Can we get new off-hand instead of Axe main Hand?

[Matty.6751]

I feel like I can't be the only person who wants a new off-hand for thief.

 

Couple ideas..

Torch: For Tombraider vibes, also a fire combo field is fun when paired with Pistol and, Rifle or Short Bow on weapon swap. 

Focus: As a defensive option. Dagger main-hand and this on off-hand plays well for more of a Trickster archetype. 

Axe (off-hand): I'd be ok with this, at least now I have more options other than pistol or dagger.

 

The only issue I can think of for the Devs is that they would have to add more Dual-wield skills (extra ones for Sword and Scepter). So an additional 2 skills I believe. 

If you could pick, what off-hand would you like for thief?

[TheThief.8475]

47 minutes ago, Matty.6751 said:

I feel like I can't be the only person who wants a new off-hand for thief.

 

Couple ideas..

Torch: For Tombraider vibes, also a fire combo field is fun when paired with Pistol and, Rifle or Short Bow on weapon swap. 

Focus: As a defensive option. Dagger main-hand and this on off-hand plays well for more of a Trickster archetype. 

Axe (off-hand): I'd be ok with this, at least now I have more options other than pistol or dagger.

 

The only issue I can think of for the Devs is that they would have to add more Dual-wield skills (extra ones for Sword and Scepter). So an additional 2 skills I believe. 

If you could pick, what off-hand would you like for thief?

I did a pool some days ago and results are: about 85% prefer an off-hand over a main-hand (70-80 votes total)

But hey Anet is the boss...

[Fueki.4753]

I want to see offhand sword for Thief.

But since they seem be against giving Thief more dual skills, I doubt we'll see it (or any new offhand weapon) any time soon.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Vinny.7260]

I'd love to see Axe offhand specifically. Axe generally tends to be a cool weapon when it's offhanded. (Plus we only have 3 specs who can do it right now with Warrior, Revenant, and Ranger).

[Lightsbane.9012]

i wanted shield

[Rezok.2709]

I'm actually quite puzzled by the decision. While I completely disagree about their choice of not just giving us axe/axe, at least I understand where they are coming from with the whole dual skill thing (not that the argument makes much sense when looking at elementalist). But sure, when we think about how the dual skill can be defining for a whole new build, I understand that introducing both might be overkill in terms of builds it creates due to the nature of how the thief works with initiative.

I also understand why we didn't get an off-hand previously. The elite specs have been treated almost as a sub-class, more than just a new trait line. They needed to give us main-hand / two-hand weapons because they could not realise the gameplay of those "sub-classes" with just an off-hand. We had no weapon that would actually make Specter work. We had no long range weapon to make Deadeye work.

But now there is no elite spec, literally just a new weapon. This is the perfect time to introduce a new off-hand to thief. And I'd argue it is actually the choice that would bring the most "content" from the least amount of work. They would need to design two skills alongside four dual skills. This is just one more skill than they need to design for a MH weapon. But they'd give us so much more potential in builds.

By giving us a MH weapon, they essentially give us potential for two new builds (one with each of our off-hands). But if they gave off-hand axe, we would get potential for four new builds, one for each MH. Essentially doubling the potential by just designing a single more skill. And it even makes it better down the line, when they introduce a new MH again, they just need to design a single additional skill, but they'd also open up potential for one additional build.

It just puzzles me because it seems like not giving us a new off-hand is shooting both the player and themselves in the foot.

[draxynnic.3719]

I do have a theory regarding why it's axe, actually:

Specter is currently a little too dependent on scepter - not just for supporting an ally, but because DPS specter is often dependent on Torment for damage and/or shadow force generation. Other thief weapons just don't even come close to scepter for torment generation. This tends to lock specter into a stale configuration of either having Sc/D and /P, or running Sc/ and /X for Quick Pockets - a playstyle that also doesn't really feel all that thiefy.

Adding another mainhand that dishes out a fair amount of Torment, ideally in melee with cleaving, would give specter a viable alternative to scepter, either as part of a second set or possibly even replacing it entirely. While still bringing a new option for condi thieves of other builds.

A third offhand would certainly be nice to have, and before I considered the line of thinking above I was firmly in Team "Give us an offhand you cowards!" If this does turn out to be the purpose of MH axe, though, then I think we have a situation where the mainhand weapon is a solution to an observed problem. Meanwhile, a new offhand would only be a nice to have - we want it to have more options, but I'm not sure that there is a clear issue that requires a new offhand apart from thief not having enough offhand choices.

[TheThief.8475]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I do have a theory regarding why it's axe, actually:

Specter is currently a little too dependent on scepter - not just for supporting an ally, but because DPS specter is often dependent on Torment for damage and/or shadow force generation. Other thief weapons just don't even come close to scepter for torment generation. This tends to lock specter into a stale configuration of either having Sc/D and /P, or running Sc/ and /X for Quick Pockets - a playstyle that also doesn't really feel all that thiefy.

Adding another mainhand that dishes out a fair amount of Torment, ideally in melee with cleaving, would give specter a viable alternative to scepter, either as part of a second set or possibly even replacing it entirely. While still bringing a new option for condi thieves of other builds.

A third offhand would certainly be nice to have, and before I considered the line of thinking above I was firmly in Team "Give us an offhand you cowards!" If this does turn out to be the purpose of MH axe, though, then I think we have a situation where the mainhand weapon is a solution to an observed problem. Meanwhile, a new offhand would only be a nice to have - we want it to have more options, but I'm not sure that there is a clear issue that requires a new offhand apart from thief not having enough offhand choices.

What would stop them from picking say dagger/axe dual wield skill and pump a lot of torment damage there?

Edited July 11, 2023 by TheThief.8475

[itspomf.9523]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Adding another mainhand that dishes out a fair amount of Torment, ideally in melee with cleaving, would give specter a viable alternative to scepter, either as part of a second set or possibly even replacing it entirely. While still bringing a new option for condi thieves of other builds.

Please no.  We already have daggers for melee conditions, and scepter is just a sad excuse to make Pistols 3.0: the Return of the Son of Rifle.

Honestly, while the ill-conceived weaponmaster nonsense lets staff replace sword by providing better movement and utility-oriented power damage, axe would better serve by being a middle-ground, providing a one-handed raw Power-DPS weapon which thief currently lacks.

(But yes, off-hand would be best because the class is horridly languishing as it is)

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

What would stop them from picking say dagger/axe dual wield skill and pump a lot of torment damage there?

Optics aside, it still wouldn't have torment application on the autoattack.

4 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

Please no.  We already have daggers for melee conditions, and scepter is just a sad excuse to make Pistols 3.0: the Return of the Son of Rifle.

Honestly, while the ill-conceived weaponmaster nonsense lets staff replace sword by providing better movement and utility-oriented power damage, axe would better serve by being a middle-ground, providing a one-handed raw Power-DPS weapon which thief currently lacks.

(But yes, off-hand would be best because the class is horridly languishing as it is)

Staff is already melee power DPS. Sword is melee power DPS, although it could probably do with a bit of a buff. Dagger does pretty well at melee power DPS despite having some condis due to Backstab and Heartseeker being pure power and the autoattack still having pretty respectable coefficients. There's a reason thief was usually power until spectre, outside of the permastealth condi builds when they worked. So there's certainly more room and need for a MH weapon that focuses on melee condition damage than one that focuses on melee power.

[TheThief.8475]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Optics aside, it still wouldn't have torment application on the autoattack.

Torment application coming from Scepter auto attack is very bad anyways, and dagger has bleed + poison, which would still allow for a mixed condi build (poison from Deadly Arts, bleeding from Trickery, and torment from Specter, could totally work since there are runes and sigil that increase all condition damage (which is really good when you have 3 + different conditions that all deal a good amount damage).

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Staff is already melee power DPS. Sword is melee power DPS, although it could probably do with a bit of a buff. Dagger does pretty well at melee power DPS despite having some condis due to Backstab and Heartseeker being pure power and the autoattack still having pretty respectable coefficients.

On this topic I completely disagree; Sword will never be a competitive weapon in PvE until they add a new off-hand or rework the current dual wield skills:

• S/D dual wield skill is meant for PvP and the biggest damage portion is single target + deals more damage to target without boons + force movement, making it non-viable in high-end PvE.
• S/P dual wield skill has a stun in it and this means that its damage will never be raised enough to compete with staff 2, while the cast time is also higher and locks you in place.

Skill 4 and 5 for both pistol and dagger do not support Sword in dealing damage in any way:

• Pistol adds utility (not damage)
• Dagger 4 is almost useless except in 1 build (d/d DE with M7), dagger 5 gives access to stealth, but stealth attack with Sword is cringe;

A new off-hand could introduce a skill that solves these problems, with more raw damage without additional effects or forced movements/locking you in place (and possibly more cleave), and could easily work with DD and DE, maybe with Specter if they raise shroud skills power damage.

 

Dagger (in high-end PvE) works as a power weapon only with Deadeye, which boosts the damage of stealth skills with malice + Deadeye mark increasing all damage dealt by 15%, + trait increases damage by 1% for each boon you have;

• D/D dual wield skill (the strongest skill in the kit) deals condition damage, for this reason, there are more D/D condi builds, rather than power (condi DD, condi DE, with some balance could also work with Specter, while u only have power DE);
• D/P dual wield skill is meant for PvP, being a single target skill with multiple effects like 900 range shadow step and blind, it will never be buffed to deal competitive damage in high-end PvE.

Thanks to backstab being a very high power damage build, and off-hand Dagger having access to stealth, power DE works, but a new off-hand could give dagger a new power damage dual wield skill, allowing for more power damage build options (also with more cleave possibly)

Also, there are so many possibilities for those skills to be hybrid and also support condition builds, plus we didn't even talk about sceptre and pistol, which would also have a new dual-wield skill option!!

This is why everyone wants a new off-hand man

Edited July 12, 2023 by TheThief.8475

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

Torment application coming from Scepter auto attack is very bad anyways, and dagger has bleed + poison, which would still allow for a mixed condi build (poison from Deadly Arts, bleeding from Trickery, and torment from Specter, could totally work since there are runes and sigil that increase all condition damage (which is really good when you have 3 + different conditions that all deal a good amount damage).

Like it or not, Torment is a big part of why specter is pretty much locked to scepter. I'm not saying that axe is necessarily going to be all Torment - it could be a mixed conditions weapon like mirage mesmer axe - but a weapon that doesn't bring any torment at all is going to be hard pressed to displace Scepter. Running scepter on both swaps isn't a great feeling, but it's better than the alternative.

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

On this topic I completely disagree; Sword will never be a competitive weapon in PvE until they add a new off-hand or rework the current dual wield skills:

• S/D dual wield skill is meant for PvP and the biggest damage portion is single target + deals more damage to target without boons + force movement, making it non-viable in high-end PvE.
• S/P dual wield skill has a stun in it and this means that its damage will never be raised enough to compete with staff 2, while the cast time is also higher and locks you in place.

So your complaint is that sword will never be a competitive power weapon in PvE because staff will always be better. Even assuming that this is true, does this not just demonstrate the overall point I was making that a power melee weapon is already available, as the main problem you're presenting here is that the power weapons are already competing and that one is naturally going to be given less DPS as a tradeoff for greater CC?

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

Skill 4 and 5 for both pistol and dagger do not support Sword in dealing damage in any way:

• Pistol adds utility (not damage)
• Dagger 4 is almost useless except in 1 build (d/d DE with M7), dagger 5 gives access to stealth, but stealth attack with Sword is cringe;

A new off-hand could introduce a skill that solves these problems, with more raw damage without additional effects or forced movements/locking you in place (and possibly more cleave), and could easily work with DD and DE, maybe with Specter if they raise shroud skills power damage.

This touches on something I was thinking on myself - apart from the dual skills, offhand skills tend to be utility of some sort. I think this is deliberate and unlikely to change: thief offhands have to be useful regardless of which mainhand they're paired with (on any other profession, it doesn't really matter if, say, the melee offhand never gets used with a ranged weapon, but for thief, this would mean a dual skill that either never gets used or has to be so good that the other melee offhand skills don't need to be considered). This does work well with utility, but a melee damage skill on 4 or 5 wouldn't work well with a ranged mainhand, while a ranged damage skill would probably be undertuned in melee. This is probably the reason why the damage skills associated with offhands, if any, are the dual skills - it means that they can be tailored to work with the main hand.

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

 

Dagger (in high-end PvE) works as a power weapon only with Deadeye, which boosts the damage of stealth skills with malice + Deadeye mark increasing all damage dealt by 15%, + trait increases damage by 1% for each boon you have;

• D/D dual wield skill (the strongest skill in the kit) deals condition damage, for this reason, there are more D/D condi builds, rather than power (condi DD, condi DE, with some balance could also work with Specter, while u only have power DE);
• D/P dual wield skill is meant for PvP, being a single target skill with multiple effects like 900 range shadow step and blind, it will never be buffed to deal competitive damage in high-end PvE.

Thanks to backstab being a very high power damage build, and off-hand Dagger having access to stealth, power DE works, but a new off-hand could give dagger a new power damage dual wield skill, allowing for more power damage build options (also with more cleave possibly)

But you have to acknowledge that dagger still works as a power weapon? Which means that thief essentially has 2.5 power melee weapons (staff, sword, dagger) all competing with one another. There's always one that's going to win, although which one it is depends on the specialisation (DE wants something that will actually use malice stacks). Meanwhile, there's only dagger for melee condi. Dagger/dagger condi daredevil is currently a thing that exists (DB was considered to be bad for quite a while, though), but in competitive, condi thief usually means ranged. In the context where I was replying to someone asking for axe to be another melee power weapon, I think there's a lot more room for a condition weapon, especially one that inflicts different conditions, such as inflicting Torment. You could then have condi daredevil using D/D while specter uses axe to hack its way out of scepter jail.

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

Also, there are so many possibilities for those skills to be hybrid and also support condition builds, plus we didn't even talk about sceptre and pistol, which would also have a new dual-wield skill option!!

This is why everyone wants a new off-hand man

Oh, I'm not denying that there's potential in an off-hand. I suspect skills 4 and 5 would still be utility for the reasons described above, but they'd be different utility, and another dual skill for each weapon would certainly open up new playstyles.

I do think, though, that there is at least the potential that ArenaNet has identified specters being locked to scepter as a specific problem, and that axe as a Torment-oriented melee weapon serving as a direct solution to that problem was more urgent than finally introducing a third offhand, as awesome as that would be for deadeyes and daredevils.

[TheThief.8475]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Like it or not, Torment is a big part of why specter is pretty much locked to scepter. I'm not saying that axe is necessarily going to be all Torment - it could be a mixed conditions weapon like mirage mesmer axe - but a weapon that doesn't bring any torment at all is going to be hard pressed to displace Scepter. Running scepter on both swaps isn't a great feeling, but it's better than the alternative.

I was talking about axe off-hand here, so you would have poison and bleed from daggers and possibly torment + poison on the dual wield skill (similar to twilight combo). The point was that even with an off-hand axe, you can make a build that works with Specter -> there is no actual need to have a new main-hand weapon.

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

So your complaint is that sword will never be a competitive power weapon in PvE because staff will always be better. Even assuming that this is true, does this not just demonstrate the overall point I was making that a power melee weapon is already available, as the main problem you're presenting here is that the power weapons are already competing and that one is naturally going to be given less DPS as a tradeoff for greater CC?

1. My complaint is that Sword isn't good in PvE and never will be because of their dual wield skills being PvP-oriented (s/d) and PvP/utility-oriented (s/p). A new off-hand would give Sword a new dual-wield skill to make it viable in PvE;
2. Sword being viable in PvE is good (new build/playstyle -> more variety makes more people happy);
3. The same off-hand that could make Sword viable in PvE would also have 3 more dual-wield skills with dagger, pistol, and sceptre, supporting more builds/playstyles;

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This touches on something I was thinking on myself - apart from the dual skills, offhand skills tend to be utility of some sort. I think this is deliberate and unlikely to change: thief offhands have to be useful regardless of which mainhand they're paired with (on any other profession, it doesn't really matter if, say, the melee offhand never gets used with a ranged weapon, but for thief, this would mean a dual skill that either never gets used or has to be so good that the other melee offhand skills don't need to be considered). This does work well with utility, but a melee damage skill on 4 or 5 wouldn't work well with a ranged mainhand, while a ranged damage skill would probably be undertuned in melee. This is probably the reason why the damage skills associated with offhands, if any, are the dual skills - it means that they can be tailored to work with the main hand.

A new off-hand weapon could have skills of that same type, dual-wield skills are the most important anyways. They could totally grant utility in skill 4 and 5 and nothing would change (still allows to create new builds and playstyles). The most important utility to Thief is stealth, so they could give some sort of stealth access to the kit (through skill 4/5 or through a selected dual-wield skill where they want to support a stealthy playstyle)

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

But you have to acknowledge that dagger still works as a power weapon? Which means that thief essentially has 2.5 power melee weapons (staff, sword, dagger) all competing with one another. There's always one that's going to win, although which one it is depends on the specialisation (DE wants something that will actually use malice stacks). Meanwhile, there's only dagger for melee condi. Dagger/dagger condi daredevil is currently a thing that exists (DB was considered to be bad for quite a while, though), but in competitive, condi thief usually means ranged. In the context where I was replying to someone asking for axe to be another melee power weapon, I think there's a lot more room for a condition weapon, especially one that inflicts different conditions, such as inflicting Torment. You could then have condi daredevil using D/D while specter uses axe to hack its way out of scepter jail.

The fact is that for high-end PvE it's totally unusable as a power weapon except for DE. So what changes?

Thief also has 3 condi weapons: dagger, pistol, and sceptre. The only reason they don't work with Specter is that their current off-hand weapons don't provide any dual-wield skills that apply conditions like torment and poison (good on Specter).

 

Can't you see where I'm going? All these problems can be solved with a single new off-hand weapon:

• You have one more melee power option with sword-axe (and trust me a lot of Thief players can't wait to be able to play with Sword)
• You get out of sceptre jail on Specter with dagger/axe (while possibly also creating new builds for other specializations);
• You create more ranged options with pistol/axe (that could also support Specter builds), and sceptre/axe (consider that sceptre/axe could play totally differently from sceptre/dagger and actually be fun);

 

TLDR you don't need a new main-hand weapon to support the playstyles you described in your first post, and you can also support MORE playstyles with a new off-hand weapon. 

Please do not take it personally I am just a Thief lover that wants their class to be the most fun possible,  and I think that this is objectively the path that opens more doors for new builds and playstyles for everyone 🙂 

Edited July 12, 2023 by TheThief.8475

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

Honestly a off hand axe would be great... it would add flavor to a bunch of builds.

[TheThief.8475]

10 hours ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

Honestly a off hand axe would be great... it would add flavor to a bunch of builds.

Indeed 🙂 

[draxynnic.3719]

On 7/13/2023 at 6:48 AM, TheThief.8475 said:

I was talking about axe off-hand here, so you would have poison and bleed from daggers and possibly torment + poison on the dual wield skill (similar to twilight combo). The point was that even with an off-hand axe, you can make a build that works with Specter -> there is no actual need to have a new main-hand weapon.

1. My complaint is that Sword isn't good in PvE and never will be because of their dual wield skills being PvP-oriented (s/d) and PvP/utility-oriented (s/p). A new off-hand would give Sword a new dual-wield skill to make it viable in PvE;
2. Sword being viable in PvE is good (new build/playstyle -> more variety makes more people happy);
3. The same off-hand that could make Sword viable in PvE would also have 3 more dual-wield skills with dagger, pistol, and sceptre, supporting more builds/playstyles;

A new off-hand weapon could have skills of that same type, dual-wield skills are the most important anyways. They could totally grant utility in skill 4 and 5 and nothing would change (still allows to create new builds and playstyles). The most important utility to Thief is stealth, so they could give some sort of stealth access to the kit (through skill 4/5 or through a selected dual-wield skill where they want to support a stealthy playstyle)

The fact is that for high-end PvE it's totally unusable as a power weapon except for DE. So what changes?

Thief also has 3 condi weapons: dagger, pistol, and sceptre. The only reason they don't work with Specter is that their current off-hand weapons don't provide any dual-wield skills that apply conditions like torment and poison (good on Specter).

 

Can't you see where I'm going? All these problems can be solved with a single new off-hand weapon:

• You have one more melee power option with sword-axe (and trust me a lot of Thief players can't wait to be able to play with Sword)
• You get out of sceptre jail on Specter with dagger/axe (while possibly also creating new builds for other specializations);
• You create more ranged options with pistol/axe (that could also support Specter builds), and sceptre/axe (consider that sceptre/axe could play totally differently from sceptre/dagger and actually be fun);

 

TLDR you don't need a new main-hand weapon to support the playstyles you described in your first post, and you can also support MORE playstyles with a new off-hand weapon. 

Please do not take it personally I am just a Thief lover that wants their class to be the most fun possible,  and I think that this is objectively the path that opens more doors for new builds and playstyles for everyone 🙂 

The most likely result if they had done what you'd suggested is that the meta build would swap one of the current offhands for axe and specter would still be in scepter jail. There'd just be an additional option to use with scepter. Sometimes you still autoattack, even with initiative and shroud - I don't think dagger with a Torment-oriented dual skill would cut it.

I get that an additional offhand does more for daredevil and deadeye, but those two already have multiple practical options, and specter does not. Fixing a clear problem with one elite specialisation seems to have outweighed giving sword another dual skill, and it will also still be giving two more combinations to other elite specs as well.

When considering dagger and pistol: Both can really only be seriously considered condition weapons at all when paired with offhand dagger, and you should note again that I was responding to someone who was demanding mainhand axe to be a power weapon. Staff is a power weapon. Sword is a power weapon, even if you say that the dual skills stop it from being viable in endgame content (although it is used on some builds because having access to CC is a good thing...). Dagger can be used as a power weapon - you claim only for deadeye, but it was being done pre-PoF, it's just that deadeye has better ambush skills that make power dagger better for deadeye and otherwise it's competing with sword and staff. So my point that there are plenty of melee power options still stands, your criticisms just reflect that the compete with one another and that staff wins on daredevil and dagger wins on deadeye (something is always going to win, especially on a profession that doesn't have cooldowns on weapon skills and thus doesn't benefit as much from swapping to access more weapon skills).

But hey! Maybe a melee mainhand weapon which has a condition-oriented ambush attack will also make melee condition deadeye a thing!

[draxynnic.3719]

I've been thinking more on this, and I'm not sure that at this point an offhand is actually bringing more to the other elite specialisations.

Let's assume, for simplicity, that we're considering pure DPS - CC or other utility is either unimportant or some other weaponset's problem. You also seem to want sword/new to be power-oriented without forced movement, so let's assume that. Conversely, let's say that the new mainhand is what I've proposed: a Torment-heavy melee condi weapon.

For specter, I've already discussed the expected result. Your proposal of dagger/new with a Torment-oriented dual skill would have to make that dual skill generate pretty juicy amounts of Torment to get specter out of scepter jail, especially if specter continues to have reduced Initiative making it harder to spam the dual skill. So unless that dual skill is really aggressively tuned, specter will likely remain in scepter jail, just with a new offhand to go with it. A Torment-oriented melee mainhand weapon, however, would do the job, opening up a melee specter playstyle. So specter is, IMO, more likely to be better off with the proposed mainhand concept than a new offhand... this time around.

For deadeye, if you're looking to do damage, you're probably looking for a weapon with a highly damaging ambush attack, since that's it's thing. So it's not going to use sword as part of a damage set, and it's not going to use dagger for condi (hybrid, maybe). You'd be running dagger/new, pistol/new, or maybe scepter/new with Weapon Mastery. In which case, the offhand isn't really doing much beyond changing which dual skill you use to build up malice between malicious ambush skills. A condi mainhand melee weapon with a condi-oriented ambush skill would open up a melee condition deadeye, which would still introduce new dual skills. So I think deadeye is ALSO better off with a new mainhand this time around.

Daredevil is a bit more complex to analyse since it tends to rely more on initiative skills (particularly dual skills) and dodges. There's four mainhand weapons currently available, and a common thread here is that a new offhand could remove a lot of forced movement: power sword/new that isn't rolling around the target, condi dagger/new that isn't somersaulting through the target, condi pistol/new that doesn't have to run in and then teleport backward to activate the dual skill they actually want (this is part of the reason that I'm not assuming axe - a focus offhand, for instance, could use the focus to enhance the pistol attack in some way, pistol/shield could have a dual attack of firing over the shield, and so on). Daredevil is still going to need to dodge as part of the rotation, but the need for movement as part of the rotation would at least reduce. So even if we take into consideration that sword/new is still going to be in direct competition with staff, there's potential for several new playstyles in there, including a new melee condi style. The proposal of a condi mainhand, however, would only introduce two melee condi styles - new/dagger and new/pistol. So if you're specifically looking for melee condi daredevil, the mainhand is better, but otherwise daredevil gets more out of an offhand (and it is worth noting that the condition dodge works better with a ranged build than the power dodge).

In conclusion, specter probably gets a lot more out of a melee condi mainhand, as long as it does enough Torment to compete well with scepter. Deadeye also seems to get a little more out of it, since having a melee condi ambush skill probably matters more to deadeye than getting different dual skills to build malice with. Daredevil, conversely, gets a little more out of an offhand. However, I would be inclined to say that daredevil probably needs more options the least, since daredevil has no mechanics that limit which of the existing options work for it.

Of course, this all falls down if ArenaNet have just made axe into another power weapon instead of filling the gap I've identified. And if they have... that's a gap that only needs to be filled once as long as it's filled well, so the weapon after that had better be an offhand.

[TheThief.8475]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I've been thinking more on this, and I'm not sure that at this point an offhand is actually bringing more to the other elite specialisations.

Let's assume, for simplicity, that we're considering pure DPS - CC or other utility is either unimportant or some other weaponset's problem. You also seem to want sword/new to be power-oriented without forced movement, so let's assume that. Conversely, let's say that the new mainhand is what I've proposed: a Torment-heavy melee condi weapon.

For specter, I've already discussed the expected result. Your proposal of dagger/new with a Torment-oriented dual skill would have to make that dual skill generate pretty juicy amounts of Torment to get specter out of scepter jail, especially if specter continues to have reduced Initiative making it harder to spam the dual skill. So unless that dual skill is really aggressively tuned, specter will likely remain in scepter jail, just with a new offhand to go with it. A Torment-oriented melee mainhand weapon, however, would do the job, opening up a melee specter playstyle. So specter is, IMO, more likely to be better off with the proposed mainhand concept than a new offhand... this time around.

Scepter/dagger as an example does torment and poison damage. I imagine that they can do the same to dagger/new giving more than one condition (to support multi conditions condi build) like torment + poison or torment + bleed, or all 3. Consider that pre-patch alac Specter dealed about the 50% poison and 50% torment damage and had 36k dps benchmark with full ritualist vs 39k viper dps specter (which was like 65/70% torment and 35/30% poison).

It's not like the new weapon has to deal more damage that scepter to be good/meta. If the damage is similar (surely it would have more burst since scepter is the slug weapon) we can choose to play whatever you enjoy the most/ whatever we consider more appropriate for a situation (for example you probably want to go scepter in encounters like sanqua where the boss moves around a lot/ you can't always stay melee because of split mechanics etc);

Sword/new I had imagined that could support both Daredevil and Deadeye. Maleficent Seven allows builds with very strong dual wield attacks even with a weak stealth attack (for example condi d/d currently deals a decent amount of damage, all coming from Death Blossom + trickery, deadly arts, and venoms), so with the same concept sword/new could work as well (basically you keep regenerating initiative to spam the strong skill while using stealth attack only to reset malice).

TBH I hope that they revisit weapon stealth attacks with the introduction of weapon master training (and additional effects with DE). For example, sword stealth attack is pathetic, and the additional effect from DE is pathetic too. That would be the option I prefer obviously, but Anet doesn't give a kitten about Thief so probably they won't rework useless stealth skills (hey Anet, we want it lol);

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

In conclusion, specter probably gets a lot more out of a melee condi mainhand, as long as it does enough Torment to compete well with scepter. Deadeye also seems to get a little more out of it, since having a melee condi ambush skill probably matters more to deadeye than getting different dual skills to build malice with. Daredevil, conversely, gets a little more out of an offhand. However, I would be inclined to say that daredevil probably needs more options the least, since daredevil has no mechanics that limit which of the existing options work for it.

Of course, this all falls down if ArenaNet have just made axe into another power weapon instead of filling the gap I've identified. And if they have... that's a gap that only needs to be filled once as long as it's filled well, so the weapon after that had better be an offhand.

As I said, I don't think that a main-hand benefits scepter more than an off-hand but whatever. I agree that a main-hand weapon will probably be better for DE tho (which is also the spec that I enjoy the most atm) if they don't come up with another ugly useless stealth attack. Daredevil will probably have a new build too;

But this is the fact: they will only have 1 new build each at best, because either dagger or pistol is going to be used over the other depending on the best dual-wiel skill, while with an off-hand you COULD have more than one build because there are 4 main-hand weapon (with different range, burst, and mobility)..

The fact that sword/new could be a viable power option could potentially create 2 power build (DE, DD) and also 3 to 9 condi builds (dagger/new, scepter/new, pistol/new x3 specs). Even if we are super pessimistic we can have at least 1 power build (say it works only with DE or DD), and 2 condi builds (say DD and Specter, since DE supports power better atm), you still have 3 new builds (the same as having a new main-hand) but the potential of up to 11 builds.

 

The other reasons I don't want a main-hand (Spoiler: I don't trust Anet knowledge of Thief)

If they realize the main-hand weapon well (which they haven't in the past) let's say the one variant that is worst at dps is better at cleaving/mobility or anything that makes that weapon situationally useful and rewarding (not only for CCs kitten) that would be interesting. I'm a fan of solo open world builds, and if one of the two dual skills can create a fun and strong build folo solo OW I'd we be decently happy. The only reason I still prefer the off-hand option is that with more dual skills there's more opportunity for them to create interesting skills (maybe they are fun in OW or in PvP in they aren't meta for Fractals and Raids), while with only 2 new dual wield skills (and one range option), they would have to nail it perfectly, (but I don't think they will because they don't have a clue about Thief).

TLDR with more combinations, there's more room for builds. Even if only 3 of the 11 potential builds are very good for Fractal and Raids, maybe the remaining 8 are strong  or a lot of fun in solo OW content, or in PvP. With less combination there's just less potential: 3 to 6 builds, say 3 very good in Fractals and Raids using the best dps dual-wield skill, and another 3 (with the other dual-wield skill) may be strong/ fun in solo OW, PvP.

Edited July 14, 2023 by TheThief.8475

[Sobx.1758]

Two axes, even if it meant the new oh axe wouldn't get any other new dualwield skills and instead used main hand 3 skills.

Bad side: no new dualwield skills
Good side: mainhand weapon skill3s can be used without losing offhand weapon stats (maybe with some number rebalancing, which still should be much easier than making new skills instead). Also 2 axes > 1 axe.

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

Scepter/dagger as an example does torment and poison damage. I imagine that they can do the same to dagger/new giving more than one condition (to support multi conditions condi build) like torment + poison or torment + bleed, or all 3. Consider that pre-patch alac Specter dealed about the 50% poison and 50% torment damage and had 36k dps benchmark with full ritualist vs 39k viper dps specter (which was like 65/70% torment and 35/30% poison).

It's not just damage that's a consideration here. Now that Traversing Dusk is no longer the default pick, Larcenous Torment is proving to be part of the Shadow Force engine, which naturally scales better the more of it you have. From a conditions perspective, dagger mainhand is just bleed and poison on the auto, and whatever comes from the dual skill. The hypothetical dagger/new, if we assume that the trend of the offhand 4 and 5 skills being more utility than damage oriented continues, would only have the dual skill in order to be a source of torment, making the goal of breaking out of scepter jail reliant entirely on that dual skill.

Now, with new/dagger and new/pistol, it wouldn't be reliant on just one skill. Specter doesn't typically ambush that often, but you've got the autoattack, skill 2, and two chances at a decent dual skill which all have the potential for torment to generate shadow force. Granted, Amplified Siphoning exists, but I don't think a condi specter is likely to want to take that.

18 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

It's not like the new weapon has to deal more damage that scepter to be good/meta. If the damage is similar (surely it would have more burst since scepter is the slug weapon) we can choose to play whatever you enjoy the most/ whatever we consider more appropriate for a situation (for example you probably want to go scepter in encounters like sanqua where the boss moves around a lot/ you can't always stay melee because of split mechanics etc);

I'd consider that axe would likely distinguish itself as a melee cleaving weapon - which is notable since scepter is currently pretty bad at dealing with multiple targets. Even dagger only hits two targets on the autoattack.

18 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

Sword/new I had imagined that could support both Daredevil and Deadeye. Maleficent Seven allows builds with very strong dual wield attacks even with a weak stealth attack (for example condi d/d currently deals a decent amount of damage, all coming from Death Blossom + trickery, deadly arts, and venoms), so with the same concept sword/new could work as well (basically you keep regenerating initiative to spam the strong skill while using stealth attack only to reset malice).

TBH I hope that they revisit weapon stealth attacks with the introduction of weapon master training (and additional effects with DE). For example, sword stealth attack is pathetic, and the additional effect from DE is pathetic too. That would be the option I prefer obviously, but Anet doesn't give a kitten about Thief so probably they won't rework useless stealth skills (hey Anet, we want it lol);

Eh. I'm sceptical on the basis that if you're ruling out sword/pistol as ever being a good power DPS weapon due to having a strong CC as part of the rotation, sword/anything deadeye is going to have the same problem unless they redesign the ambush skill from scratch. Maybe not to quite the same degree (it's a daze every seven Malice rather than a stun every five Initiative) but the problem is still there. It's also going to have the same problem of competing with staff (and dagger facestabbing) for power damage output.

18 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

As I said, I don't think that a main-hand benefits scepter more than an off-hand but whatever. I agree that a main-hand weapon will probably be better for DE tho (which is also the spec that I enjoy the most atm) if they don't come up with another ugly useless stealth attack. Daredevil will probably have a new build too;

But this is the fact: they will only have 1 new build each at best, because either dagger or pistol is going to be used over the other depending on the best dual-wiel skill, while with an off-hand you COULD have more than one build because there are 4 main-hand weapon (with different range, burst, and mobility)..

The fact that sword/new could be a viable power option could potentially create 2 power build (DE, DD) and also 3 to 9 condi builds (dagger/new, scepter/new, pistol/new x3 specs). Even if we are super pessimistic we can have at least 1 power build (say it works only with DE or DD), and 2 condi builds (say DD and Specter, since DE supports power better atm), you still have 3 new builds (the same as having a new main-hand) but the potential of up to 11 builds.

 

The other reasons I don't want a main-hand (Spoiler: I don't trust Anet knowledge of Thief)

If they realize the main-hand weapon well (which they haven't in the past) let's say the one variant that is worst at dps is better at cleaving/mobility or anything that makes that weapon situationally useful and rewarding (not only for CCs kitten) that would be interesting. I'm a fan of solo open world builds, and if one of the two dual skills can create a fun and strong build folo solo OW I'd we be decently happy. The only reason I still prefer the off-hand option is that with more dual skills there's more opportunity for them to create interesting skills (maybe they are fun in OW or in PvP in they aren't meta for Fractals and Raids), while with only 2 new dual wield skills (and one range option), they would have to nail it perfectly, (but I don't think they will because they don't have a clue about Thief).

TLDR with more combinations, there's more room for builds. Even if only 3 of the 11 potential builds are very good for Fractal and Raids, maybe the remaining 8 are strong  or a lot of fun in solo OW content, or in PvP. With less combination there's just less potential: 3 to 6 builds, say 3 very good in Fractals and Raids using the best dps dual-wield skill, and another 3 (with the other dual-wield skill) may be strong/ fun in solo OW, PvP.

My viewpoint here is that while the offhand introduces more options on paper, mainhand axe, if done properly, creates options that matter. If you've got a dozen ways of doing the same thing, people are going to identify the two or three that are most efficient and those are the ones that get used (you said yourself that if a weapon has multiple dual skills available people will just use the best one...). Mainhand axe, however, opens up a lot of possibility - melee specter, a good ambush for melee condi deadeye, and for condi daredevil it is, at the very least, an additional melee condi option. This, to me, is more concrete than a new offhand maybe creating half a dozen new builds, but maybe specter remains in scepter jail and any new builds opened up by the new offhand are simply substituting a better dual skill for a build that is mostly one that existed before. While less true than for other professions, the MH weapon for a thief is still typically more build-defining than the offhand, since it brings the autoattack, the ambush skill, most of the damage in general, and because the MH weapon is generally what primarily establishes the character of the offhand weapon.

I had the "give us an offhand for more dual skills, you cowards" reaction myself, but when I thought about what they might be aiming to do with MH axe, I think I'm actually more excited than I would be for an offhand. Sure, there's still a decent probability of nobody in the skill design team actually caring about Thief and they're just going to throw something together randomly and call it a day... but I think that's also just as likely for an offhand. The biggest gaps I can see in the overall thief toolkit seem like they can be better filled by a well-designed mainhand than an offhand. The offhand might present more options, but they're more likely to be different ways of doing what the MH they're used with already does... and to be perfectly honest, I don't place as high a priority in saving sword when staff and power dagger exists. Something to consider for future expansions, sure, but I'd rather see a better ambush skill for condi deadeye and specter broken out of scepter jail.

[TheThief.8475]

Ok

[Lakemine.3014]

Your not alone. I want OH sword. I really do not get how we can't when other classes get OHs or BOTH MH and OHs with 2-3x the number of skills we would have to get designed for a thief, yet "its too hard" or some other reason. Just wish we could understand the logic (or imo in this case, non-logic) of WHY were not allowed too have OH sword, yet other classes can have both.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Focus!!!!!!!

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Lakemine.3014 said:

Your not alone. I want OH sword. I really do not get how we can't when other classes get OHs or BOTH MH and OHs with 2-3x the number of skills we would have to get designed for a thief, yet "its too hard" or some other reason. Just wish we could understand the logic (or imo in this case, non-logic) of WHY were not allowed too have OH sword, yet other classes can have both.

You can look at my previous discussions for one possible reason - getting specter out of having to use scepter as the mainhand for both swaps because thief has no other mainhand that really synergises well with specter. Fixing a specific problem might have overturned the more generalised benefit of another offhand.

I also have a suspicion, incidentally, that the dual skill mechanic might be blocking purely melee offhands. So when a new offhand is introduced, it might be more likely to be a focus or even shield than a sword.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You can look at my previous discussions for one possible reason - getting specter out of having to use scepter as the mainhand for both swaps because thief has no other mainhand that really synergises well with specter. Fixing a specific problem might have overturned the more generalised benefit of another offhand.

I also have a suspicion, incidentally, that the dual skill mechanic might be blocking purely melee offhands. So when a new offhand is introduced, it might be more likely to be a focus or even shield than a sword.

If we got a shield offhand I could imagine old gw1 skills for assassin coming back like Shroud of Distress or even feigned neutrality lol.

 

I'd rewrite shroud of distress though for like maybe skill 5 and make it " block ranged attacks and apply blind to enemies attacking you within range but make it a channeled block...would eat a crap ton of initiative though