Weaponmaster Training Beta Feedback: Thief

[SlayerXX.7138]

12 hours ago, Strutter.2719 said:

Staff doesn't really work on deadeye either because it's not a consistent initiative spender or stealth weapon - which is a shame because staff is already very singular in purpose

I think people sleep on staff deatheye. Because they are good players, chasing max dps. Staff getting unbounded from bound is great. Staff deatheye is not a bad deatheye, With OiC and BQoBK it is basically a daredevil dps without forced movement and free dodges to use on mechanics instead of dps. With an Quickness build that uses the same cheap gear. Also a good stepping stone into normal deatheye or Daredevil. I hope it catches on and when enough people start playing it in PvE Anet start to fix all the things we can't mark right now.

If they fix the initiative gain for scepter I'm sure it does something with m7.

I do agree with the rest. Especially Core thief on the power side will get no use out of the weapons. You can't beat all the damage modifier baked into Daredevil and deadeye. Also Pistol and rifle are very similar weapon to begin with.

Edited June 30, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[bq pd.2148]

40 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

If they fix the initiative gain for scepter I'm sure it does something with m7.

i am not sure scepter skills are balanced for the amount of ini one has with m7, staff being mostly AA doesnt have that issue. it will likely be too strong, yet any nerf to the combination would also have impacts on many other builds.

[SlayerXX.7138]

10 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i am not sure scepter skills are balanced for the amount of ini one has with m7, staff being mostly AA doesnt have that issue. it will likely be too strong, yet any nerf to the combination would also have impacts on many other builds.

Yeah that's the problem with weapon mastery. If it gets too good it will be nerfed anyway. With thief weapons so similar that is very apparent. If scepter does somethin cool, it just a raid friendly version of Pistol/dagger m7, not that exciting. Rifle sure is cool, but it just a better double pistol.

[nopoet.2960]

Played around with Deadeye scepter but the malice generation wasn't working.  That said, once it does work it seems like it will be cool alternative.  I can't really see myself playing rifle outside of deadeye.  There might be a core thief staff spec using the recent accro changes but I haven't played around with it yet.

You didn't ask for feed back on mainhad axe, but please consider some off-hand alternative.  Here is some ideas using torch.

Edited June 30, 2023 by nopoet.2960

[xellink.7568]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAoilRwQYHMH2IO2OptPA-zRRYfBpZGNcllRKJQIFg3TTKOrAVA-e

Scepter Daredevil - remember to Change Pistol  to Scepter

Edited June 30, 2023 by xellink.7568
Change Pistol  to Scepter

[Daniel Winner.8524]

Stripping away uniqueness of some weapons makes no sense. Thief needed new weapons in general, not free unlock of  those tied to some specs already. Rifle daredevil, scepter deadeye... it doesn't look like "an option'', it's just a mess caused by a lazy update. New offhand weapons were needed, not this. 

[Rahvan.3860]

Specter initiative is way too small to make anything reliable outside of scepter... 

[Meridian.9103]

I think i kinda made staff work on power specter as an open world build. It flows nicely when correctly alternating Staff, shroud and wells. The key is to take trickery with slight of Hand, which gets procced when entering shroud to refill initiative quickly.

Overall fun build with good cleave to run around and kill multiple mobs at once, but ultimately very lacking in single target damage potential. I don't think it's anywhere near viable in instanced or competitive content

Edited June 30, 2023 by Meridian.9103

[Rahvan.3860]

Specter has way too less initiative to be able use any weapon other than scepter, daredevil with rifle is fun but damage without malice is really low ( better use shortbow), tried core thief with staff + rifle, it's decent but again its better to pick deadeye or daredevil cause traits synergize better. I feel like thief kinda gets nothing good from these weapons.

[HeliosMagi.9867]

While Staff won't be replacing Daggers on Deadeye anytime soon, I can see taking it on my weapon swap for encounters where cleave would be better than the CC of an offhand pistol. Thief notoriously has terrible cleave outside of Staff, so leaning into that angle would probably be best.

What I would do is change Malicious Hook Strike to hit 5 targets around the user, and do double damage against the Marked Target. Maybe change the name to Malicious Hook Sweep, to make more thematic sense.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Personally I don't like the idea of having weapons you aren't specter for because it's already breaking lore which u had your team write up. It's lazy

[HeliosMagi.9867]

On single targets only thing Staff has over Daggers on Deadeye is stronger autos. On the BQoBK build with all boons and conditions, using Deadeye's Mark on cooldown but otherwise only using autos Staff averages 30k while Daggers do 27k. So if you need an even lower-intensity build than the regular build Staff's for you. Or you could swap to it if a mechanic puts Reveal on you, like if you get fixated by Samarog. So again it seems Staff works best as a supplement to D/D Deadeye rather than a replacement, use Daggers for high single-target DPS and swap to Staff if you need cleave or got revealed.

[Neokurgen.2798]

I agree, instead of giving us another elite spec, you give us the ability to use other elite spec weapons WITHOUT the traits that make those weapons useful. Then when the expansion releases, you give us an axe, main hand only?!  How about giving us other off hand weapons instead of just pistol or dagger?

[TheThief.8475]

Finals thoughts for me are as follows:

The idea is cool, but are you prepared for the work that needs to be done only to make this idea work in reality and be equally enjoyable for all professions?

Do you acknowledge that some classes will only need numbers tuning, while others need their badly designed specs to be revamped? I'm not ok with having this feature as it is now if Thief is going to be left in the state it is while other classes will see a lot of new builds and playstyles.

I'd rather have this feature not added to the game until you put in all the work needed to make the feature equally enjoyable for all professions. As a Thief player, I've always wanted more build diversity, and this is not going to add much interesting in the current state, Daredevil needs a profession mechanic that is an actual profession mechanic, the rifle needs changes, Shadow Shroud needs number tunings to accommodate power DPS build (as it is now shadow shroud is a DPS loss with any power build), plus many traits that need to be changed/ moved/ removed.

Are you willing to solve all the problems that come with this system in a way that is satisfying and respectful of your players?

Is this going to be the new staple and starting point, to make elite specs "playstyle defining" independently from the weapons that are used with that elite spec? 

Or will the feature be added and it is how it is?

 

Hopeful to hear from @Rubi Bayer.8493 and the dev team to fully understand your intentions with this system.

 

Please be honest with us, at least we can temper our expectations and not set ourselves up for disappointment.

Edited July 1, 2023 by TheThief.8475
Typo

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

For me this beta just enhanced my feeling that thief is lacking interesting weapon / trait / and mechanic combinations.

malice as a mechanic was cool, but thats actually it, and wasn’t working with scepter.

specter with siphon/shadow shroud does not synergies with other weapons at all, since there are no other support options, power weapons are useless as well.

another point is that we just got scepter as a combi-weapon for other specs/builds but does it really do another job than pistol mainhand (single target condi) if ignoring the support aspect? No.

rifle is fine in itself but it is to depending on the grandmaster traits of DE to work well. while staff is in my opinion a really boring weapon which is most efficient with spamming auto and 2.

with all this in mind thief isn’t getting anything „new“ with this addition unfortunately, at least that how i feel about it 😞

Edited July 1, 2023 by Felices Bladewing.3914

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

deleted double post - sorry

Edited July 1, 2023 by Felices Bladewing.3914

[Strutter.2719]

4 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

Finals thoughts for me are as follows:

The idea is cool, but are you prepared for the work that needs to be done only to make this idea work in reality and be equally enjoyable for all professions?

Do you acknowledge that some classes will only need numbers tuning, while others need their badly designed specs to be revamped? I'm not ok with having this feature as it is now if Thief is going to be left in the state it is while other classes will see a lot of new builds and playstyles.

I'd rather have this feature not added to the game until you put in all the work needed to make the feature equally enjoyable for all professions. As a Thief player, I've always wanted more build diversity, and this is not going to add much interesting in the current state, Daredevil needs a profession mechanic that is an actual profession mechanic, the rifle needs changes, Shadow Shroud needs number tunings to accommodate power DPS build (as it is now shadow shroud is a DPS loss with any power build), plus many traits that need to be changed/ moved/ removed.

Are you willing to solve all the problems that come with this system in a way that is satisfying and respectful of your players?

Is this going to be the new staple and starting point, to make elite specs "playstyle defining" independently from the weapons that are used with that elite spec? 

Or will the feature be added and it is how it is?

 

Hopeful to hear from @Rubi Bayer.8493 and the dev team to fully understand your intentions with this system.

 

Please be honest with us, at least we can temper our expectations and not set ourselves up for disappointment.

So much this. It really highlights that for thief at least, weapons without their specs and specs without their weapons just aren't great in most cases. 

 

Build diversity for thief has always been bottom tier and while there has been some improvement in that area with EOD, the new expansion doesn't appear to be adding to it at all. This is far from a worthy replacement for elite specs unless a lot of work is put in.

Weapons need to actually be useful on all elite specs and core.

Elite specs need to have unique mechanics and playstyles without their weapons.

On the bright side, if those two things happen then this feature will be a really great addition.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Strutter.2719

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:27 PM, Batalix.2873 said:

Thief could really use an OH weapon in addition to MH axe, especially since we never got an OH espec to change up dual attacks (which are largely underutilized with just dagger and pistol compared to the variety of extra attacks Mirage, Weaver, Untamed, and Berserker get). Give it OH axe or sword in addition to axe please thx.

 

(But also replace Necro OH sword with shield please. Give the OG healer/shielder/planter scholar a defensive OH.)

Focus

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 hour ago, Strutter.2719 said:

So much this. It really highlights that for thief at least, weapons without their specs and specs without their weapons just aren't great in most cases. 

 

Build diversity for thief has always been bottom tier and while there has been some improvement in that area with EOD, the new expansion doesn't appear to be adding to it at all. This is far from a worthy replacement for elite specs unless a lot of work is put in.

Weapons need to actually be useful on all elite specs and core.

Elite specs need to have unique mechanics and playstyles without their weapons.

On the bright side, if those two things happen then this feature will be a really great addition.

Instead of shadow meld I want gw2 Seeping Wound with the addition of Deep Wound if we get axe 🪓 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

2 hours ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

For me this beta just enhanced my feeling that thief is lacking interesting weapon / trait / and mechanic combinations.

malice as a mechanic was cool, but thats actually it, and wasn’t working with scepter.

specter with siphon/shadow shroud does not synergies with other weapons at all, since there are no other support options, power weapons are useless as well.

another point is that we just got scepter as a combi-weapon for other specs/builds but does it really do another job than pistol mainhand (single target condi) if ignoring the support aspect? No.

rifle is fine in itself but it is to depending on the grandmaster traits of DE to work well. while staff is in my opinion a really boring weapon which is most efficient with spamming auto and 2.

with all this in mind thief isn’t getting anything „new“ with this addition unfortunately, at least that how i feel about it 😞

They need to redo thief ground UP from release and work on the release day skills and traits. Until they get a grasp what the old skills and development team had in mind we won't get anywhere, this is why we need a PTS instead of beta characters.

[SlayerXX.7138]

5 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

rifle needs changes

Only death Judgment or do I miss something? Rifle as Initiative hungry double pistol analog seems fine? Death Judgment damage needs to be adjusted, probably around 2.5 power coefficient for non-deadeyes in PvE. As cost effective Stealth is bound to Dagger OH and deadeye, maybe they could add a unleashed ranger like effect on dodge. So if you dodge, your next Auto Attack becomes Judgment without putting you in stealth. Just put the damage of judgment low enough in competitive to not cause a Riot.

I guess vulnerability on the autos is a thing they need decide on if they want to give 2/3 or 1/2 for hitting unmarked targets and remove the tooltip.

[Batalix.2873]

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Focus

Only if Revenant and Ranger get focus first. Giving it to thief before either of those feels wrong to me.

Focus is primarily about magic and support. Thief is one of the least magically-inclined professions in the game, behind Engi and Warrior. And Thief is easily the most selfish profession as an identity, with only Necro coming close.

Both Rev and Ranger have stronger associations with both magic and support skills. I would rather those identities be bolstered more and Thief's emphasis on evasion and mobility capitalized first. Not giving priorities to weapon assignments that actually make sense and maintain profession niches is just going to further break down a lack of job fantasies in this game.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[TheThief.8475]

2 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Only death Judgment or do I miss something? Rifle as Initiative hungry double pistol analog seems fine? Death Judgment damage needs to be adjusted, probably around 2.5 power coefficient for non-deadeyes in PvE. As cost effective Stealth is bound to Dagger OH and deadeye, maybe they could add a unleashed ranger like effect on dodge. So if you dodge, your next Auto Attack becomes Judgment without putting you in stealth. Just put the damage of judgment low enough in competitive to not cause a Riot.

I guess vulnerability on the autos is a thing they need decide on if they want to give 2/3 or 1/2 for hitting unmarked targets and remove the tooltip.

I think rifle also need an easy stealth access in the kit. What's the point of tuning death judgement if you can't use it? You won't be able to have enough stealth access to use death judgement without DE traits/ utilities.

Stealth access on deadeye is either: stolen skill (with 5 or + malice) utilities (cantrips, DE elite skill) or the trait that gives stealth then you dodge roll with a rifle equipped. 

Or as you said they need to come up with a new way to be able to cast death judgement without stealth (but I don't think they will do something like this tbh)

Edit: double pistol skill 3 has 5 ini cost but gives back 2 ini at the end of a full cast, so it costs 3 ini and cast time is 1 and a half second while rifle 3 is 4 ini with 3/4s cast time (ini is consumed much quicker with rifle)

Edited July 1, 2023 by TheThief.8475

[SlayerXX.7138]

25 minutes ago, TheThief.8475 said:

I think rifle also need an easy stealth access in the kit. What's the point of tuning death judgement if you can't use it? You won't be able to have enough stealth access to use death judgement without DE traits/ utilities.

You can't give rifle easy stealth access, stealth is to powerful. If you want to stealth you can use deaths advance or use bound in the smoke field of rifle 4. Or use an utility. If you are hell-bent to repeatable press Judgment just play deadeye.

26 minutes ago, TheThief.8475 said:

Or as you said they need to come up with a new way to be able to cast death judgement without stealth (but I don't think they will do something like this tbh)

  You are probably right, but would be nice. They also could just buff auto a little so dps doesn't drop off a cliff.

29 minutes ago, TheThief.8475 said:

double pistol skill 3 has 5 ini cost but gives back 2 ini at the end of a full cast, so it costs 3 ini and cast time is 1 and a half second while rifle 3 is 4 ini with 3/4s cast time (ini is consumed much quicker with rifle)

I think that is a good thing. If rifle becomes double Pistol+ we gained 0 weapons with the mastery. Playing a lot Staff/rifle it was quiet fun to drain ini with rifle, then switch to AA with stuff.

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Flobings.7251]

10 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

Shadow Shroud needs number tunings to accommodate power DPS build (as it is now shadow shroud is a DPS loss with any power build), plus many traits that need to be changed/ moved/ removed.

This 100%

Came up with the best Power Alac Specter build I could: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAUxrlhyUZXMM2IW2WXRdA-zRRYbhE6GOqv+QKkWCh2SgKqAbnldPjAA-e

(Bow is place holder for staff)

While it does provide full Alac, Fury, Vigor, Swiftness, 5 might & good CC it's dps numbers just don't stand up against other classes that do even more. Now I'm not a hardcore tester but after a few hours of playing with it I was getting maybe 18k dps while other power alac classes are benching at 26k(renegade & mech) - 36k(willbender).

Pretty standard example: https://imgur.com/CwBaPQT

Even with a full zerk dps setup I was getting ~20k (up to ~22.5k if I dropped Trickery for Deadly arts) compared to other power dps classes sitting in the 40s.

- The -3 Initiative for taking the specter line just makes it so we have to take trickery to counter it. Without this we might be able to take Deadly Arts to squeeze out a few thousand more dps but this would still not touch other builds.

- The shroud abilities seem far too heavily weighted on the condi side with no good button to press for strike damage. Which makes going into shroud to apply alac a damage loss, a sacrifice that condi alac specter does not need to make.

I didn't test rifle but as another 2h power weapon I suspect the same thing would play out.

- Not related to Weapon Master but power utilities are meh. Well of Tears feels like pitfall v1.5 & signets are really the only other thing to take. 

 

Love the idea of opening up weapon selection but most of the thief options are underwhelming.