Please explain logic in this

[Nanogrid.7283]

Hi, I'm new to gw2 and I only came for WvW.

Please someone explain to me how is the downstate mechanic a fair one for WvW.

So:

1. enemy squad is 20 players
2. my group is 5 players
3. we manage to downstate one, but can´t finish under pressure of 19 enemy players
4. enemy downstate gets hand rezzed by 19 enemy players
5. enemy 20 player squad manages to downstate one of my 5 man group, they 11111111111111111 until he is dead for good, with zero chance for us to hand rezz him due to pressure
6. downstate mechanic gives game advantage to the group that already had game advantage in the first place because they had way bigger group
7. why? would it not be better to eliminate downstate mechanic from WvW and make it a more interesting experience? I'm confused.

Ball up, boon up, turn off brain, spam 11111111 and go watch sesame street while in WvW.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Nanogrid.7283

[joneirikb.7506]

This has been an ongoing "discussion" on these forums over the years. There's a fairly large group that likes downed state, and another fairly large group that is against it. 

About once a year or so, the devs remember that WvW exists, and flip the switch for the "No downed state event". Which does exactly that, disables downed state for a week. Some love it, others hate it and boycott WvW that week. Like many things in life, it's one of those things you'll never get most people to agree on.

Downed State is however a very iconic aspect of GW2, and taking it entirely away feels weird to some. On the other hand, downed state health hasn't been nerfed together with other damage sources. There's also been suggestions about making limits to the number of times you can be raised back up, health penalty for each time for example. Or set a max cap of X to the number that can raise. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by joneirikb.7506

[ShadowCatz.8437]

Maybe you should take look at your skills where you can rez your allies without having to start the rez process? Scrappers Function Gyro have a chance on rez or kill player that are in downstate. Same with many other skills or traits that will rez without going into rez mode on other profession.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival#Traits_that_revive

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival#Skills_that_revive

Removing downstate will not help a smaller group fighting a larger group. It will only change how the larger group can now focus on different profession that have less defence or lack range to do any damage for those that are out of range (especially melee build or build with melee weapon in combination with low amount of mobility skills to get to target).

Another side of this how boons work as it will increase with the larger groups players as those have easier to keep boons up while the smaller team will have a harder time (as they will need to be more mobile and with increased range have less boon from each other).

In your example with 5 player where one is in down state, you will only have 4 players around that can fight and 20 vs 4 means 5 times the amount of potential boons/condition that now can hit the rest of players that are still fighting. If they stay close to each other, they will get hit by enough of AoEs that very fast will put them in down state.

Edited July 14, 2023 by ShadowCatz.8437

[Gotejjeken.1267]

22 minutes ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

Maybe you should take look at your skills where you can rez your allies without having to start the rez process? Scrappers Function Gyro have a chance on rez or kill player that are in downstate. Same with many other skills or traits that will rez without going into rez mode on other profession.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival#Traits_that_revive

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival#Skills_that_revive

Removing downstate will not help a smaller group fighting a larger group. It will only change how the larger group can now focus on different profession that have less defence or lack range to do any damage for those that are out of range (especially melee build or build with melee weapon in combination with low amount of mobility skills to get to target).

Another side of this how boons work as it will increase with the larger groups players as those have easier to keep boons up while the smaller team will have a harder time (as they will need to be more mobile and with increased range have less boon from each other).

In your example with 5 player where one is in down state, you will only have 4 players around that can fight and 20 vs 4 means 5 times the amount of potential boons/condition that now can hit the rest of players that are still fighting. If they stay close to each other, they will get hit by enough of AoEs that very fast will put them in down state.

You may be surprised, 5-man groups can farm 3-4 times their size if the larger group is uncoordinated, and it almost always is outside EBG unless a keep is getting EWP'd.  

Boon sharing essentially makes small groups nigh unkillable without organization on the other side.  Can see it time and time again when a small group wants to troll NC, people will feed forever (seen up to an hour before).   

As for downstate, I agree it shouldn't exist in WvW--it has more merit in sPvP (and obviously PvE).  In WvW you have numbers advantage most times, and that should be enough not to need downstate; whereas PvP you have 5-man teams and so rezzing is very important there.  

[Hotride.2187]

What do you need explained? 5v20, you lose based on numbers. "Boon up", its not like you are doing something else to survive in 5v20. Otherwise you'd be exploding just from their autos.

[Dawdler.8521]

That's not a problem with the core downstate mechanic.

What people actually have a problem with is the healing and rally in downstate which exponentially favors larger groups instead of encouraging skills and tactics to secure their downed rather than spam revive. Just a basic change like 1:1 healing (ie only one can heal a downed) would instantly change the outnumbered scenario to simply be the outnumbered scenario and that's before we even argue nerfing healing or downstate skills.

It's often been discussed and it always ends up same - one side is willing to make compromises and the other side absolutely refuse to make any compromises. 

Which makes most forum threads on downstate pointless, because it's not much of a forum when one side hold their hands over the ears going LALALALDELETEDOWNSTATEALALALALALA!!!

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

Removing downstate will not help a smaller group fighting a larger group.

It absolutely does.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

It's often been discussed and it always ends up same - one side is willing to make compromises and the other side absolutely refuse to make any compromises.

While i wouldn't mind a removal, i have always preferred nerfs over a complete deletion of the down and rez mechanic. And most players defending downstate do not show much willingness to accept nerfs (except "remove rally", which is the single aspect about downstate that a small grp can sometimes take advantage off vs larger numbers).

Edited July 14, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Cyninja.2954]

13 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

It absolutely does.

Removing downstate benefits only 1 thing: burst damage.

Once any sized group reacts to this fact, it almost completely negates any change except at the extremes ends (which ultimately in this case means: would a 5 player group still be able to burst individual players from the larger group. If yes: then removing downstate would help the smaller group, if no: the chance for the smaller group to succeed shrinks even more because it turns into even more of a bash heads against each other).

In this specific case, the larger group simply can start using more tanky gear or more utilities/traits which reduce spike. They certainly don't need the damage to kill anyone from the smaller group. Once the smaller group is unable to spike someone down, they have 0 chance of competing again.

As far as 5v20, currently 5 players can easily spike many classes/builds into downstate. Mostly because a lot of players run berserker on squad dps builds for example. Suffice to say, a lot less players would run berserker if downstate was removed.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Zyreva.1078]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

Removing downstate benefits only 1 thing: burst damage.

No.

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Zyreva.1078 said:

No.

Well I guess we disagree on this then.

[iminxi.8514]

Quote

Ball up, boon up, turn off brain, spam 11111111 and go watch sesame street while in WvW.

i wonder how much boons your 5 man grouphas uptime on considering you can tank a 20 man squad.

or you are all wizards and illusionists

Edited July 14, 2023 by demonbeetle.2387

[Dawdler.8521]

30 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And most players defending downstate do not show much willingness to accept nerfs (except "remove rally", which is the single aspect about downstate that a small grp can sometimes take advantage off vs larger numbers).

What are you even talking about here, pretty much everyone talking nerfs talk about the healing and downstate health pool first (because it's one of the obvious flaws when fighting groups, it's too fast to rub one up), followed by downstate skills (with one of the most common nerfs being to have a universal skillset rather than class, since some are fairly powerful compared to others) and then last being able to rally off a death.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[andrewlcl.8176]

Disabling down state in WvW would be great. In some cases, down state is an absolute clutch that encourages (or at the very least negates the repercussions) being bad, or performing excessively risky gameplay for relatively poor reward. 

Yes, it's frustrating to say, 2v5 some group, get one down and it's impossible to kill the down before they get ressed. And if you try and stand still to stomp (without some clutch invul of your own), enemy group seriously messes you up. 

If on the other hand, you are downed, your one pal cannot possibly res you against the pressure of 5 others and the fight is lost. 

[Dawdler.8521]

10 minutes ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

Yes, it's frustrating to say, 2v5 some group, get one down and it's impossible to kill the down before they get ressed.

If the five in a 2v5 wins, the first comment from the two will probably be "lol they got carried by downstate, we want a real fight!"

If the two in a 2v5 wins, the first comment from the two will probably be "lol that was too easy, such noobs, we want a real fight!"

Personally I've stomped 1 downed guy in the middle of a 20 man fight guild group. Because I bring the tools to do it.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What are you even talking about here, pretty much everyone talking nerfs talk about the healing and downstate health pool first (because it's one of the obvious flaws when fighting groups, it's too fast to rub one up), followed by downstate skills (with one of the most common nerfs being to have a universal skillset rather than class, since some are fairly powerful compared to others) and then last being able to rally off a death.

I'm talking about all the "downstate is fine, except for rally" comments. Ofc those that don't think downstate is fine, would want to target more problematic things.

57 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Personally I've stomped 1 downed guy in the middle of a 20 man fight guild group. Because I bring the tools to do it.

Even a single player can rez faster than you can stomp, let alone multiple, so that only works if those 20 players mess up badly and/or were busy dealing with numerous other opponents, and has little to do with you bringing the "tools" to do so (also most classes do not even have the "tools" to safely attempt a stomp in the middle of 20 enemies).

Edited July 14, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[andrewlcl.8176]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

If the five in a 2v5 wins, the first comment from the two will probably be "lol they got carried by downstate, we want a real fight!"

If the two in a 2v5 wins, the first comment from the two will probably be "lol that was too easy, such noobs, we want a real fight!"

Personally I've stomped 1 downed guy in the middle of a 20 man fight guild group. Because I bring the tools to do it.

I don't assume people are noobs.

Also, context is important when talking about stomps. 

[Cyninja.2954]

16 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Even a single player can rez faster than you can stomp, let alone multiple, so that only works if those 20 players mess up badly and/or were busy dealing with numerous other opponents, and has little to do with you bringing the "tools" to do so (also most classes do not even have the "tools" to safely attempt a stomp in the middle of 20 enemies).

If only there where ways to finish downed players which do not rely on channeling the "finisher" animation.... oh wait, there are (and I am not talking finish off the downstate health pool via brute force). Some of them even significantly faster and near unavoidable even. Granted, not every class has access in the same way to this, but these tools are available.

Most players here are under the critical flaw that downstate=dead and make the assumption that removing downstate somehow means every player who went down would now be dead without taking into account how the meta or builds would change to accommodate the fact that downstate was removed.

Food for thought: if no player of the larger group goes down in that 5v20 scenario, removing downstate means nothing. If removing downstate results in changes to builds to prevent going down in the first place, especially when heavily outnumbered, of which use was removing downstate to begin with for the smaller group?

Right now, downstate benefits the larger group. Just like how most EVERYTHING benefits the larger group. Downstate also allows for specific types of builds, because of how it changes the fight dynamics and necessities for similar sized groups meeting, this in turn benefits smaller groups which can and should make use of this fact.

Remove downstate, and the larger group loses its direct benefits. The smaller group loses the benefits secondary effects of downstate caused.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Zyreva.1078]

11 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If only there where ways to finish downed players which do not rely on channeling the "finisher" animation.... oh wait, there are.

Good luck damaging through incoming healing worth (ten) thousands of hps with zero cooldown or build investment required, while outnumbered and still having to deal with heavy incoming pressure and aoe caps that prevent effectice cleave of larger numbers.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Good luck damaging through incoming healing worth (ten) thousands of hps with zero cooldown or build investment required, while outnumbered and still having to deal with counterpressure and aoe caps that prevent effectice cleave of larger numbers.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Battle_Standard

and in case this isn't obvious, there are more skills like it. I said: I'm not referring to brute forcing the finish.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Zyreva.1078]

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Battle_Standard

2s cast time, long cd, only aviable to a single class, the stomp part can get blocked or blinded, more effective as rez (much larger radius and not block- or blindable).

If only ressing had the same limitations ...

Edited July 14, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

2s cast time, long cd, only aviable to a single class, the stomp part can get blocked or blinded, more effective as rez (much larger radius and not block- or blindable).

You are moving the goal post, but fine. I didn't say that the alternatives are able to out pace EVERY benefit the larger group has.

Also ultimately irrelevant since the main argument stands: the assumptions that current day downed are to be equated with future downed is flawed. Removing downstate permanently WOULD affect builds, and those builds would be subject to new extremes, potentially making larger groups uncontestable for smaller groups at one extreme.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Zyreva.1078]

30 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Also ultimately irrelevant since the main argument stands: the assumptions that current day downed are to be equated with future downed is flawed. Removing downstate permanently WOULD affect builds, and those builds would be subject to new extremes, potentially making larger groups uncontestable for smaller groups at one extreme.

How would larger grps become uncontestable? All run full minstrel? Some seem to do that already, and it's not very effective, because the lack of counter pressure allows more agressive play and it is still possible to focus down targets if they are bad enough.

You seem to assume oneshotting squishies is the only way to generate downs for small grps against much larger numbers, but that's not the case, so having less of those isn't going to make that much of a difference. Aside from this it is just an assumption that everyone out of a sudden runs full tank, for all we know players would run glassier to take advantage of burst, that according to you is the only thing that would benefit from a removal of downstate. Maybe zergs would start to run full cele , and then maybe anet finally realizes that it is indeed not very balanced - and nerfs it. Wouldn be a win-win situation.

If never gong down would be as easy as a simple build change - why aren't players doing that already?

Ultimatively we both don't know how it would shift the meta, but i don't think it would actually change that much (and if it does, well just another argument that players laying on the ground, deprived of most of their powers and supposedly close to death, are indeed way too impactful).

Edited July 14, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[babana.7521]

I have absolutely no idea why players complaint about something that is so clear, WvW allows a squad of 50 players. That should tell everyone what to expect when they decide to enter this game mode.  

it has nothing to do with downstate. leave it alone.

Edited July 14, 2023 by babana.7521

[Zyreva.1078]

1 minute ago, babana.7521 said:

I have absolutely no idea why players complaint about something that is so clear, WvW allows a squad of 50 players. That should tell everyone what to expect when they decide to join this game mode.  

I have absolutely no idea how your comment is related to this topic.