Weaponmaster Training Beta Feedback: Engineer

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

The Weaponmaster Training beta event for Secrets of the Obscure is open to all Guild Wars 2 players from June 29 until July 2! Try out the combat changes that are coming with SotO on August 22 and let us know what you think. You can leave your feedback for the engineer in this thread.

[santenal.1054]

Good, now turn the elite skill slot into a multipurpose utility/elite skill slot. That would really make things intresting. 

[Jerus.4350]

Excited for this but I really hope they do something to address the heat modifications on Sword, otherwise it’s not going to see use anywhere outside Holo and likewise Holo will likely not use anything else either.

hScrapper Mace is a given.  Hammer core power and pMech have me interested (almost certainly better). Don’t see myself doing anything else regarding the new match-ups. 
 

EDIT RECAP: so turns out hammer Holo ain’t bad at all, didn’t think it would be as close to ECSU sword as it’s looking .  Core and mech power builds going hammer was a given.  HScrapper mace is pretty busted, but I don’t hate that, yes quick becomes even free-er but it already was and might/prot/fury are the sticking points.  
 

That’s what I saw that was good from the Beta.  But, what about the bad.  

Sword as predicted is pretty bad.  I think it could be fixed with baking in the 50 heat modifier, and while that sounds like a big buff to Holo… not really, at least in PVE, little extra if you’re playing poorly but generally you want to avoid sword under 50 heat and even under 100 heat, so I don’t see much of a gain for a more competent Holo player.

 

RIFLE! we had a major rework and even though rifle still wasn’t all that great it was the best option and it was fun.  Then rifle changed again and now rifle has a bugged extra long aftercast animation on the auto.  If the animation can’t be fixed (I’d prefer it was) could we get a ~15% damage buff to compensate?  Also that’d still have it pretty well behind hammer.  I don’t think some damage buffs to blunderbuss or jump shot would be out of line either.  
 

Hammer changes things, but isn’t Ele war horn levels of damage, it just makes pcore Engi compete (if it owns expansions to get weapon mastery), makes pMech not be less than most support builds, and gives Holo a PBM trait power option (roughly the same dps as ECSU sword).  I think it makes more sense to push rifle and sword towards hammer than the reverse, especially considering how much Scrapper already relies on the current balance of hammer.  
 

Overall fun beta, fun idea, and I’m sure the devs were fully aware that necessary numbers tweaks were going to come out of it 😅

Edited July 11, 2023 by Jerus.4350
Beta recap

[Kiro Kobra.6478]

I'm curious to try Hammer Holosmith 🙂

[Zzik.5873]

HealScrapper is running mace for sure, power holo probably giving this good old hammer some swing, the sword outside holo... hmm not sure... even now I struggle to see holo using sword, hammer seem better, but if you really want to use holo with shield, I think mace would probably be more intresting for the shorter cooldown on the leap and the great cc on skill 3. That said power sword will probably give an higher DPS than mace, so thats that.

[Kolzi.5928]

I am very surprised they decided to go with another 2hand weapon instead of offering a proper power offhand. Engineer offhands are so weird. Cool, but weird.

I would never have expected a shortbow, but they could certainly do some interesting things with it - like attaching weird inventions to arrows so you can place them far away.

[The Boz.2038]

Heat needs be on more weapons than just sword.

There, didn't even need to wait for the weekend for this piece of feedback.

[Woop S.7851]

For the Engineer weapons, they're all melee ranged (Mace, Sword, Hammer)

In WvW:

• Holosmith likely will still depend on melee burst DPS/Potions/Stealth in WvW roaming
• Scrappers will still be the bunker heal in tight WvW Zergs
• Mechanists will be for PvE?

Note that this update also consists of:

• Rangers: 1500 range Longbow/Staff (DPS + mobility)
• Thieves: 1500 range Rifles (DPS + Stealth)

Am going to play the devil's advocate here..

Similar to Necros, how can an Engineer survive in a 1v1 scenario in WvW? Or is singled out by snipers? If the answer is Holosmiths can't reach target, or Scrappers can only be bunker heals, wouldn't that mean these melee weapons don't offer any way to counter such scenarios? Hence restricting this professions' dynamic role in WvW? 🤔

[Dawdler.8521]

16 minutes ago, Woop S.7851 said:

For the Engineer weapons, they're all melee ranged (Mace, Sword, Hammer)

In WvW:

• Holosmith likely will still depend on melee burst DPS/Potions/Stealth in WvW roaming
• Scrappers will still be the bunker heal in tight WvW Zergs
• Mechanists will be for PvE?

Note that this update also consists of:

• Rangers: 1500 range Longbow/Staff (DPS + mobility)
• Thieves: 1500 range Rifles (DPS + Stealth)

Am going to play the devil's advocate here..

Similar to Necros, how can an Engineer survive in a 1v1 scenario in WvW? Or is singled out by snipers? If the answer is Holosmiths can't reach target, or Scrappers can only be bunker heals, wouldn't that mean these melee weapons don't offer any way to counter such scenarios? Hence restricting this professions' dynamic role in WvW? 🤔

Not sure where the restriction comes from. Elites can still use p/p or rifle...

The only thing you got right is the thief. With the change we can see core thief, daredevils and spectres with the rifle. Which may or may not be kittened up in WvW roaming.

Rangers already use lb/gs to fly away, having staff change nothing.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Kaibamon.7206]

Sword 1 still has heat but if I'm a mechanist I can't generate it, so it's a useless stat. I think what you can do is add in the holosmith trait itself as an unlock this heat power on weapons, not just swords. I'd love to do more dmg or some extra abilities on my mace or hammer or pistol.

Hammer in general feels fine to use and mace is ok

But this is really where I realize something, we kinda don't have that many offhand weapons as engies. Instead of that short bow can we get something else like some off hand swords or maces?

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Kaibamon.7206

[MrForz.1953]

Well, as expected. Holosmith is still one hell of a source of synergistic trouble with all the other weapons.

Sword simply isn't worth the usage anywhere else but Holosmith because Mace crushes it on pretty much all aspects

There's some interest in running Mace on Scrapper/Core and Hammer on Mechanist/Core but that's it.

Edited June 29, 2023 by MrForz.1953

[Luthan.5236]

Tried this only for a few minutes - same with back then when the EoD elite specs were on beta. I wait for others to give feedback ... then working with the final product to incorporate stuff into my build maybe.

Can't really see the sword useful on any other e-spec (because I think the heat additional boni are just ignored there ... they don't use heat). Hammer seems nice on mecha + melee mech. Tried a bit the hammer.

Funny thing: For mesmer I tried as  bit as well - it actually allows to use 2 (since the restrictions are remove completely ... not like you have to set one of the weapon proficiencies in a specific slot ... allowing the char to use one) things from other elite. Axe (mirage) + shield (chrono) on a virtuoso. Not that that would make any sense lol.

I'd really love to see that the engineer can use 2 real weapon sets. (= now allowing weapon swap in combat) ... now that we get more. Looking forward to the new weapon that is not in this beta yet I think. High range really is missing. As a guy that has to do with technical stuff it is weird that the rifle has 1200 and for other classes they have 1500 (like someone mentioned above). And the shortbow probably only 900 or so.

Would like to combine the short bow with something melee (maybe hammer) ... and maybe no kits. They should make it that - at least if you  use no kits - the weapon swap in combat (2 "real" weapon sets) is enabled.

[Calen.8945]

My initial thoughts so far:

Mace on Scrapper is as good as I always dreamed. I have a feeling that the devs moved the mace's barrier to [mace 2] so the other classes didn't get out of control with barrier spam. Even still, I was getting shields for days. However, with the changes to scrapper quickness, it's quite hard to keep quickness up with a mace.

Sword is fine on the other classes, it can do it's job without it's heat passive, but unless you are holosmith the mace is still the best single handed melee weapon.

Holosmith with hammer is good, but that's more do to with the hammer being good on it's own and the holo going in and out of forge.

With mech, I can't fine much of a reason to use sword, but hammer works just fine. Nothing overly good or bad about it.

[Aldran.8574]

Initial toughs:

Sword needs to either be remade or give something to the other sub-specs outside of holosmith. From what I see 2 and 3 both lost any mention of heat mechanics. Skill 1 still references it in the tooltip but there are no actual buffs.

Hammer is good. Nothing surprising there. It was always a good weapon.

I would also consider the following still in the scope of the beta:

Pistol needs a look at. Off-hand has no issues technically because we have no alternative, but main hand is hurting. Condition mace seems to be the go to now. There might be an argument for pistol in PvP, but mace provides confusion which usually comes ahead in that content.

Rifle range should also be looked into. Hammer now competes with it for all the sub-specs of engineer.

[bambi.6214]

Weapons on engi are so boring and similar it's honestly barely impacted in wvw. Holo with a hammer? Exactly 1 leap and a lightning field make it different from sword/shield... Mace is pretty useless and that's about it.

[Suishou.9381]

12 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Heat needs be on more weapons than just sword.

I abolutely CANNOT believe they haven't done it yet, it's literally the perfect time to add it to other weapons, they even said stuff like ''As a fun bonus, this means we’re also introducing a few new skills for edge cases like berserker’s Primal Burst while wielding a dagger, or the untamed’s Unleashed Ambush while wielding a staff". Come on Anet, let's be consistent.

[inci.3705]

Rocket Fist Prototype (Engineer Mace 3) does not appear to stun (tested in WvW on core and mechanist).

 

Bug report:

 

[Decinomicon.4619]

Something needs to be done about holosmith sword and heat, as long as it has the heat mechanics on other specs its going to be useless outside of holosmith

[Bomboed.5697]

There is literally no reason to use Sword outside of Holo due to its heat dependence.

Solution:
1) Make Sword heat bonuses baseline. They are not so powerful to make it broken.
2) Add a new effect to Holo's heat mechanic: adds +X% power and condi damage per Y% of Heat. This effect will universally work with any weapon, which will create more build options for Holo.

And please, rework Pistols. They are so outdated and bugged.

Bonus: with new weapon options Engineer will be better with a normal weapon swap. Give Engi a second weapon and put some limitation on Kits.

[shion.2084]

Please don’t give hammer to classes like Holo.  Scrapper needs it to compensate for its own inherent short comings and intended role.  If you give it to Holo with its damage bonuses you will then have to nerf hammer.  You’ve managed to nerf scrapper 4 times in a row, while making revs immortal, dead eyes kill with 2 steals, warriors permanently quick and eles able to have teams entirely composed of just eles.

Scrapper gains no benefit from sword because the weapon is purposefully useless without heat and balanced around that.

 

I mean honestly just think this through for once

Edited June 29, 2023 by shion.2084

[coro.3176]

8 hours ago, Aldran.8574 said:

Pistol needs a look at. Off-hand has no issues technically because we have no alternative, but main hand is hurting. Condition mace seems to be the go to now. There might be an argument for pistol in PvP, but mace provides confusion which usually comes ahead in that content.

Off-hand pistol needs a serious buff in WvW. You can land both of its skills perfectly, and they basically don't affect a fight at all, even in small scale fights. Mainhand too.

In WvW, skills need to be balanced with the assumption that all opponents are *constantly* cleansing (because they are), so it doesn't matter if a burn duration is 5s, or15s. It always gets cleansed after 2 ticks.

Also, the CC on pistols really doesn't measure up to the CC on Hammer or Rifle.

Edited June 30, 2023 by coro.3176

[DragoTheWise.7256]

I for sure like having hammer available to the other specs along with mace giving heal scrapper a much better option. Sword seems to be a bit weak outside of holo since it relies on the heat mechanic. Maybe a scrapper could use it to generate extra self quickness but that's all I can think of right now.

I think it would be nice to try to look at getting what weapons we do have to interact with the heat mechanic for holosmith. I always thought it was odd that it was only done on sword but other professions get other weapons to have a spec's mechanic added in such as ambush skills.

[AlPower.2476]

Sword: Is a by far a bad weapon for the rest of specs and core; due to his heat mechanic. In all game modes.

Mace: (PvE) Tried it in Condi Holo rotation and Condi Core rotation and it was almost the same as Pistol/Pistol. Now with confusion changes I know that even in a real scenario it won't change so much. Maybe with that weapon, the rotation would be different. (PvP) I think that Double Pistol stills the best for Condi Core. Condi Holo with mace/shield is a little better than pistol/shield. But well; we all know that Condi Core and Condi Holo are super bad comps for PvP if we see how strong are the rest of specs right now. For Scrapper; I think that Hammer still the best option since it's not a condi spec. So I think mace needs more AoE options in order to be worthly. Edit: I read from Stalima that Mace gonna be a good option for Support Scrapper due to 6 leap sec. He's 100% right so; mace here gonna be great. 

Hammer: (PvP) The only weapon that was "good" for all specs and core. Hammer Core is better than Rifle Core (stills a poor option). Hammer Holo I think has  potential for PvP if the overperforming specs gets balanced. Haven't tried Mech; but I think it has potential either. (PvE): I wasn't able to find a good power rotation for Core and Mech (I don't know if the reason is that simply it doesn't exist or I wasn't enough for it). Power Holo was "decent"; I mean, Sword's DPS stills the best, but Hammer isn't bad at all.

In any case; the problem with engineer is the lack of options. We have a smaller variety of weapons across all classes in the game. And we have no weapon swap. So; even with all those weapons unlocked (that most of them doesn't have any kind of sinergy, like the sword); we're not going to be able to have so much diversity unlike the rest of specs. Even Elementalist could do that better, since their attunement mechanic is his core mechanic. Engineer in the other hand has kits; kits that are getting nerfs every patch, like toolkit for PvP/WvW in the recently one 🙂. So we have 3 options:

1) Rework weapons to fit in all specs well.

2) Enable weapon swap for engineer.

3) Stop nerfing kits and buff them instead. (Hello, toolkit, medkit and mortar kit)

Edited June 30, 2023 by AlPower.2476

[Alcatraznc.3869]

-The sword is underwhelming when not used as a Holosmith. 

-The mace changes made it whatever now. I was seeing some potential as a support weapon for Scrapper but as it is right now, it is a minuscule improvement. A very very small one.

 

Overall I dont have much things to say about Engineer's weapon. None of them stands out outside of their spec and the sword is straight up bad. I can exactly say I wasnt expecting it but....It feels like Engineer is the class that ends up beneficing the least from that change. It is pretty ironic considering we're talking about core engineer technically getting like 3 additionals weapon (which is double the amount of weapon engineer can use without counting underwater weapon). I dont feel the same excitement as seeing a hammer Weaver or a rifle Daredevil or even a dagger Mirage.  It ends up feeling bland

[Bomboed.5697]

All of that just proves that Engineer itself requires a huge rework. There are just too many design problems in this class.
But it will never happen, because devs hate engineers. They nerf any fun part in it, they refuse to fix broken stuff for years, they don't even want to put as much effort into it as they do for other classes. For example, they create new abilities for Warrior and Ele to make E-spec weapons to work with all specs, while they refuse to make Holo's heat mechanic to work with all weapons and to make Sword to work outside of Holo.

STOP ENGINEERS HATE!

Edited June 30, 2023 by Bomboed.5697