Expansion: Pre-Order, Wail Till Launch to Purchase or Not Purchasing

[Balsa.3951]

3 hours ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

That's got the be one of the most disingenuous responses I've ever seen.

A toxic group is going to be toxic whether they ask for kp or not. They're going to be toxic whether they're elite or not. First of all, elite is not something negative. Second, I've seen toxic groups that were far from efficient in raids. Third, toxic people are everywhere. That doesn't mean everything they do is by definition also toxic.

Ice Golem? That's your practical example? Nobody needs to be carried for that, since it's extremely easy even with inefficient builds. People don't ask for kp to do Ice Golem. They ask for kp because they also do the more difficult strike missions during that same run, which do require knowledge and experience of your class and the fight.

And what does the fact that some players soloed one or two raid bosses have to do with anything? Those are outliers, exceptions and not the rule. Most raid bosses simply can't be soloed because of the mechanics of the fight. And soloing a raid boss, which always entails fighting it in enraged mode for the majority of the fight, is something a very small amount of players do to challenge themselves. The people who do low-man runs are min-maxers, who want to squeeze every last drop of skill out of themselves to defeat a challenging encounter. They're the ones who do speedruns. They do not represent the entirety of the raid community, nor is that the only way they do raids. You will find these people in training guilds as well, teaching others. And not even with the expectation that they will all one day be at their level, because that's not even the eventual goal. Most raiders I know personally through the 2 statics I've been a part of don't even have that ambition. They just want to clear challenging content with friends, or pugs who aren't toxic and demand the best of the best.

Raids are where they are now because continued interest in the content didn't merit the resources invested. There weren't enough people doing them. Strikes are easy compared to raids, all of them. It's only the CM's that are on raid level and you'll find the same small number of people doing those on a weekly basis as was the case with raids. If all strikes were only on normal mode the raid community in GW2 would have dwindled to next to nothing. If all strikes were like their CM modes, strikes would go the same way as raids. Apparently people also don't like longer instances so now we are stuck with single boss strikes with very little story, the same story you also get by playing the game's actual storyline.

Your response sounds like it's based on a subjective personal experience, not years of clearing the content.

i know truth hurts but u Raiders see the results u got now.

GL with asking KP in the future ur wall of text doesn't change what happened to Raids.

[Batalix.2873]

I have to agree with the Necrosanct.

While some blame could be placed on early raiders solidifying a really rigid meta, a large part of that was just because (a) raids were legitimately hard content (which is much less the case now that the game has power crept a lot) and (b) the game hadn't released a second set of especs as alternatives to the HoT specs (and then never really did).

The real problem is that challenging content generally just doesn't have a very large market. The only MMOs that have gained a large playerbase inevitably pandered to "filthy casuals"--i.e. massively simplifying/streamlining combat and buildcraft to eliminate the ability for players to choose poor builds, and elsewise focusing resources more on aesthetic/community features than on complicated encounter design.

And the thing is, back in the oughts and early 2010s, of course GW2 had initially gone into development with the mindset of catering to the focused, small demographic that enjoyed MMOs. The idea of a "casual MMO" wasn't really a thing back then, so there was no reason to sacrifice focus/identity for accessibility/mass appeal. It was only after FFXIV really started gaining traction that GW2 started to really feel like it was behind, and I am sure that was what had an effect on the massive layoffs in 2020, and the subsequent redirection of the game since.

But blaming it on the raiders really misses that entire point. The game doesn't do raids anymore because, given limited resources, it had to choose between challenging its core playerbase or appealing to a broader casual market. And of course NCSoft/ANet went with the money.

Do raiders kinda suck? Yeah, a lot do. Not remotely the whole issue here though. As with most of this game's problems, ESH.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[FiveBunnies.5730]

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

But blaming it on the raiders really misses that entire point. The game doesn't do raids anymore because, given limited resources, it had to choose between challenging its core playerbase or appealing to a broader casual market. And of course NCSoft/ANet went with the money.

No. The main playerbase of GW2 is exactly what casual gamers are. 

(I mean, GW2 guides you through the story very carefully.  Enemies are not very strong.  Allies will help you up if you fall.  Mechanics are introduced gradually and explained in detail. Death has no bad consequences.  Any player can help you up.  The locations are full of stuff to collect by searching every corner.  It's all been since the game's start, and it appeals to casual gamers who just want to have a good time. And it is rare in other games.  So I really think casual players have become the main playerbase very quickly.) 

Edited July 3, 2023 by FiveBunnies.5730

[Batalix.2873]

6 minutes ago, FiveBunnies.5730 said:

No. The main playerbase of GW2 is exactly what casual gamers are. 

A dev team with the aims of making a purely casual game would not have made raids (or arguably PvP or WvW). For at least some period of GW2's development, casuals were not the only target demographic.

[FiveBunnies.5730]

2 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

9 minutes ago, FiveBunnies.5730 said:

No. The main playerbase of GW2 is exactly what casual gamers are. 

A dev team with the aims of making a purely casual game would not have made raids (or arguably PvP or WvW). For at least some period of GW2's development, casuals were not the only target demographic.

Not the only one, but the main one.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

11 hours ago, FiveBunnies.5730 said:

No. The main playerbase of GW2 is exactly what casual gamers are. 

(I mean, GW2 guides you through the story very carefully.  Enemies are not very strong.  Allies will help you up if you fall.  Mechanics are introduced gradually and explained in detail. Death has no bad consequences.  Any player can help you up.  The locations are full of stuff to collect by searching every corner.  It's all been since the game's start, and it appeals to casual gamers who just want to have a good time. And it is rare in other games.  So I really think casual players have become the main playerbase very quickly.) 

The reason GW2 has such a large amount of casual gamers is because the open world is designed that way and gets by far the most development. It was never meant to be a game solely for casual gamers, though. If you go back to old interviews with devs it's been clear that challenging content was always supposed to be a part of the game. There's never not been challenging content in game and they keep developing it as well, just in different forms. Dungeons were hard back in the day, before any expansions were released, except for the hardcore dungeon crowd. Fractals were harder than they are now (CM's excluded, but for a long time there were no CM's in Fractals; somehow, when they raised Fractals from 50 levels to 100, it got easier). Raids are universally known for being challenging content in any game, so it wasn't going to be any different here (relatively speaking, of course). And now we have strike mission CM's. It's clear that ANet values this part of the playerbase, at least to some extent (because development on said content is very low). But the main focus has and will always be open world, so it's only logical that they draw in players who are into that kind of content.

[Ashen.2907]

6 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

The reason GW2 has such a large amount of casual gamers is because the open world is designed that way and gets by far the most development. It was never meant to be a game solely for casual gamers, though. If you go back to old interviews with devs it's been clear that challenging content was always supposed to be a part of the game. There's never not been challenging content in game and they keep developing it as well, just in different forms. Dungeons were hard back in the day, before any expansions were released, except for the hardcore dungeon crowd. Fractals were harder than they are now (CM's excluded, but for a long time there were no CM's in Fractals; somehow, when they raised Fractals from 50 levels to 100, it got easier). Raids are universally known for being challenging content in any game, so it wasn't going to be any different here (relatively speaking, of course). And now we have strike mission CM's. It's clear that ANet values this part of the playerbase, at least to some extent (because development on said content is very low). But the main focus has and will always be open world, so it's only logical that they draw in players who are into that kind of content.

In interviews prior to launch ANet stated that the game had raids, they just called them explorable dungeon paths, but always considered them to be this game's version of raids. Of course they susbsequently realized that explorable dungeons were not up to the taks of filling the role of raids in GW2 so they developed new, harder, instanced content.

but harde(er) core play was always meant to be part of the game.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

12 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

i know truth hurts but u Raiders see the results u got now.

GL with asking KP in the future ur wall of text doesn't change what happened to Raids.

What results? I still raid on a weekly basis. Most LFG's still ask for KP. It's not a problem finding a group to clear raids with. In comparison, try this with dungeons, whose LFG category is mostly empty. Raids might not be in as good a place as they used to be, but it's still content that's actively played by more than a handful of people, all week long, 8 years after they were introduced.

Also, how does generalization work for you? Lumping all people who raid under the same moniker of toxic elitists is disingenuous, uninformed and shows bias. It's okay. I know not everyone has positive experiences with raids. But that can just as much be due to expectations. There's 2 parts to this equation: the experienced raider and the newbie. Putting the responsibility of the problems you mentioned squarely on the experienced raiders is the disingenuous part. It shows you don't have much experience with the thing you make your claims about.

[Balsa.3951]

14 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

What results? I still raid on a weekly basis. Most LFG's still ask for KP. It's not a problem finding a group to clear raids with. In comparison, try this with dungeons, whose LFG category is mostly empty. Raids might not be in as good a place as they used to be, but it's still content that's actively played by more than a handful of people, all week long, 8 years after they were introduced.

Also, how does generalization work for you? Lumping all people who raid under the same moniker of toxic elitists is disingenuous, uninformed and shows bias. It's okay. I know not everyone has positive experiences with raids. But that can just as much be due to expectations. There's 2 parts to this equation: the experienced raider and the newbie. Putting the responsibility of the problems you mentioned squarely on the experienced raiders is the disingenuous part. It shows you don't have much experience with the thing you make your claims about.

well u can go YouTube make a video how u join a raid with no kp. love to watch make it real and fail a mechanic at start. 

if u still in the raid after that more power to ur words.

but maybe explain why IBS strikes asking for LI ? that's obviously trying to gate keeping easy content. 

kill proof and all this stuff.

who cried the most when other ways to obtain legendary armor was introduced?

u can say if anything i said didn't happen. even a new raid wing 1 day old i see lfg exp only.

Raids are dead bcs the community tried their best to make it a not all welcome thing.

U see this part about experienced Raiders u wrong. the experienced Raiders where not expierenced at all. many lack the skills to do fractals cm. but they still felt the need to ask ppl show kill proof for the easiest stuff.

but ya i will wait ur YT video. would be great if that works

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Balsa.3951

[FiveBunnies.5730]

27 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

The reason GW2 has such a large amount of casual gamers is because the open world is designed that way and gets by far the most development. It was never meant to be a game solely for casual gamers, though. If you go back to old interviews with devs it's been clear that challenging content was always supposed to be a part of the game. There's never not been challenging content in game and they keep developing it as well, just in different forms. Dungeons were hard back in the day, before any expansions were released, except for the hardcore dungeon crowd. Fractals were harder than they are now (CM's excluded, but for a long time there were no CM's in Fractals; somehow, when they raised Fractals from 50 levels to 100, it got easier). Raids are universally known for being challenging content in any game, so it wasn't going to be any different here (relatively speaking, of course). And now we have strike mission CM's. It's clear that ANet values this part of the playerbase, at least to some extent (because development on said content is very low). But the main focus has and will always be open world, so it's only logical that they draw in players who are into that kind of content.

Well, apparently the casual open world was made more successfully than the hardcore part of the game, so GW2 attracted more casual players than hardcore players. So the casual players are the main player base. So now it's all for us! 

[Ashen.2907]

22 minutes ago, Balsa.3951 said:

why IBS strikes asking for LI ? that's obviously trying to gate keeping easy content.

No that is not gatekeeping the content it is gatekeeping that person's group. Since the content could still be played without joining that particular group, very much in the minority in terms of their requirements, it is not, by definition, gatekeeping.

We all, or at least everyone I know, "gatekeep," access to our groups. Last time a guy spouting racist and misogynist BS tried joining my group he got kicked almost immediately....you see we all get to choose who want to play with, and its not a bad thing.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

1 minute ago, Balsa.3951 said:

well u can go YouTube make a video how u join a raid with no kp. love to watch make it real and fail a mechanic at start. 

if u still in the raid after that more power to ur words.

but maybe explain why IBS strikes asking for LI ? that's obviously trying to gate keeping easy content. 

kill proof and all this stuff.

who cried the most when other ways to obtain legendary armor was introduced?

u can say if anything i said didn't happen. even a new raid wing 1 day old i see lfg exp only.

Selective reading, eh? Well, let me try one more time.

It's not difficult joining a raid without kp. First of all, there are the training guilds. Nice that you ignore that part, but you're not getting away with that. And if you'd actually looked at the raid LFG these days you'd see LFG's that don't ask for kp. So it's actually become easier to join a raid without kp. I see training runs in LFG. I see people asking for experience but not proof through kp. I mean, it's nice you want to participate in a discussion about something you have little experience with, but at least try to do your homework.

People ask for LI in strikes because they prefer playing with people of similar skill level. That is not an exceptional occurence. You'll find this in many aspects of life. And once again, there are also LFG's who don't ask for LI or any kind of kp, so what's the problem? Just join those groups and leave the ones who ask for certain skill levels be. No one is forced to take anyone they don't want. People are free to choose who they want to play with and who they don't want to play with. As long as they aren't kittens about it. But saying asking for kp is a symptom of toxicity is objectively false. I've said it before and I'll say it again here: toxic people will be toxic anywhere, no matter the circumstances. Their behavior is not contingent on the kp.

Did some people cry when OW legendary armor was announced? I'm sure some were. Haven't seen that sentiment represented that much, though. And I certainly don't mind OW legendary armor. Heck, I'm even going to get that armor, even though I've had full legendary armor in all weights for years, because I like the skins.

I've been saying that the things you claim aren't representative of the actual situation. I can say it as many times as I want, but I get the feeling you don't want to listen to it, because you keep repeating the same talking points, even when they've been refuted.

[Balsa.3951]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

No that is not gatekeeping the content it is gatekeeping that person's group. Since the content could still be played without joining that particular, very much in the minority in terms of their requirements, it is not, by definition, gatekeeping.

We all, or at least everyone I know, "gatekeep," access to our groups. Last time a guy spouting racist and misogynist BS tried joinokg my group he got kicked almost immediately....you see we all get to choose who want to play with, and its not a bad thing.

ofc no one can block u from raiding but even when u join a small group of established player they are the majority in this area. and when the individual comes along and can't show what u can only get when u raid. it becomes the joke of sign with a pen if u want a pen. 

so 10 nubs need come together start raiding to even get a chance to learn from exp raiders.

yes some angels offer training. 

[Balsa.3951]

3 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

Selective reading, eh? Well, let me try one more time.

It's not difficult joining a raid without kp. First of all, there are the training guilds. Nice that you ignore that part, but you're not getting away with that. And if you'd actually looked at the raid LFG these days you'd see LFG's that don't ask for kp. So it's actually become easier to join a raid without kp. I see training runs in LFG. I see people asking for experience but not proof through kp. I mean, it's nice you want to participate in a discussion about something you have little experience with, but at least try to do your homework.

People ask for LI in strikes because they prefer playing with people of similar skill level. That is not an exceptional occurence. You'll find this in many aspects of life. And once again, there are also LFG's who don't ask for LI or any kind of kp, so what's the problem? Just join those groups and leave the ones who ask for certain skill levels be. No one is forced to take anyone they don't want. People are free to choose who they want to play with and who they don't want to play with. As long as they aren't kittens about it. But saying asking for kp is a symptom of toxicity is objectively false. I've said it before and I'll say it again here: toxic people will be toxic anywhere, no matter the circumstances. Their behavior is not contingent on the kp.

Did some people cry when OW legendary armor was announced? I'm sure some were. Haven't seen that sentiment represented that much, though. And I certainly don't mind OW legendary armor. Heck, I'm even going to get that armor, even though I've had full legendary armor in all weights for years, because I like the skins.

I've been saying that the things you claim aren't representative of the actual situation. I can say it as many times as I want, but I get the feeling you don't want to listen to it, because you keep repeating the same talking points, even when they've been refuted.

when did i ignored training guilds?

u assume a lot about my experience let me assume that i have more AP and skills than u. so what now all u do is show how u look down on ppl who disagree with u.

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, Balsa.3951 said:

ofc no one can block u from raiding but even when u join a small group of established player they are the majority in this area. and when the individual comes along and can't show what u can only get when u raid. it becomes the joke of sign with a pen if u want a pen. 

so 10 nubs need come together start raiding to even get a chance to learn from exp raiders.

yes some angels offer training. 

You said IBS strikes. I responded to that claim. I do strikes every day. The number of LI/KP requirement groups for IBS strikes (not counting people trying to create a static CM group) that I have seen I can count on one hand....out of many thousands of groups in LFG.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[Balsa.3951]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

You said IBS strikes. I responded to that claim. I do strikes every day. The number of LI/KP requirement groups for IBS strikes (not counting people trying to create a static CM group) that I have see I can count on one hand....out of many thousands of groups in LFG.

I can count % of raiders on 1 hand too 🙂

any how agree to disagree numbers proofing me right tho

[Ashen.2907]

Just now, Balsa.3951 said:

I can count % of raiders on 1 hand too 🙂

any how agree to disagree numbers proofing me right tho

No, the numbers do not prove you right about LI/KP requirements in IBS strikes. You are exaggerating and fabricating your examples.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

10 minutes ago, Balsa.3951 said:

when did i ignored training guilds?

u assume a lot about my experience let me assume that i have more AP and skills than u. so what now all u do is show how u look down on ppl who disagree with u.

I don't look down on people who disagree with me. I don't look down at you either. I don't assume anything about your experience. I drew a conclusion based on what I've seen in raid LFG's for years and your claims, which do not correspond to the reality of the situation. So the logical conclusion is that you don't engage in raids enough to have an objective view of what state it is in right now. You lump the entire raiding community under one common banner, namely the toxic elitist banner, and that is also objectively false.

You want to talk about assumptions? You assume you have more skills than I do. That is indeed an assumption because you have nothing to base it on. The AP thing, though, doesn't even have to be an assumption. FYI, I checked and yes, you do have more AP than I do. I have 40,345 and you have 41,400. All that proves is you've done more achievements than I have. Doesn't say anything about which achievements, which content or what skill level you are. And therein lies the problem with your comments. You shout a few random things and insert a few random arguments that suit your narrative, but your arguments have been refuted at every turn, and not just by me. Sticking to your position while others provide you proof and insight in how your arguments and conclusions are faulty is often a sign of bias based on a gut feeling. Every time I've encountered someone like this in my 46 years on this planet it has turned out to be this way. But I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt by not flat out stating you're negatively biased towards that part of the community that likes to be challenged in their gameplay. But keep on going with this narrative and I have no choice but to conclude this is exactly what's going on here.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

18 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

i know truth hurts but u Raiders see the results u got now.

GL with asking KP in the future ur wall of text doesn't change what happened to Raids.

Yes, because only Raiders are toxic... Asking for KP killed Raids.. but magically Fractals are unaffected by the same practice.
People always ask for proof of experience, whether it is AP at the start of the game, LI/Boss decor in Raids, Chest, UFE, whatever. Don't act like open world content didn't have such requirements by people. Looking at you Marionette.

Both sides show toxicity, regardless if it's demanding everyone know the encounter or demanding that the group carries you through.

[Dante.1508]

I pre ordered mostly for the spec stuff and weapons.

[FiveBunnies.5730]

11 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Yes, because only Raiders are toxic... Asking for KP killed Raids.. but magically Fractals are unaffected by the same practice.
People always ask for proof of experience, whether it is AP at the start of the game, LI/Boss decor in Raids, Chest, UFE, whatever. Don't act like open world content didn't have such requirements by people. Looking at you Marionette.

I play fractals tier 1-3, and no one no ever asked me for KP or analog. Maybe players ask it on tier 4, but tier 1-3 fractals are friendly and not toxic. Magical, yes!

[DoomNexus.5324]

I will buy it somewhere at a discount, not gonna pre-order.
The bonus is probably as bad as in EoD (the fire serpent weapons all look meh for example, even the skiff isn't really that nice compared to some shop skins shortly added after release).

Metas and everything else important will most likely be reworked several times anyway and I'm not really interested in the story, so I'm in no rush.
Idk, GW2's storytelling has really dropped off after the core campaign imo. I don't really like having everything voice acted and animated either if I'm honest.. That's just so much production value that could've gone into making actually playable content..

[Balsa.3951]

18 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Yes, because only Raiders are toxic... Asking for KP killed Raids.. but magically Fractals are unaffected by the same practice.
People always ask for proof of experience, whether it is AP at the start of the game, LI/Boss decor in Raids, Chest, UFE, whatever. Don't act like open world content didn't have such requirements by people. Looking at you Marionette.

Both sides show toxicity, regardless if it's demanding everyone know the encounter or demanding that the group carries you through.

ok i explain, when u have a big group it can survive toxic minority who set walls to join groups ( join the community) But when u have a small group this toxic behavior pushes even more ppl away bcs ppl have less choice its KP Li or go home. group get smaller and smaller till only a small group of raiders are in than Pikachu face that no new raider join and raids die.

not so hard to understand, but again ignore that a Barrier does what a barier do usually

Edited July 4, 2023 by Balsa.3951

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

12 minutes ago, Balsa.3951 said:

ok i explain, when u have a big group it can survive toxic minority who set walls to join groups ( join the community) But when u have a small group this toxic behavior pushes even more ppl away bcs ppl have less choice its KP Li or go home. group get smaller and smaller till only a small group of raiders are in than Pikachu face that no new raider join and raids die.

not so hard to understand, but again ignore that a Barrier does what a barier do usually

And yet the bigger group whines more about toxicity and then devolves into toxicity when complaining about toxicity. Don't pretend casuals are all sunshine and rainbows, you can just look at literally any Dragon's End, early HoT TD, MARIONETTE topics or even all of the "X instanced content is hard" topics. 

7 hours ago, FiveBunnies.5730 said:

I play fractals tier 1-3, and no one no ever asked me for KP or analog. Maybe players ask it on tier 4, but tier 1-3 fractals are friendly and not toxic. Magical, yes!

T4 is ~25/75 between groups asking for KP and "just know what to do" groups.

[Balsa.3951]

3 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

And yet the bigger group whines more about toxicity and then devolves into toxicity when complaining about toxicity. Don't pretend casuals are all sunshine and rainbows, you can just look at literally any Dragon's End, early HoT TD, MARIONETTE topics or even all of the "X instanced content is hard" topics. 

T4 is ~25/75 between groups asking for KP and "just know what to do" groups.

u delute from the topic i tell u why Raids are dead they are minority content and they attract min maxer toxics.

i don't see all the other contents be dead u mentioned.

but ya tell urself that Raiders are welcome everyone

Edited July 4, 2023 by Balsa.3951