Weaponmaster Training Beta Feedback: Engineer

[EdwinLi.1284]

One issue a lot of people mentioned is how Sword is having issues working outside of Holosmith the most. It is average in strike damage from what certain amount of players tested but it lose a decent amount of DPS due to not utilizing the +20% damage boost from 50% or Higher heat part. It will take a lot of trial and error to make sword work above average which I will be doing a lot once the Expansion is fully released and everything been set since I have been wanting to try making a hybrid strike/condition build using sword and pistol with Engineer for a while but with Elite Spec restrictions removed on sword it opens up more options beyond just Holosmith.

The design of this Main weapon is specifically for Holosmith due to how dependent it is one Heat when not in Holo Mode. 
A adjustment to the Sword should be added when players are not using Holosmith Elite Specialization where the +20% damage boost from 50% and higher Heat into something new. 

Maybe change it to a Might Buff gain when not using Holosmith or change it to some kind of Condition when not using Holosmith though I think it being Burn condition will match the theme of the weapon since the concept of the Main Hand Sword is literally a lightsaber but certain people may think Burn condition is maybe too much so Bleed may become the default result. Of course they may have it apply extra stack of Vulnerability instead. 

It has also been said for a long time that Holosmith should gain some kind of Heat bonus for all Weapons as well. It opens up more to the other Main Weapons when playing as the Holosmith's high risk and reward style. 

[Bomboed.5697]

On 7/15/2023 at 6:30 PM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

One issue a lot of people mentioned is how Sword is having issues working outside of Holosmith the most. It is average in strike damage from what certain amount of players tested but it lose a decent amount of DPS due to not utilizing the +20% damage boost from 50% or Higher heat part. It will take a lot of trial and error to make sword work above average which I will be doing a lot once the Expansion is fully released and everything been set since I have been wanting to try making a hybrid strike/condition build using sword and pistol with Engineer for a while but with Elite Spec restrictions removed on sword it opens up more options beyond just Holosmith.

The design of this Main weapon is specifically for Holosmith due to how dependent it is one Heat when not in Holo Mode. 
A adjustment to the Sword should be added when players are not using Holosmith Elite Specialization where the +20% damage boost from 50% and higher Heat into something new. 

Maybe change it to a Might Buff gain when not using Holosmith or change it to some kind of Condition when not using Holosmith though I think it being Burn condition will match the theme of the weapon since the concept of the Main Hand Sword is literally a lightsaber but certain people may think Burn condition is maybe too much so Bleed may become the default result. Of course they may have it apply extra stack of Vulnerability instead. 

It has also been said for a long time that Holosmith should gain some kind of Heat bonus for all Weapons as well. It opens up more to the other Main Weapons when playing as the Holosmith's high risk and reward style. 

Sword heat bonuses should be baseline (with some adjustments, of-course).
Holo should have an universal heat bonus as a part of heat mechanic that will work with all weapons.

Done. It is not something difficult to do, tbh.

[EdwinLi.1284]

On 7/19/2023 at 2:05 PM, Bomboed.5697 said:

Sword heat bonuses should be baseline (with some adjustments, of-course).
Holo should have an universal heat bonus as a part of heat mechanic that will work with all weapons.

Done. It is not something difficult to do, tbh.

It should be easy but sometimes the easy things are the hardest to do as they say. 

Either way Holosmith getting special Bonus for Heat on all weapons should have been something from the start. It may add some unique gameplay design based on what kind of Heat bonus each weapon gains.

Then the part for accounting the loss of heat bonus when using Sword outside of Holosmith. It will need something new to replace the loss of that +20% Damage buff.

[Dirame.8521]

From my theorycrafting: Weaponmaster won't actually add a lot of new "builds" just new "playstyles".  People will be playing the same old Core Engie just now you can use a hammer! And the same old Holosmith but now you can use a Hammer! Its nice but, not what I was expecting really. If there are new traits coming then new builds are definitely going to appear.

That said, the one thing that I think would really inject new build variety in conjunction with this change is if you devs choose to make it so that we don't have to pick the Holosmith trait line to be a Holosmith. To explain what I mean: Give us the ability to change into Holo and then choose any 3 core engie trait lines or Holosmith line(s) (excluding the other Specializations). I think that would really open up the build diversity on all classes with the inclusion of Weaponmaster.

[Rezzet.3614]

the upcomming Shortbow sounds  like a huge tonedeath insult  to engineers for almost a decade we have been calling out  that we got no  viable AoE dps  option for  WvW  because of all the anti projectile , how about   Making mortar  shots not count as a projectile , at least the 2 through 5  skills ?

 

is the shortbow gonna be like the old mine kit and we get to toggle between explosive cluster arrows or something ?

[Bomboed.5697]

On 7/21/2023 at 6:13 AM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

It should be easy but sometimes the easy things are the hardest to do as they say. 

Either way Holosmith getting special Bonus for Heat on all weapons should have been something from the start. It may add some unique gameplay design based on what kind of Heat bonus each weapon gains.

Then the part for accounting the loss of heat bonus when using Sword outside of Holosmith. It will need something new to replace the loss of that +20% Damage buff.

It is very easy just to make an universal heat bonus that is a part of heat mechanic itself, not a part of the weapon. Just like "+X something per Y of Heat". With such effect, when you play Holo it will be applied to any weapon you are using, including Kits.
While Sword Heat bonuses should be turned into baseline functionality of the Sword, so it would work outside of Holo's heat mechanic. Lets be real, without those bonuses Sword is pretty lame and only them are making it somewhat good. It will not make Sword OP if these bonuses will always work.

[EdwinLi.1284]

15 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

It is very easy just to make an universal heat bonus that is a part of heat mechanic itself, not a part of the weapon. Just like "+X something per Y of Heat". With such effect, when you play Holo it will be applied to any weapon you are using, including Kits.
While Sword Heat bonuses should be turned into baseline functionality of the Sword, so it would work outside of Holo's heat mechanic. Lets be real, without those bonuses Sword is pretty lame and only them are making it somewhat good. It will not make Sword OP if these bonuses will always work.

well it is very much a given that any strike damage weapon should just be given based +20% increase in damage when above 50% and condition weapons given extra stack of condition when above 50% heat. 

As for sword outside of Holosmith, the increase in base damage to be what it is at that +20% bonus is just something that should be a default since it is purely a Strike weapon. Though they can just modify it when not being used by Not Holosmith to provide something else like guarantee Might or a condition like Torment, Burn, confusion, or bleed. Only reason, I am guessing, they do not adjust sword outside of Holosmith is fear that it may become "better" than when using it with holosmith since it also already apply Vulnerability. 

Mace is a decent weapon, as a example, that can be used for both strike, condition, or hybrid due to its design. The confusion applied adds a bit of cover for any strike damage lost due to going pure strike but provide just enough condition for a pure condition build as well. If I remember right, Mace actually has a high base damage than sword. Sword obviously need to be redjusted for a while to have higher base damage atleast to be equal to Mace. Mace may actually produce higher strike damage output than sword that has that 50%< heat bonus.

Mechanic wise for sword, I feel they can make it a bit more unique outside of Holosmith or atleast adjust it a bit with something else but still function with both Holosmith and Non-Holosmith elite specs if they do not plan to give us that +20% damage boost from heat (in a certain way) outside of Holosmith. I think one way for this is to give the Sword a addition effect to make it cause explosive damage basically turning it into a mini-Storm version of the Holoforge default attack. 

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Now back on topic for shortbow....

I am curious what role will it play. Tech arrow seems the most likely design choice as it is a most common Engineer thing when it comes to bows and arrows but will it be Power based, Condition based, or a Hybrid (Mace is a hybrid weapon that can fit into both Power, condition, or hybrid design builds).

Not to mention function since it may focus on more direct damage performance or something else.

Considering Engineer been wanting a new Range Main weapon for long time after years of getting only Melee weapon additions, there is certainly a level of expectations higher than the other profession's new weapons.

Edited July 26, 2023 by EdwinLi.1284

[AlPower.2476]

Engineer is starting to feel weak in PvE... again

Literally the only worth weapon, hammer, feels weak in the current stronger power option, Holosmith.

[Kalibri.5861]

Hammer feels underwhelming to me on holo, sort of surprisingly. I was expecting to like it a lot more, but it's sidelined for rifle again. I probably just need to train with it more (I don't play scrapper so haven't spent time with it), but yeah, it really does not feel anywhere near as smooth, even compared to sword/shield. Alas.

I do really like that they took the heat mechanic into consideration and baselined some buffs into sword for non-holo specs. That was thoughtful. I'm not sure what they did is precisely the best option, but I'm glad they did something to make it more viable. Kudos, balance crew.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Kalibri.5861

[SeTect.5918]

Mace is kinda meh on both condi mechanist and condi holo.

Mace 3 triggers an attack of the mech on mechanist. Sword skills got buffed when used by other elite specs, mace should too.

What is even the whole point of confusion on mace now since confusion got nerfed to the ground. 

Either buff confusion again or give mace other conditions please to make it any useful as a condition weapon. Which Was seemingly the Plan before you killed the confusion condition and therefore the whole weapon for condition builds and its even more useless on other specs than mechanist.

 

Please buff mace in general and while not using mechanist e spec. 

[Axelteas.7192]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:01 PM, Dirame.8521 said:

From my theorycrafting: Weaponmaster won't actually add a lot of new "builds" just new "playstyles".  People will be playing the same old Core Engie just now you can use a hammer! And the same old Holosmith but now you can use a Hammer! Its nice but, not what I was expecting really. If there are new traits coming then new builds are definitely going to appear.

That said, the one thing that I think would really inject new build variety in conjunction with this change is if you devs choose to make it so that we don't have to pick the Holosmith trait line to be a Holosmith. To explain what I mean: Give us the ability to change into Holo and then choose any 3 core engie trait lines or Holosmith line(s) (excluding the other Specializations). I think that would really open up the build diversity on all classes with the inclusion of Weaponmaster.

Anet never will give us nice things...

I want the holo-mode and the company of a mech... do you think how overpowered it would be?

[Dirame.8521]

17 hours ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

Anet never will give us nice things...

I want the holo-mode and the company of a mech... do you think how overpowered it would be?

That's not what I was asking for. What I was asking for is to be able to use 3 core trait lines and still be able to be Holosmith or 3 Core trait lines and still be able to be a Mechanist.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Dirame.8521

[Voramoz.6790]

The biggest issue with all weaponmaster training has been addressed by every streamer/youtuber/Influencer. Teapot said it, Nike said it, Laranity said it, etc. Weaponmaster training flattens the plane for weapons so that there is generally a best in slot for each class based on the type of damage whether power, condi, or support. The answer moving forward is not to buff or change the DPS of weapons to keep weapons viable. The answer moving forward is, as influencers have said, to move supportive options onto weapons to make them more viable. No class needs a DPS competition between weapon sets, such as Engi Rifle vs Hammer. What classes need is compelling boons and support styles of gameplay on different types of weapons that allow them to tailor their class to each encounter.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Voramoz.6790

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, Voramoz.6790 said:

The biggest issue with all weaponmaster training has been addressed by ever streamer/youtuber/Influencer. Teapot said it, Nike said it, Laranity said it, etc. Weaponmaster training flattens the plane for weapons so that there is generally a best in slot for each class based on the type of damage whether power, condi, or support. The answer moving forward is not to buff or change the DPS of weapons to keep weapons viable. The answer moving forward is, as influencers have said, to move supportive options onto weapons to make them more viable. No class needs a DPS competition between weapon sets, such as Engi Rifle vs Hammer. What classes need is compelling boons and support styles of gameplay on different types of weapons that allow them to tailor their class to each encounter.

100% this.

Tho I think some weapons really need buffs that are like far weaker than the other ones (like maces on warrior compared to lets say axes on warrior). But once they got some more damage the answer is to give them something unique to make each weapon viable somewhere. I also wrote that somewhere here in the forum but i dont remember where.

Its just the only solution to this mess because if weapon A becomes 1% stronger than weapon B, weapon B will be used by like nobody anymore.