Will Relics invalidate legendary runes? [Merged]

[idpersona.3810]

4 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You obviously don't understand how the development process works.  When changes are planned,  approved, and announced they're locked in unless there's some showstopper found.  There's a change control process.  You can't just make sudden adjustments near release unless there's a showstopper that must be addressed.  So whatever people say at this point isn't going to impact what they've decided to go with.  

You keep on speaking as if you speak for the "player base".  To be frank the forum population isn't representative and certainly not the most vocal people.  99.999% of the player base is busy playing the game and doesn't actually care what's being discussed here.

Obviously this warranted a response, even if it was "we didn't account for this and we're looking into it". I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with because it will at least in the short term color how I view my time with this game.

I'm speaking for myself, and have never thought I gave the impression otherwise. Though...I don't know any player who would be happy with having to redo hours and hours of work because a developer decided they have to, to implement a new feature. From the responses on here, lots of legendary rune crafters aren't thrilled with the possibility of how this is going to work out. And we/they are all waiting for more information. In the meantime, speculation and discussion is all we can do.

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I'm speaking for myself, and have never thought I gave the impression otherwise. Though...I don't know any player who would be happy with having to redo hours and hours of work because a developer decided they have to, to implement a new feature. From the responses on here, lots of legendary rune crafters aren't thrilled with the possibility of how this is going to work out. And we/they are all waiting for more information. In the meantime, speculation and discussion is all we can do.

Literally every single major balancing update in every single MMO every made has resulted in some players having to redo hours of gameplay to re-gear toward the new meta.  It's unavoidable and part of the nature of MMOs.

No one is expecting everyone to be happy.  The point is you can't expect every major balancing change to please everyone.  That's literally impossible.

[Linken.6345]

35 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Literally every single major balancing update in every single MMO every made has resulted in some players having to redo hours of gameplay to re-gear toward the new meta.  It's unavoidable and part of the nature of MMOs.

No one is expecting everyone to be happy.  The point is you can't expect every major balancing change to please everyone.  That's literally impossible.

It is good they dont have to please everyone then just the ones in legendary gear.

[Eclipsiste.3251]

5 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Literally every single major balancing update in every single MMO every made has resulted in some players having to redo hours of gameplay to re-gear toward the new meta.  It's unavoidable and part of the nature of MMOs.

The whole idea of leg runes was to be rid of that need to re-grind.

You're wrong when you say it's unavoidable : with the current set of leg runes and leg armor + leg weapons you don't have to do any new farm after a "balancing" or expansion release. You already have all you need.

And obviously it's this absence of NEED to grind that bothers devs. 

Anet provided players with the perfect flexibility and freedom to experiment any build, and now they're releasing a way to remove that perfect feature, only to force people to farm again.

[Ynzalez.4081]

9 minutes ago, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

The whole idea of leg runes was to be rid of that need to re-grind.

You're wrong when you say it's unavoidable : with the current set of leg runes and leg armor + leg weapons you don't have to do any new farm after a "balancing" or expansion release. You already have all you need.

And obviously it's this absence of NEED to grind that bothers devs. 

Anet provided players with the perfect flexibility and freedom to experiment any build, and now they're releasing a way to remove that perfect feature, only to force people to farm again.

Grinding for legendary runes takes a super long time and lots of grinding - more than whatever the relic system will be.  (open world legendary armor and easier skyscale, the changes aren't about making the the game harder).  I don't think most players are theory crafters.  They want the best class, the best build, the best weapon, whatever is the best.  So unless you think the devs are trying to please the theory crafters, this change isn't about freedom to experiment.  They are probably trying to force people to do maps and metas that no one wants to do anymore.  Refresh old content to make it appear new.

[idpersona.3810]

1 hour ago, Ynzalez.4081 said:

Grinding for legendary runes takes a super long time and lots of grinding - more than whatever the relic system will be.  (open world legendary armor and easier skyscale, the changes aren't about making the the game harder).  I don't think most players are theory crafters.  They want the best class, the best build, the best weapon, whatever is the best.  So unless you think the devs are trying to please the theory crafters, this change isn't about freedom to experiment.  They are probably trying to force people to do maps and metas that no one wants to do anymore.  Refresh old content to make it appear new.

And that's fine in concept. You don't take away people's work to force them to do so. You add a new incentive. It's the actual taking away that's the problem here. Not the idea of doing the old content for new reasons.

[Geralt.7519]

7 hours ago, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

And obviously it's this absence of NEED to grind that bothers devs.

Isn't this the foundation of this game tho? The reason why it's so popular?

Everywhere I see people recommending GW2 to all those who are tired of the gear treadmill, horizontal gear progression being it's strongest point.

While we do have things to grind - and many aspect of GW2 are actually very grindy - we don't grind for gear like other MMOs require.

Quote

Anet provided players with the perfect flexibility and freedom to experiment any build, and now they're releasing a way to remove that perfect feature, only to force people to farm again.

If they keep this trend, people might end up seeing this game as just another WoW clone instead of something unique worth playing.

If devs are doing this hoping to attract more WoW players, they should be reminded that GW2 doesn't have the same WoW strong endgame scene (what attracts WoW players in the first place), that can't be built just by bringing new WoW players in.

[Polar.8634]

as compensation i don't need skins, gems or whatever i only need set of legendary new runes and relic thanks.

If i wanted something else i would get it instead of investing time in crafting lege runes. Invalidating player's invested time would be worst thing to do in mmo, ever.

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, Polar.8634 said:

as compensation i don't need skins, gems or whatever i only need set of legendary new runes and relic thanks. If i wanted something else i would get it instead of investing time in crafting lege runes.

Yeah the compensation has to be right but I do hope that the current legendary runes will be transformed to the new runes because otherwise you wouldn't be able to use them at all. That would be a very bad move indeed on the side of Anet. I think that at least the people who have all 6 legendary runes would deserve a free legendary relic.

But Anet already talked compensation. Let's wait to see what that looks like before we start judging I'd say.

1 hour ago, Polar.8634 said:

Invalidating player's invested time would be worst thing to do in mmo, ever.

Yeah cause that never happens in MMOs...

[Polar.8634]

1 minute ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Yeah cause that never happens in MMOs...

one of reasons i play gw2 and not other mmo is horisontal progression and convenience legendaries give. 

Since i started playing this game legendaries were never invalidated, instead being promoted and top end game reward/goal to achieve.

6 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

But Anet already talked compensation. Let's wait to see what that looks like before we start judging I'd say.

not judging, just saying what i expect to see here, since they did not plan this and now they decide what to do.

[Polar.8634]

btw, gw2 efficiency says to craft 7 lege runes i need roughly 2360 gold. If i were to buy this much gold for gems, i would need roughly 9500 gems or 118 USD. 

A note to understand the scope of this issue. almost 5 times the worth of coming expansion.

[Sobx.1758]

On 7/2/2023 at 5:21 AM, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Devs operate on data and gameplay feedback.  Not speculation from a handful of players in the forums before the xpac is even launched.

On 7/2/2023 at 6:43 AM, DeathPanel.8362 said:

I expect most players will focus on playing a single playthrough of the story quests with a single character first.  By the time that's done, there should be a sufficient number of relics in the trading system to purchase.  Unless the components to craft a relic is time-gated I don't expect availability to be an issue.

Now I don't know anymore, is speculation ok or is it not?

The sole fact that we already got a response from anet about relics and it's not a specific response with a solution to the concerns raised by the players, but instead "we'll look into it" (not really complaining about that response, it's good they're looking into it) hints that they might have indeed not thought it all out. And if only because of that, the speculation from the users worried about the decreased value of the costly legendary runes they acquired seems to be rather well placed.

[DeathPanel.8362]

10 hours ago, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

The whole idea of leg runes was to be rid of that need to re-grind.

Get rid of the need to re-grind RUNES, not some new equipment being added to the game which some of the mechanics of runes were nerfed and shifted to.

Nowhere did ANET promise that runes will never be changed. 

[Polar.8634]

3 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Get rid of the need to re-grind RUNES, not some new equipment being added to the game which some of the mechanics of runes were nerfed and shifted to.

Nowhere did ANET promise that runes will never be changed. 

following this logic anet can delete all your gold and say nothing to do now, we dont use gold now, we have new better currency, they never said they will never change gold

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Given the size of this thread, I'd expect official statement on this matter tommorow on main page or somewhere in the forums.

[DeathPanel.8362]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What's the point of that speculation if you don't expect the change anyways?
And you objectively don't know what anet can or can't change at this specific point before the release, so not sure there's any -valid- point in repeating that guess.

Again, reading comprehension.  My point was at this close to release they're not going to make design decision changes unless it's due to some showstopper.  It's my opinion as are the words of everyone else here.  It's an informed opinion based on my subject matter expertise.  Nowhere did I say I had absolute knowledge that this is what will happen.

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 minute ago, Polar.8634 said:

following this logic anet can delete all your gold and say nothing to do now, we dont use gold now, we have new better currency, they never said they will never change gold

ANET can do whatever it wants.  It can close the game down tomorrow and lock everyone out.  It's their game.  There were never any promises of permanence.

[Polar.8634]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

ANET can do whatever it wants.  It can close the game down tomorrow and lock everyone out.  It's their game.  There were never any promises of permanence.

technically, but if they want also get money for what they sell they should not fail customer expectations *cough.."too much" .. cough*

they provide service and i pay money. Same relation as your doctor. Imagine that your doctor can also do whatever he wants. But does he do whatever he wants? probably not.

[Pifil.5193]

3 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Again, reading comprehension.  My point was at this close to release they're not going to make design decision changes unless it's due to some showstopper.  It's my opinion as are the words of everyone else here.  It's an informed opinion based on my subject matter expertise.  Nowhere did I say I had absolute knowledge that this is what will happen.

Cool, so this issue could be that showstopper that causes them to make design changes.

Kinda like the changes to Unidentified Gear that they made in the two months between announcing the Path of Fire expansion and it releasing.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Polar.8634 said:

technically, but if they want also get money for what they sell they should not fail customer expectations *cough.."too much" .. cough*

they provide service and i pay money. Same relation as your doctor. Imagine that your doctor can also do whatever he wants. But does he do whatever he wants? probably not.

Your statement was based on whether ANET can do something, not will.

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Again, reading comprehension.  My point was at this close to release they're not going to make design decision changes unless it's due to some showstopper.  It's my opinion as are the words of everyone else here.  It's an informed opinion based on my subject matter expertise.  Nowhere did I say I had absolute knowledge that this is what will happen.

Again, you don't know what they can or can't changed in what time before the release, all you have here are blind guesses. If you have any "subject matter expertise" you'd know that to make the claim you're trying to make, you'd quite literally need to work for the company you're talking about since release scheduling differs based on more than one thing.
You nowhere said you had absolute knowledge that this is what will happen, but you already decided it's not possible anything will change pre-release. And that's exactly what I'm commenting on. You don't know what they can or can't still do before the release, that's it.

5 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Get rid of the need to re-grind RUNES, not some new equipment being added to the game which some of the mechanics of runes were nerfed and shifted to.

Nowhere did ANET promise that runes will never be changed. 

So directs nerfs are not ok, but removing things to offload them into """new""" things where you put the old stats or functionality into is ok? Current RUNES include both stats AND 6-rune bonuses. People crafted runes for those stats AND bonuses. Nerfing items while offloading those bonuses into "something else now" doesn't make it somehow ok and I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 minute ago, Pifil.5193 said:

Cool, so this issue could be that showstopper that causes them to make design changes.

Kinda like the changes to Unidentified Gear that they made in the two months between announcing the Path of Fire expansion and it releasing.

I doubt it.  Showstoppers are problems that cause the core mechanics of the content to fail or the game itself to fail.  Problems with pricing on certain equipment aren't showstoppers.  Effects being shifted off of Runes to Relics and making a tiny portion of the player base disgruntled aren't showstoppers.

If Relics cost too much then likely they'll be toned down just like Skyscales were initially in the weeks after release.

If Legendary Rune owners need more compensation then maybe they'll send additional Relic boxes to those people.

[Polar.8634]

3 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Your statement was based on whether ANET can do something, not will.

 

10 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

ANET can do whatever it wants.

as answer to your statement which is based on whether ANET can do something, not will. lol

 

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Given the size of this thread, I'd expect official statement on this matter tommorow on main page or somewhere in the forums.

I don't know if you saw that because it's buried on page 5, but this is the response we have for now:

 

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Again, you don't know what they can or can't changed in what time before the release, all you have here are blind guesses.

They're not blind guesses.  They're educated guesses.  I work as a lead dev in my area of expertise.  Changes don't get made this close to release unless they're showstoppers.