with bomb kit now to use the toolbelt skill for the blast finisher, so if you liked to be a ranged scrapper well... tough I guess? The actual kit of bomb kit doesn't have any finishers in it.

Function Gyro will be on CD as a result now because it becomes a blast finisher. No word if it will keep it's combo field potential either so that leaves questions since the notes don't say it keeps the field effect.

Blast Gyro will likely stay mostly out of self preservation for Bypass coating.

Rifle Turret finisher isn't a blast or leap so that's out.

Net Turret might have some use since it's detonate is a blast finisher (awkward way to get that).

Awkward flamethrower use will probably show up now on a scrapper as well so there you go.

Tool kit has no finishers there so that's out.

And then there is the mine I guess you can be stuck with that to replace grenades which again is going to be a DPS loss.

 

So, if you have the concentration and want to get three, you will be using function gyro off CD (assuming it keeps it's field effect and the target doesn't move) you will be replacing grenade kit with either mines, bomb kit, flamethrower, or blowing up net turrets. or use the blast gyro which will require you to hug your targets for the full effect too. And then you will be using rocket charge and praying the game doesn't bug out and send you through the enemy potentially sending you off a ledge. This will let you keep shredder gyro and potentially grenades depending which way you go.

But because of that there is going to be janky things going on to maintain quickness. Rocket Charge is ideal for getting to a target but terrible in close range due to how long its cast time is. Even though it's trying to be pushed into standard rotations, most people will not use it off CD so that means another kit will be lost to avoid using what is a clunky, and often life ending power due to the game failing to register you are at your target.

To put it bluntly, you have to go through more hoops to do the same thing. Your combos will have to line up and with only three have to be minute rice perfect if you have enough concentration.

Add to that we are going to be losing utility as a result, we don't provide near as much potential as other more desirable quickness specs, the scrapper is likely to fall off the radar as a result in the end, as the call for firebrands or heralds at least will be sought. We will have to wait and see about the other specs that are gaining quickness, but yea basic brainstorming versus other class builds scrapper is not going to be high on a priority list and will be picked if nothing else is available.

And considering a scrappers DPS is below even a mecahnists, we aren't going to be desired for much. So best start planning to be a holosmith or mechanist spec in the near future if this goes through as planned.

Honestly shocked they didn't try to force the welling of gyros again this time.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

That will depend on how much you plan to sacrifice to boost your concentration. Since whirl won't count that's out.

Shredder gyro will already lose it's purpose since it's a whirl finisher too, so that's going off the bar which means a loss of DPS if we replace that and lose spare capacitor which is another source of huge DPS in a whirl combo.

None of the grenades that typically appear in engineer kits count as blast finishers either. So likely will be replacing that with bomb kit now to use the toolbelt skill for the blast finisher, so if you liked to be a ranged scrapper well... tough I guess? The actual kit of bomb kit doesn't have any finishers in it.

Function Gyro will be on CD as a result now because it becomes a blast finisher. No word if it will keep it's combo field potential either so that leaves questions since the notes don't say it keeps the field effect.

Blast Gyro will likely stay mostly out of self preservation for Bypass coating.

Rifle Turret finisher isn't a blast or leap so that's out.

Net Turret might have some use since it's detonate is a blast finisher (awkward way to get that).

Awkward flamethrower use will probably show up now on a scrapper as well so there you go.

Tool kit has no finishers there so that's out.

And then there is the mine I guess you can be stuck with that to replace grenades which again is going to be a DPS loss.

 

So, if you have the concentration and want to get three, you will be using function gyro off CD (assuming it keeps it's field effect and the target doesn't move) you will be replacing grenade kit with either mines, bomb kit, flamethrower, or blowing up net turrets. or use the blast gyro which will require you to hug your targets for the full effect too. And then you will be using rocket charge and praying the game doesn't bug out and send you through the enemy potentially sending you off a ledge. This will let you keep shredder gyro and potentially grenades depending which way you go.

But because of that there is going to be janky things going on to maintain quickness. Rocket Charge is ideal for getting to a target but terrible in close range due to how long its cast time is. Even though it's trying to be pushed into standard rotations, most people will not use it off CD so that means another kit will be lost to avoid using what is a clunky, and often life ending power due to the game failing to register you are at your target.

To put it bluntly, you have to go through more hoops to do the same thing. Your combos will have to line up and with only three have to be minute rice perfect if you have enough concentration.

Add to that we are going to be losing utility as a result, we don't provide near as much potential as other more desirable quickness specs, the scrapper is likely to fall off the radar as a result in the end, as the call for firebrands or heralds at least will be sought. We will have to wait and see about the other specs that are gaining quickness, but yea basic brainstorming versus other class builds scrapper is not going to be high on a priority list and will be picked if nothing else is available.

And considering a scrappers DPS is below even a mecahnists, we aren't going to be desired for much. So best start planning to be a holosmith or mechanist spec in the near future if this goes through as planned.

Honestly shocked they didn't try to force the welling of gyros again this time.

My current plan is to run med kit and sync Infusion bomb with blast gyro. Run A-AR, and make sure I drop a combo field with mortar any time it summons an Orbital. 

Use rocket charge as needed for uptime. Pull out a kit and stow it if Rocket Charge decides to randomly send me towards the abyss. That cancels the animation early. (They should let you stow cancel Rocket Charge without pulling out a kit tbh). 

That frees me up to continue running Shredder Gyro and Nade kit as normal. And hopefully means using Function gyro for uptime isn't needed. (They should REALLY stop encouring us to spam this. It's our rez utility.)

 

We may also see a rise of Juggernaut quick scrappers camping flamethrower and using blast gyro on and Flame blast on CD. Not sure how effective that'll be DPS wise tho. 

 

Assuming this goes though, I'm going to experiment with different combinations and see what works best. I'm tempted to try a wierd condi quickness Scrapper  with FT, Blast Gyro, and Bomb kit? Pistol/Shield as my weapons of choice.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

3 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

My current plan is to run med kit and sync Infusion bomb with blast gyro. Run A-AR, and make sure I drop a combo field with mortar any time it summons an Orbital. 

Use rocket charge as needed for uptime. Pull out a kit and stow it if Rocket Charge decides to randomly send me towards the abyss. That cancels the animation early. (They should let you stow cancel Rocket Charge without pulling out a kit tbh). 

That frees me up to continue running Shredder Gyro and Nade kit as normal. And hopefully means using Function gyro for uptime isn't needed. (They should REALLY stop encouring us to spam this. It's our rez utility.)

 

We may also see a rise of Juggernaut quick scrappers camping flamethrower and using blast gyro on and Flame blast on CD. Not sure how effective that'll be DPS wise tho. 

 

Assuming this goes though, I'm going to experiment with different combinations and see what works best. I'm tempted to try a wierd condi quickness Scrapper  with FT, Blast Gyro, and Bomb kit? Pistol/Shield as my weapons of choice.  

DPS scrappers are going to lose a lot and support are going to be doing awkward things they wouldn't normally do. So there's a lot of basic screwiness that's going to happen.

[Kuma.1503]

1 minute ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

DPS scrappers are going to lose a lot and support are going to be doing awkward things they wouldn't normally do. So there's a lot of basic screwiness that's going to happen.

DPS Scrapper gets very wonky after this change. 

I don't think Heal changes much though. Spamming blasts with Acid Bomb, Blast Gyro, and Shield 4 was already something I did on CD to grant might. I'm probaby going to swap out Pistol/Shield for Hammer in fractals/dungeons though. The pushback on Shield 4 is obnoxious on trash mobs. 

I am willing to give this a chance, but if we end up with ~2 seconds of quickness per combo or something rediculous. My Scrapper is going in the garbage. Because that means we'll have to do some rediculous nonsense with utilities and rotations just to upkeep quickness. Which ultimately changes nothing other than making the Scrapper more obnoxious to play. 

The amount of quickness granted needs to be generous to make this work. 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

6 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

DPS Scrapper gets very wonky after this change. 

I don't think Heal changes much though. Spamming blasts with Acid Bomb, Blast Gyro, and Shield 4 was already something I did on CD to grant might. I'm probaby going to swap out Pistol/Shield for Hammer in fractals/dungeons though. The pushback on Shield 4 is obnoxious on trash mobs. 

I am willing to give this a chance, but if we end up with ~2 seconds of quickness per combo or something rediculous. My Scrapper is going in the garbage. Because that means we'll have to do some rediculous nonsense with utilities and rotations just to upkeep quickness. Which ultimately changes nothing other than making the Scrapper more obnoxious to play. 

The amount of quickness granted needs to be generous to make this work. 

I currently have 52% base concentration on my scrapper since I use a few divine pieces swapping between scrapper and mechanist. When activating my gyros now, I give around 4 seconds of quickness. Rocket Charge has a CD of 12 seconds, blast 24 seconds, and function 25 seconds. Just on those three powers you are going to have holes in your quickness providing so you will definitely have to put in more if you want 100% coverage all the time.

[Kuma.1503]

5 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I currently have 52% base concentration on my scrapper since I use a few divine pieces swapping between scrapper and mechanist. When activating my gyros now, I give around 4 seconds of quickness. Rocket Charge has a CD of 12 seconds, blast 24 seconds, and function 25 seconds. Just on those three powers you are going to have holes in your quickness providing so you will definitely have to put in more if you want 100% coverage all the time.

It's at times like this that I think Anet should make public test servers. 

let people play around with these major reworks and give more informed feedback, so we can prevent 2-3 month long clown fiestas ahead of time. 

[Kenjiro.5074]

1 hour ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

That will depend on how much you plan to sacrifice to boost your concentration. Since whirl won't count that's out.

Shredder gyro will already lose it's purpose since it's a whirl finisher too, so that's going off the bar which means a loss of DPS if we replace that and lose spare capacitor which is another source of huge DPS in a whirl combo.

None of the grenades that typically appear in engineer kits count as blast finishers either. So likely will be replacing that with bomb kit now to use the toolbelt skill for the blast finisher, so if you liked to be a ranged scrapper well... tough I guess? The actual kit of bomb kit doesn't have any finishers in it.

Function Gyro will be on CD as a result now because it becomes a blast finisher. No word if it will keep it's combo field potential either so that leaves questions since the notes don't say it keeps the field effect.

Blast Gyro will likely stay mostly out of self preservation for Bypass coating.

Rifle Turret finisher isn't a blast or leap so that's out.

Net Turret might have some use since it's detonate is a blast finisher (awkward way to get that).

Awkward flamethrower use will probably show up now on a scrapper as well so there you go.

Tool kit has no finishers there so that's out.

And then there is the mine I guess you can be stuck with that to replace grenades which again is going to be a DPS loss.

 

So, if you have the concentration and want to get three, you will be using function gyro off CD (assuming it keeps it's field effect and the target doesn't move) you will be replacing grenade kit with either mines, bomb kit, flamethrower, or blowing up net turrets. or use the blast gyro which will require you to hug your targets for the full effect too. And then you will be using rocket charge and praying the game doesn't bug out and send you through the enemy potentially sending you off a ledge. This will let you keep shredder gyro and potentially grenades depending which way you go.

But because of that there is going to be janky things going on to maintain quickness. Rocket Charge is ideal for getting to a target but terrible in close range due to how long its cast time is. Even though it's trying to be pushed into standard rotations, most people will not use it off CD so that means another kit will be lost to avoid using what is a clunky, and often life ending power due to the game failing to register you are at your target.

To put it bluntly, you have to go through more hoops to do the same thing. Your combos will have to line up and with only three have to be minute rice perfect if you have enough concentration.

Add to that we are going to be losing utility as a result, we don't provide near as much potential as other more desirable quickness specs, the scrapper is likely to fall off the radar as a result in the end, as the call for firebrands or heralds at least will be sought. We will have to wait and see about the other specs that are gaining quickness, but yea basic brainstorming versus other class builds scrapper is not going to be high on a priority list and will be picked if nothing else is available.

And considering a scrappers DPS is below even a mecahnists, we aren't going to be desired for much. So best start planning to be a holosmith or mechanist spec in the near future if this goes through as planned.

Honestly shocked they didn't try to force the welling of gyros again this time.

You're not making any sense. Why would you have to replace grenade or shredder with a blast? Grenades never provided quickness before, it's not losing anything. We're gaining two quickness applications every 12 seconds from rocket charge. Gyros have 20-25 second cooldowns, so that makes up for almost 4 gyro superspeed applications. 

We currently have to cast heal gyro, shredder, blast gyro, coating, and function gyro on cooldown to keep quickness uptime. Now we only need to cast rocket charge and throw mine on cooldown. Can even save function gyro for downs.

Even if we had 0% BD: Rocket charge is 5s of quickness every 12s. With alacrity that's every 9.6 seconds, so round it up to 10. Throw mine is the same, 5s of quickness every 12s (10 with alacrity). So with alacrity that ALREADY caps your quickness. We also get some concentration for free from the trait so it's going to be pretty comfy to keep quickness. The use of throw mine instead of blast gyro also increases DPS: throw mine is super good damage and boonrip. Way better than blast gyro as an utility.

That leaves the other two utilities AND function gyro free. 

As for fields: We only need one field every 10 seconds. Healing turret is two fields at 20s cd each, which covers both and is also an extra blast which will overcap you. Mortar kit has 4 fields. Shredder will probs still be worth taking and it has another 20s cd field. Hammer 5 is another field.

You guys haven't played engineer for very long if you're worried about having to do combos.

[Kenjiro.5074]

28 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I currently have 52% base concentration on my scrapper since I use a few divine pieces swapping between scrapper and mechanist. When activating my gyros now, I give around 4 seconds of quickness. Rocket Charge has a CD of 12 seconds, blast 24 seconds, and function 25 seconds. Just on those three powers you are going to have holes in your quickness providing so you will definitely have to put in more if you want 100% coverage all the time.

At full zerker+scholar runes I have 17%BD, getting me 3s duration on each quickness application. So rocket charge is 6 seconds of quickness every 12 seconds. Replace blast gyro with Throw Mine, that's another 6s quickness every 12 seconds. That's already 100% uptime. By using one weapon skill we get for free, and one utility slot that also provides amazing DPS and boonrip. 

That's also without alacrity, without using function gyro, and without using healing turret. That's all going to overcap.

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

That will depend on how much you plan to sacrifice to boost your concentration. Since whirl won't count that's out.

Shredder gyro will already lose it's purpose since it's a whirl finisher too, so that's going off the bar which means a loss of DPS if we replace that and lose spare capacitor which is another source of huge DPS in a whirl combo.

None of the grenades that typically appear in engineer kits count as blast finishers either. So likely will be replacing that with bomb kit now to use the toolbelt skill for the blast finisher, so if you liked to be a ranged scrapper well... tough I guess? The actual kit of bomb kit doesn't have any finishers in it.

Function Gyro will be on CD as a result now because it becomes a blast finisher. No word if it will keep it's combo field potential either so that leaves questions since the notes don't say it keeps the field effect.

Blast Gyro will likely stay mostly out of self preservation for Bypass coating.

Rifle Turret finisher isn't a blast or leap so that's out.

Net Turret might have some use since it's detonate is a blast finisher (awkward way to get that).

Awkward flamethrower use will probably show up now on a scrapper as well so there you go.

Tool kit has no finishers there so that's out.

And then there is the mine I guess you can be stuck with that to replace grenades which again is going to be a DPS loss.

 

So, if you have the concentration and want to get three, you will be using function gyro off CD (assuming it keeps it's field effect and the target doesn't move) you will be replacing grenade kit with either mines, bomb kit, flamethrower, or blowing up net turrets. or use the blast gyro which will require you to hug your targets for the full effect too. And then you will be using rocket charge and praying the game doesn't bug out and send you through the enemy potentially sending you off a ledge. This will let you keep shredder gyro and potentially grenades depending which way you go.

But because of that there is going to be janky things going on to maintain quickness. Rocket Charge is ideal for getting to a target but terrible in close range due to how long its cast time is. Even though it's trying to be pushed into standard rotations, most people will not use it off CD so that means another kit will be lost to avoid using what is a clunky, and often life ending power due to the game failing to register you are at your target.

To put it bluntly, you have to go through more hoops to do the same thing. Your combos will have to line up and with only three have to be minute rice perfect if you have enough concentration.

Add to that we are going to be losing utility as a result, we don't provide near as much potential as other more desirable quickness specs, the scrapper is likely to fall off the radar as a result in the end, as the call for firebrands or heralds at least will be sought. We will have to wait and see about the other specs that are gaining quickness, but yea basic brainstorming versus other class builds scrapper is not going to be high on a priority list and will be picked if nothing else is available.

And considering a scrappers DPS is below even a mecahnists, we aren't going to be desired for much. So best start planning to be a holosmith or mechanist spec in the near future if this goes through as planned.

Honestly shocked they didn't try to force the welling of gyros again this time.

There are good theory crafters and then there is this.

You based all your assumptions on feelings... That is not how theory crafting works. If you assume that the new trait applies the same amount as the old one then:

Function gyro 22sec cd 11.36% uptime
Rocket charge 13.5sec cd (including execution) 37.04% uptime
Throw mine 11.6% cd 21.55% uptime

AAR 26.5sec cd 9.43% uptime

-> 79.39% uptime base so 25.97% bd required with mines, grenades, shredder

Rifle turret is a blast finisher btw. Hammer 3 is barely a dps loss over aa. It is even a dps gain while you have no quickness. This opens up slots because no need for shredder gyro anymore and you could take rifle turret for higher uptime or even utility there. This is a huge qol buff for heal scrapper because it has to blast fire fields for might anyways and now it even generates quickness.

 

 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

4 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

There are good theory crafters and then there is this.

You based all your assumptions on feelings... That is not how theory crafting works. If you assume that the new trait applies the same amount as the old one then:

Function gyro 22sec cd 11.36% uptime
Rocket charge 13.5sec cd (including execution) 37.04% uptime
Throw mine 11.6% cd 21.55% uptime

AAR 26.5sec cd 9.43% uptime

-> 79.39% uptime base so 25.97% bd required with mines, grenades, shredder

Rifle turret is a blast finisher btw. Hammer 3 is barely a dps loss over aa. It is even a dps gain while you have no quickness. This opens up slots because no need for shredder gyro anymore and you could take rifle turret for higher uptime or even utility there. This is a huge qol buff for heal scrapper because it has to blast fire fields for might anyways and now it even generates quickness.

 

 

Ah yes, dismissive point of view claiming statements are based on "feelings" while you demonstrate a point based on feelings, then trying to claim the exact opposite of reality. You're math is off quite a bit and relies working in a vacuum at the best of times. My favorite claim out of that entire tish up there of claiming "feelings" is the claim that hammer 3 (aka Rocket Charge) is barely a DPS loss which shows they've never used it, never mind rated it.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Nephalem.8921]

9 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Ah yes, dismissive point of view claiming statements are based on "feelings" while you demonstrate a point based on feelings, then trying to claim the exact opposite of reality. You're math is off quite a bit and relies working in a vacuum at the best of times.

How is that math off? The cds are even exaggerated to account for casttime + some leeway. Not sure what you mean with vacuum. That is how you calculate quickness uptime.

9 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

My favorite claim out of that entire tish up there of claiming "feelings" is the claim that hammer 3 (aka Rocket Charge) is barely a DPS loss which shows they've never used it, never mind rated it.

?

Show me your spreadsheet then. While under quickness aa chain and charge are almost equal. It hits hard but does not scale with quickness. still a strong skill.

No idea what you mean with rating a skill because dividing damage by execution time is not rocket science but i did rate your icebrood construct attempt. 11k dps on vindicator and impressive 28% alac generation on AH. Please calculate boon generation. You have to do it on boon builds or just copy a sc build because somebody there did it already.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[foxtrot.6902]

Rocket charge is barely/small dps loss though, that's not hyperbole-  granted I never tried looking @ numbers where prioritized over other skills (which we might have to do now, all depending on base duration granted). 

It could be fun, it could be obnoxious. It might open up some more possibilities while also boxing out old. Really going to depend on base duration granted. Currently can manage superspeed uptime & quickness w/same actions so that was nice vs jumping through additional hoops. I'm down to check it out though.

One thing is certain, benched scrappers from all the wvw nerfs will no longer be as good for home instanced farming lol and not much to look forward to in wvw with even more nerfs to superspeed compounded with new change 

Edited June 16, 2023 by foxtrot.6902

[Kenjiro.5074]

18 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Ah yes, dismissive point of view claiming statements are based on "feelings" while you demonstrate a point based on feelings, then trying to claim the exact opposite of reality. You're math is off quite a bit and relies working in a vacuum at the best of times. My favorite claim out of that entire tish up there of claiming "feelings" is the claim that hammer 3 (aka Rocket Charge) is barely a DPS loss which shows they've never used it, never mind rated it.

Wow.

I rarely come to the forums, is this level of delusion common here or is this a special case? These comments sounds like it's coming from a new player who never played engineer, this is fascinating.

[SoftPup.3048]

1 hour ago, Kenjiro.5074 said:

Wow.

I rarely come to the forums, is this level of delusion common here or is this a special case? These comments sounds like it's coming from a new player who never played engineer, this is fascinating.

I miss Reddit

[Kuma.1503]

On 6/15/2023 at 9:07 PM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Ah yes, dismissive point of view claiming statements are based on "feelings" while you demonstrate a point based on feelings, then trying to claim the exact opposite of reality. You're math is off quite a bit and relies working in a vacuum at the best of times. My favorite claim out of that entire tish up there of claiming "feelings" is the claim that hammer 3 (aka Rocket Charge) is barely a DPS loss which shows they've never used it, never mind rated it.

I use Rocket Charge all the time. If I can get away with using it in place of a dodge I will. It lets you keep doing DPS while avoiding mechanics. 

That's actually the biggest loss with this change. You'll need to press this on CD now, so that's one less method to keep uptime on bosses. Thankfully, we can still do the same with Hammer 4, so it's not the end of the world. 

[Tharan.9085]

On 6/15/2023 at 8:15 PM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

That will depend on how much you plan to sacrifice to boost your concentration. Since whirl won't count that's out.

Shredder gyro will already lose it's purpose since it's a whirl finisher too, so that's going off the bar which means a loss of DPS if we replace that and lose spare capacitor which is another source of huge DPS in a whirl combo.

None of the grenades that typically appear in engineer kits count as blast finishers either. So likely will be replacing that with bomb kit now to use the toolbelt skill for the blast finisher, so if you liked to be a ranged scrapper well... tough I guess? The actual kit of bomb kit doesn't have any finishers in it.

Function Gyro will be on CD as a result now because it becomes a blast finisher. No word if it will keep it's combo field potential either so that leaves questions since the notes don't say it keeps the field effect.

Blast Gyro will likely stay mostly out of self preservation for Bypass coating.

Rifle Turret finisher isn't a blast or leap so that's out.

Net Turret might have some use since it's detonate is a blast finisher (awkward way to get that).

Awkward flamethrower use will probably show up now on a scrapper as well so there you go.

Tool kit has no finishers there so that's out.

And then there is the mine I guess you can be stuck with that to replace grenades which again is going to be a DPS loss.

 

So, if you have the concentration and want to get three, you will be using function gyro off CD (assuming it keeps it's field effect and the target doesn't move) you will be replacing grenade kit with either mines, bomb kit, flamethrower, or blowing up net turrets. or use the blast gyro which will require you to hug your targets for the full effect too. And then you will be using rocket charge and praying the game doesn't bug out and send you through the enemy potentially sending you off a ledge. This will let you keep shredder gyro and potentially grenades depending which way you go.

But because of that there is going to be janky things going on to maintain quickness. Rocket Charge is ideal for getting to a target but terrible in close range due to how long its cast time is. Even though it's trying to be pushed into standard rotations, most people will not use it off CD so that means another kit will be lost to avoid using what is a clunky, and often life ending power due to the game failing to register you are at your target.

To put it bluntly, you have to go through more hoops to do the same thing. Your combos will have to line up and with only three have to be minute rice perfect if you have enough concentration.

Add to that we are going to be losing utility as a result, we don't provide near as much potential as other more desirable quickness specs, the scrapper is likely to fall off the radar as a result in the end, as the call for firebrands or heralds at least will be sought. We will have to wait and see about the other specs that are gaining quickness, but yea basic brainstorming versus other class builds scrapper is not going to be high on a priority list and will be picked if nothing else is available.

And considering a scrappers DPS is below even a mecahnists, we aren't going to be desired for much. So best start planning to be a holosmith or mechanist spec in the near future if this goes through as planned.

Honestly shocked they didn't try to force the welling of gyros again this time.

None of this makes any sense. Just run mine/grenade kit/explosion gyro and that will most likely be enough.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Thankfully, we can still do the same with Hammer 4, so it's not the end of the world. 

 

That is if you dont face something that ignores block. Dodge is more reliable than block

[Kuma.1503]

14 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

That is if you dont face something that ignores block. Dodge is more reliable than block

Very true. It's taken me a good bit of trial and error to find out what I can and can't block. We're giving up a neat little optization Scrapper used to have, which is unfortunate (for quickness builds at least). 

I honestly have no issue with performing combos for quickness. I'm one of the rare players who loves the combo system in GW2. And I've pretty much got my fire/water field blasts down to muscle memory. 

But two things I will miss is having Hammer 3 up whenever I need an extra dodge. And being able to consistently combo it with Shredder Gyro's toolbelt for Breakbar phases.  

[Talan.1608]

On 6/12/2023 at 5:44 PM, Jerus.4350 said:

Yeah, the idea of “hitting things off cooldown is bad” just doesn’t make any sense to me, and you’re right this change won’t change that we will hit things off cooldown, we’ll just hit different things, because that’s how the game works and why the whole idea doesn’t make sense.

It's not that "hit things on cooldown is bad", especially for DPS players. But when playing a support role, especially a more healing/supportive role, you usually have abilities that provide utility that doesn't get much value if you use it on cooldown, such as purge gyro for condi cleanses, bulwark gyro to soak some spike damage, or function gyro for helping to rez. If you're instead using those abilities off cooldown to apply quickness, the moments when the stars align for you to use them for their utility just aren't there. It just turns every gyro from being a unique ability with unique uses to "Apply Quickness #1, #2, #3, #4". That's not interesting or fun gameplay, that's just tedious and boring. 

 

The upcoming changes to require field combos using blast or leap finishers will at least alleviate this somewhat, since heal scraps tend to naturally have a few compatible finishers from kits, but we'll have to say what kind of duration we'll apply. If it is too low then we'll be in the same situation where you need to use your finishers off cooldown to maintain quickness, which is just putting lipstick on a pig at this point. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Talan.1608

[Calen.8945]

Quickness scrapper is dead after this update. Guess I'm going to be refarming gear and go pure power scrapper, no point the quickness now.

[Sirvaleen.1379]

On 6/24/2023 at 11:54 PM, Calen.8945 said:

Quickness scrapper is dead after this update. Guess I'm going to be refarming gear and go pure power scrapper, no point the quickness now.

With only a few variations in traits and gear, it will be the same anyway 🤭

Edit for confused :

He's going to go pure pDPS scrapper ? Well.. there won't be much difference between the new quick scrapper and the pure pDPS one, is what I was saying.

Amen to diversity.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Sirvaleen.1379

[Malus.2184]

On 6/12/2023 at 10:38 PM, Rayamon.4358 said:

A thought that occurred to me is that you won't really be able to give yourself quickness outside of combat in an easy manner with scrapper in the near future. Since it's reliant on doing blast and leap finishers, it's going to be very impractical to apply quickness to speed up interactions outside of combat now. Certainly doesn't help that leap skills tend to you know, move you around. So it seems scrapper will be joining the ''basically just quickness in combat'' group, also makes it harder to pre-stack for fractals. This indirectly buffs firebrand and herald which is great...

While I agree that being completely bound to gyros for quickness isn't ideal, limiting the combo type to leap and blast doesn't make it easier. If whirl combos or just completing combos was added to the list or making completing combos apply quickness, then it would be a bit easier. Of course, adding whirl finishers would most likely create projectiles that can aggro on mobs but leap finishers can likewise move you into aggro range of mobs. So if you're going to make it painful in one way, at least let us choose in what way we want to be masochists.

It's worse than that as it essentially makes Heal Scrapper even worse than the current Heal Specter. Pretty much all Fields and Finishers that can give Quickness are on the Hammer so using Kits and then blasting Gyrys to give Quickness is gone as an option.

And while I know underwater content is limited there are no Fields at all on the Speargun and only one Blast Finisher on a long cooldown and that results in having even less uptime on Quickness that Mechanist has on Alac when underwater.

I can see the intent behind the change that ANet has suggested and the practical implications of such a change mean that the change makes Scapper unplayable as anything other than support DPS and limits them to using a Hammer since that's where the Finishers they can access are. This also has the effect that encounter design will be even more limited than it is now since Cairn-style encounters where returning projectiles are bad will effectively lock Scrapper out of using Hammer 2.

To make a meaningful change it has to be so that Quickness is applied when we use a Tool Belt skill as that would give us far more leniency in what Utility Skills to bring for any encounter.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Malus.2184

[Endaris.1452]

On 6/25/2023 at 7:37 AM, Malus.2184 said:

To make a meaningful change it has to be so that Quickness is applied when we use a Tool Belt skill as that would give us far more leniency in what Utility Skills to bring for any encounter.

This would be just the same thing - trying to balance a boon that powerful across the cooldown of 20 or more individual skills is always going to be impossible. Either people will just avoid taking any boon duration whatsoever by just opting into the lowest cooldown options (because gear stats are stronger than any utility skill), causing those to get nerfed in the name of "not locking people into the same skills" yet again, hurting core engi. Or you will just be unable to produce any build that is competitive with the likes of firebrand and others - so basically like now, just worse.

There is no real difference between having quickness on toolbelts or finishers. Both aren't scrapper mechanics and both will always affect every other engi as well if they get touched to balance scrapper.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Endaris.1452