GW2 Sales/Revenue/Earnings Report 1Q-2023

[Gendalfs.7521]

One thing I noticed is that they're not making any new seasonal events.

 

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

One thing I noticed is that they're not making any new seasonal events.

Probably because the number of seasons during a year didn't increase for the last 10 years (or even longer than that!)? Also they added a "test zone" in last SAB.

[wolfof.1842]

On 7/27/2023 at 4:45 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

And the revamp of the gem store? Why do that? And adding LS 1, why do that?   Pick the one thing you think supports your theory and run with it, got it. Honestly, we'll see. You don't have a crystal ball and neither do I. I made my prediction. I think people are going to be surprised. I acknowledge I could be wrong, but I'm right more often than I'm wrong on these forums, even when I'm saying stuff most people disagree with. I'm happy with my track record.

It used old software "coherent UI" but looks like no more support

Can be license, compatibility or security flaw and just like other browser/OS need update:
"The Gem Store is actually a regular website, which the game renders by using a built-in browser engine."

I don't see huge investment but maintenance work of system, if Gem Store stops working they can't earn money.

edit: found a GW2 dev post explain here, like I guess before: 

• "CoherentUI doesn’t support emerging security standards. Our third-party payment processing partners have indicated this will be an issue in the future. This is a serious risk impacting our ability to fund future development of the game."

• "CoherentUI is no longer supported by its vendor. We can’t improve its performance or fix its bugs ourselves. This ultimately manifests as unresolvable Trading Post bugs and performance issues."

• ...

Edited July 28, 2023 by wolfof.1842

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

It used old software "coherent UI" but looks like no more support

Can be license, compatibility or security flaw and just like other browser/OS need update:
"The Gem Store is actually a regular website, which the game renders by using a built-in browser engine."

I don't see huge investment but maintenance work of system, if Gem Store stops working they can't earn money.

edit: found a GW2 dev post explain here, like I guess before: 

• "CoherentUI doesn’t support emerging security standards. Our third-party payment processing partners have indicated this will be an issue in the future. This is a serious risk impacting our ability to fund future development of the game."

• "CoherentUI is no longer supported by its vendor. We can’t improve its performance or fix its bugs ourselves. This ultimately manifests as unresolvable Trading Post bugs and performance issues."

• ...

And Season 1 was necessary?  What about that?  What about the Rune changes?  You guys are unbelieveable.  You pick one or two things you can justify to fit your theory and ignore everything else. Alliances will come too. We've already seen it in the menu, but they took it out in a patch. That's the next WvW beta. Honestly, you make it sound like nothing is happening. Stuff is happening, some people, to prove a point, decide that stuff doesn't count. One of us is trying to say this is definitely how it is, and one of us is saying I think it's this way but I'll wait and see. I think people can decide for themselves which is more reasonable. 

[Izzy.2951]

18 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I don't think half the game is abandoned, so much as the game has evolved. Dungeons were replaced by fractals. You could say dungeons are abandoned but fractals are not.  DRMs aren't abandoned, because they were only intended for the purposes of finishing that story. I didn't expect more of them. Strikes are still coming out, that's the 10 man instanced content instead of raids. WvW isn't abandoned but yeah, it takes forever to update it, for sure. PvP might be abandoned but we know from past dev interaction that a minority of players play it.  I don't know if that's changed obviously.

I'm interested in why your guesses are better than my guesses, because that's all it is. You're guessing and I'm guessing. I guess we'll see what happens.

My man, its not guesses. I know quite a bit about programming, strikes are basically reused assets, maps, story, boss models and animations that cant be even compared to a Raid. That is making cheap content. Raids have been played quite more than enough, they are not being played more cos instead of adding a story/easy mode like others game do so everyone plays them and see them, they decided to add emboldened buff which was a waste of devs time and another cheap update. And i could continiu, the free raptor at lvl 10 and explorer achivements to lvl faster is nice to see but again something cheap as "restructuring core game". 

LWS1 was done by a small team of QoL devs that was just putting a permanent mode of ls1 cutting some stuff for steam release. In their steam release they didnt use the free option to have a pop up for all steam players to see when the game launched (not talking about the paid one of steam wall). 

Fractals have been 3 years dead, the last fractal was not even a fractal but more of a reused strike with very few things to do and a HP spoungue as boss. Again it seems they are not investing money into it, cos the quality has skyrocket. For not talking about fractals leaderborads and lots of stuff they said and never made.

WvW probably the feature they have used as a callout that will dissapoint lots of people. Its just some tweaks on the same game mode weve been playing since 2012.

PvP is completly dead, up to the point they dont care to even release a map with a unique mechanic from ages to ages. Not even monetizing more PvP with custom voice announcer packs, statues when the game is over etc as other pvp games do.

The new xpac weve already seen reused assets in the few screenshots. The features are just existing ones and tweaks here and there. A daily/quarterly missions like gw1 zaishen missions. If you call that investing money, okay.

WoW an older game, with older engine has released direct x12. Because they care about the game. GW2 wont invest money into that, they just invested a bit in direct x11 cos it was easy, windows wont support dx9 soon and as a callout for a fake new gw2 era. When in reality we are going down to IBS era, other projects and maintenance mode.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Izzy.2951

[Izzy.2951]

For not talking about the LFG system that is outdated and horrible, the UI where you cant even see your buffs anymore cos they overlap with the minimap, the imposiblity of changing the UI, or even making boons/conditions bigger. The high vission cursor they added have you seen that one? and compared to other small apps around the market. 

Meh i could be here all day talking about the problems of this game and the little money they are investing on it.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Izzy.2951

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Izzy.2951 said:

For not talking about the LFG system that is outdated and horrible, the UI where you cant even see your buffs anymore cos they overlap with the minimap, the imposiblity of changing the UI, or even making boons/conditions bigger. The high vission cursor they added have you seen that one? and compared to other small apps around the market. 

Meh i could be here all day talking about the problems of this game and the little money they are investing on it.

I'm impressed with how much you know about Anet's budget and what's being spent on what and what's being worked on in the background. Or how much time and effort any of the upgrades done so far have cost. 

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Izzy.2951 said:

My man, its not guesses. I know quite a bit about programming, strikes are basically reused assets, maps, story, boss models and animations that cant be even compared to a Raid. That is making cheap content. Raids have been played quite more than enough, they are not being played more cos instead of adding a story/easy mode like others game do so everyone plays them and see them, they decided to add emboldened buff which was a waste of devs time and another cheap update. And i could continiu, the free raptor at lvl 10 and explorer achivements to lvl faster is nice to see but again something cheap as "restructuring core game". 

LWS1 was done by a small team of QoL devs that was just putting a permanent mode of ls1 cutting some stuff for steam release. In their steam release they didnt use the free option to have a pop up for all steam players to see when the game launched (not talking about the paid one of steam wall). 

Fractals have been 3 years dead, the last fractal was not even a fractal but more of a reused strike with very few things to do and a HP spoungue as boss. Again it seems they are not investing money into it, cos the quality has skyrocket. For not talking about fractals leaderborads and lots of stuff they said and never made.

WvW probably the feature they have used as a callout that will dissapoint lots of people. Its just some tweaks on the same game mode weve been playing since 2012.

PvP is completly dead, up to the point they dont care to even release a map with a unique mechanic from ages to ages. Not even monetizing more PvP with custom voice announcer packs, statues when the game is over etc as other pvp games do.

The new xpac weve already seen reused assets in the few screenshots. The features are just existing ones and tweaks here and there. A daily/quarterly missions like gw1 zaishen missions. If you call that investing money, okay.

WoW an older game, with older engine has released direct x12. Because they care about the game. GW2 wont invest money into that, they just invested a bit in direct x11 cos it was easy, windows wont support dx9 soon and as a callout for a fake new gw2 era. When in reality we are going down to IBS era, other projects and maintenance mode.

It's guesses, because you don't have inside information. I admit I don't know, I just see a pattern, but you know. The people that are most sure of themselves tend to be wrong more often than people who doubt themselves. It's certainly been my experience in life. The worst drivers think they're the best drivers.

[wolfof.1842]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

And Season 1 was necessary?  What about that?  What about the Rune changes?  You guys are unbelieveable.  You pick one or two things you can justify to fit your theory and ignore everything else. Alliances will come too. We've already seen it in the menu, but they took it out in a patch. That's the next WvW beta. Honestly, you make it sound like nothing is happening. Stuff is happening, some people, to prove a point, decide that stuff doesn't count. One of us is trying to say this is definitely how it is, and one of us is saying I think it's this way but I'll wait and see. I think people can decide for themselves which is more reasonable. 

Season 1 return, but instead of full new "Season 6" after EoD (only Gyala Delv).
Which one is more resources: rework old story - or create whole new season, many maps, new story, voice actors,.. ?

I just don't see how this is huge investment: 

• DX11 release in 2009 (really.. is a long time)
• Gem store technical/security update
• Season 1 replace Season 6
• Alliances still not ready

On other side, core game for new players is awful out of date: Personal story (Zhaitan), core Tyria maps, textures, character design,..so why they don't invest and update from scratch. They did few world bosses, more XP and that is it, game is future proof now?

[kharmin.7683]

3 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

On other side, core game for new players is awful out of date: Personal story (Zhaitan), core Tyria maps, textures, character design,..so why they don't invest and update from scratch.

Because there are a lot of complaints about "no new content; game is in maintenance mode" so Anet probably feels that they can't afford to go back to older things

[Anvar.5673]

1 minute ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Because there are a lot of complaints about "no new content; game is in maintenance mode" so Anet probably feels that they can't afford to go back to older things

I mean, 2 of 3 of the main game modes of Guild Wars 2 (PvE/WvW/PvP) are nearly on maintenance mode so who could blame them.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Anvar.5673 said:

I mean, 2 of 3 of the main game modes of Guild Wars 2 (PvE/WvW/PvP) are nearly on maintenance mode so who could blame them.

To a point, perhaps, but those modes aren't completely neglected.  It's just that Anet has chosen to spend their resources on things that will make the most profit for their shareholders.

[Izzy.2951]

20 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

To a point, perhaps, but those modes aren't completely neglected.  It's just that Anet has chosen to spend their resources on things that will make the most profit for their shareholders.

"Anet has chosen to spend their resources on things"

Where are they spending their resources then, on pve? the strikes are cheap as hell to make compared to raids, the maps are lower quality and less, the features are non existing rather than tweaks to old ones, they are barely making no new assets/animations instead reusing them, even the last fractal seemed to be a reused strike. So where are those resources if they are not in pvp/wvw. Let me tell you, they are nowhere in gw2. They might be in anet future projects or in ncsoft pockets, but not in the game development.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Izzy.2951

[Zok.4956]

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

And Season 1 was necessary?  What about that?

Season 1 seems to have made sense for Anet for the many new players that should be coming via Steam. They updated a lot of things for the steam launch.

 

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

What about the Rune changes? 

What about it? My assumption: This is used for creative ideas and functions in the SotO expansion.

 

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You guys are unbelieveable.  You pick one or two things you can justify to fit your theory and ignore everything else.

Yes, you could look at it that way. Even if you look at it from the other side of the mirror.

 

[Ashen.2907]

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Alliances will come too. We've already seen it in the menu, but they took it out in a patch. That's the next WvW beta

A month ago on June 28th we were told that we would get more information about the next WvW restructuring beta in a week. 

[Vayne.8563]

11 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

Season 1 return, but instead of full new "Season 6" after EoD (only Gyala Delv).
Which one is more resources: rework old story - or create whole new season, many maps, new story, voice actors,.. ?

I just don't see how this is huge investment: 

• DX11 release in 2009 (really.. is a long time)
• Gem store technical/security update
• Season 1 replace Season 6
• Alliances still not ready

On other side, core game for new players is awful out of date: Personal story (Zhaitan), core Tyria maps, textures, character design,..so why they don't invest and update from scratch. They did few world bosses, more XP and that is it, game is future proof now?

They changed it considerably and the game has changed as well.  You may not realize but when the Silverwastes was introduced, they changed some of the way the physics engine in the game works and it broke a number of things including SAB. Assuming they could just dust it off and role it out, plus it was a year and a half of LS rolled into five chapters. If you don't think that took work, I don't think you know as much about programming as you think you do. It's legacy code. It was bound to require a lot of work.  They did this while working on the next expansion, which is coming out only a year and a half after the last one. Honestly, if this is the best you got, you don't got much.

[wolfof.1842]

7 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

They changed it considerably and the game has changed as well.  You may not realize but when the Silverwastes was introduced, they changed some of the way the physics engine in the game works and it broke a number of things including SAB. Assuming they could just dust it off and role it out, plus it was a year and a half of LS rolled into five chapters. If you don't think that took work, I don't think you know as much about programming as you think you do. It's legacy code. It was bound to require a lot of work.  They did this while working on the next expansion, which is coming out only a year and a half after the last one. Honestly, if this is the best you got, you don't got much.

*mini expansion (18 months after EoD): 

• 2-3 maps, no elite specs, no large mastery, no guild hall,..

while PoF release (23 months after HoT):

• 5 maps, 9 elite specs, 5 mounts mastery, windswept haven,..

Five months can make such difference? 
looks like less resource again

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, wolfof.1842 said:

*mini expansion (18 months after EoD): 

• 2-3 maps, no elite specs, no large mastery, no guild hall,..

while PoF release (23 months after HoT):

• 5 maps, 9 elite specs, 5 mounts mastery, windswept haven,..

Five months can make such difference? 
looks like less resource again

Sure, it had 5 maps.  But you know, a month after PoF released, there were a bunch of posts on reddit and here saying there's nothing left to do in POF.  So yes, it had five zones. HoT had four and had people playing longer. The number of  zones doesn't make an expansion better. Arguably it could take more work, sure. But it's more than mounts that make an expansion. 

I also never said the team was exactly the same size as it was then.  As for no large mastery, you can only do mounts once and gliding once. Thinking they're going to come up with that again is crazy. This time they're changing up the combat system by allowing existing weapons, adding new weapons to each class, and changing the way runes work. I'm not sure that's not a large feature itself.  I guess we'll have to see on that.

But yes, most games, the vast majority, have smaller expacs after 11 years.   PoF was six years ago.  Is this smaller?  Yep.  And it's because the older one wasn't sustainable. 

I didn't get 5 zones with PoF, I got 11, because I didn't pay for the living world.  I submit that 11 zones for $30, or two months of WoW, isn't really a sustainable business model.  I think Anet gave away too much for free and they're trying to change that equation, and make it more reasonable.  When I look at what I'm getting for $25 for the next year or so from SoTo, I think that's more in line with what most games would give you.

[wolfof.1842]

50 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I also never said the team was exactly the same size as it was then.  As for no large mastery, you can only do mounts once and gliding once. Thinking they're going to come up with that again is crazy. This time they're changing up the combat system by allowing existing weapons, adding new weapons to each class, and changing the way runes work. I'm not sure that's not a large feature itself.  I guess we'll have to see on that.

But yes, most games, the vast majority, have smaller expacs after 11 years.   PoF was six years ago.  Is this smaller?  Yep.  And it's because the older one wasn't sustainable. 

I didn't get 5 zones with PoF, I got 11, because I didn't pay for the living world.  I submit that 11 zones for $30, or two months of WoW, isn't really a sustainable business model.  I think Anet gave away too much for free and they're trying to change that equation, and make it more reasonable.  When I look at what I'm getting for $25 for the next year or so from SoTo, I think that's more in line with what most games would give you.

So earnings are higher in 2023, compare to 2016 but team is smaller?

Like mike O brien say 2016: 
"We have about 120 devs working on the live game, 70 devs on Expac2, and 30 devs on core teams that support both."

..and now are less devs than 220 ? 

Less devs, less maps, less mastery, smaller expansions but you still say big investment for future of GW2 ?

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 7/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, Vayne.8563 said:

I remember a woeful period of time about six months after the HoT expansion launched.  The game was a disaster at the time. It showed to me in my guild numbers and what was going on in game.  There were talks of a content draught.  Hell I even remember a huge mass exodus from the game months after it launched.

Yep, I was part of that exodus because as you say, "the game was a disaster at the time." The more 3-dimensional way to interact with the game enabled by the glider and the (unnecessarily convoluted) map design was really the only new content that had any lasting positive impact on the game but at the time, it just wasn't enough. HoT's story was meh at best, and that was the release where the number of zone-specific currency grinds started to rapidly trend upwards and the inevitable MMO power creep really took hold. Basically the game took a sharp turn in a direction I didn't like, and after trying to get value from the money I spent for a while, it just became an un-fun grind which resulted in burnout and bye-bye.

I recently returned to the game because nostalgia and I bought the (fairly cheap) expansions, and honestly at this point even if there's plenty that I dislike (and there definitely is), there's also plenty that I do like so for the price I think it was worth it. There's a whole lot of content now that I've never played, and so sure, I'll throw some USD at the Gem Shop every now and then. When something as trivial and short-lived as a fast food drive-thru lunch can cost you $10, griping about a $25-30 game that you get many many more hours of entertainment from seems petty. How much does going to a movie cost, and how long does that experience last? The value per dollar is comparably pretty good. It may not be what it was and the un-fun grind definitely still exists, but there's still entertainment value to be had from the game.

Also re thread discussions comparing this game to WOW seem a bit offsides to me. I mean yes, it's comparing 2 fantasy-based MMO's so it's technically apples to apples in that sense, but in terms of available resources to draw upon as a corporate entity, how big is ActiBlizz compared to NCSoft/Anet? That's not quite the same apples to apples scenario, is it?

[Vayne.8563]

12 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

So earnings are higher in 2023, compare to 2016 but team is smaller?

Like mike O brien say 2016: 
"We have about 120 devs working on the live game, 70 devs on Expac2, and 30 devs on core teams that support both."

..and now are less devs than 220 ? 

Less devs, less maps, less mastery, smaller expansions but you still say big investment for future of GW2 ?

Maybe not less devs, but maybe more things being worked on.  In the months after HOT we got raids and PvP tournaments for 9 months.  Even back then people were complaining. Maybe we're playing different games.

[Vayne.8563]

11 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Yep, I was part of that exodus because as you say, "the game was a disaster at the time." The more 3-dimensional way to interact with the game enabled by the glider and the (unnecessarily convoluted) map design was really the only new content that had any lasting positive impact on the game but at the time, it just wasn't enough. HoT's story was meh at best, and that was the release where the number of zone-specific currency grinds started to rapidly trend upwards and the inevitable MMO power creep really took hold. Basically the game took a sharp turn in a direction I didn't like, and after trying to get value from the money I spent for a while, it just became an un-fun grind which resulted in burnout and bye-bye.

I recently returned to the game because nostalgia and I bought the (fairly cheap) expansions, and honestly at this point even if there's plenty that I dislike (and there definitely is), there's also plenty that I do like so for the price I think it was worth it. There's a whole lot of content now that I've never played, and so sure, I'll throw some USD at the Gem Shop every now and then. When something as trivial and short-lived as a fast food drive-thru lunch can cost you $10, griping about a $25-30 game that you get many many more hours of entertainment from seems petty. How much does going to a movie cost, and how long does that experience last? The value per dollar is comparably pretty good. It may not be what it was and the un-fun grind definitely still exists, but there's still entertainment value to be had from the game.

Also re thread discussions comparing this game to WOW seem a bit offsides to me. I mean yes, it's comparing 2 fantasy-based MMO's so it's technically apples to apples in that sense, but in terms of available resources to draw upon as a corporate entity, how big is ActiBlizz compared to NCSoft/Anet? That's not quite the same apples to apples scenario, is it?

People always compare their MMO to WoW, but they're obviously not in the same wheelhouse and neither is FF XIV.

And the exodus from my guild at least, wasn't for any of the reaosns that you mentioned (though one guy left when they nerfed h is warrior build). People slowed down or stopped playing because HOT was simply too hard for them full stop.  A lot of this userbase is dead set casual and they just didn't like dying repeatedly.

[Teknomancer.4895]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

People slowed down or stopped playing because HOT was simply too hard for them full stop.

Well I was getting at that a bit with the "power creep" remark, but of course that's a thing that happens in most MMO's. It's probably inevitable and unavoidable, but that doesn't necessarily make it desirable. I won't pretend it wasn't a factor at the time because it was, it just wasn't the primary one.

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Well I was getting at that a bit with the "power creep" remark, but of course that's a thing that happens in most MMO's. It's probably inevitable and unavoidable, but that doesn't necessarily make it desirable. I won't pretend it wasn't a factor at the time because it was, it just wasn't the primary one.

In my opinion, the ramp to get to that difficulty wasn't there for people who didn't do stuff like dugneons or fractals. I loved Heart of Thorns when it came out, because it felt like a giant open world dungeon to me. It still does.  It's some of my favorite content and zones in the game.  I'm not talking about story or meta events, just the zone design itself. How you get around, figuring out where to go, the enemies that are everywhere. To me, it's brilliant. 

But I also ran some fractals before hand and did dungeons and it difficulty curve wasn't completely outrageous to me. But for people who jumped from Orr to HOT, or even Season 1 to HoT the ramp was insane. Season 2 did a bit to prepare people, but the Silverwastes and Drytop really didn't prepare players for Verdant Brink.

[Dante.1508]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:12 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

I heard that same news from an EB staffer five years ago though, and they're still here.

He said it came from head staff of EB games. 😔

Have you actually been to EB Games to check. I know all mine are gone where i live. Three different EB Games all gone.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Dante.1508