LFG for raids is awful

[Skylite.9180]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

Cant you just try to do the daily icebrood saga strike in public and wait for 10 people to start it.

That is exactly how your auto lfg would go mate.

Can't you just read what I wrote? 

 

Swear the word auto lfg starts giving some of y'all panic attacks lol like chill

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Skylite.9180 said:

No no, I think Kozumi has a point. I've been looking at these instanced raid topics on the forums and it's the same folks who keep arguing against discussions for getting a better LFG in most of these posts. lol. Like there's really no benefit for you guys to just keep telling everyone who wants a new lfg "it's impossible for us to understand how it could work, so kitten off" unless you're gaining from the system the way it is or it doesn't impact you at all. Y'all don't even have any real argument other than "we don't want auto group finder" when everyone else here making their argument specifically has been saying that's not what they want. Why would that affect you anyway? Just don't queue up in it and keep doing what you do.

 

And to whoever keeps putting the confused faces on every single post that argues for getting a new LFG: Gaslight, Gatekeep, Girlboss you queen.

Did you (and kozumi) address any of my posts here? No? Then who's "against discussion" here? Are you seriously somehow trying to build a claim that if someone disagrees with your complaint, they're selling raids? That's supposed to be your (...and kozumis) "argument" for anything here when it's simply completely false? That''s your idea of having a discussion about lfg (when, again, you seem to not be even talking about lfg, but instead about group ownership)?  🤦‍♂️

Ridiculous.

 

 

Hopefully any time now though:

On 8/11/2023 at 9:25 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

But then again, there's multiple complaints in the first post and apparently whatever I initially addressed "wasn't it" (despite still being about what OP wrote), instead it seems it's not even about lfg as much as it's about group ownership, because either:
a) OP tags up and "is expected to organize everything" when he doesn't want to (except if he -by his own words- thinks roles/boons aren't needed then he can organize group without using them and people with similar expectations will join) or
b) OP doesn't tag up and someone surely steals his group to... do another wing? I mean I do know sometimes groups get merged, but it doesn't seem to be that often, especially when it's "to do another wing", considering the chance is rather small people chose wing1, but suddenly will want to do wing 4 despite not joining that group by themselves.
How is anything about lfg supposed to fix any of that?

Edited August 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Kozumi.5816]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Did you (and kozumi) address any of my posts here? No? Then who's "against discussion" here? Are you seriously somehow trying to build a claim that if someone disagrees with your complaint, they're selling raids? That's supposed to be your (...and kozumis) "argument" for anything here when it's simply completely false? That''s your idea of having a discussion about lfg (when, again, you seem to not be even talking about lfg, but instead about group ownership)?  🤦‍♂️

Ridiculous.

 

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/using-the-premade-group-finder-6090#:~:text=The Premade Group Finder is,Player).

This is what people want.

[Linken.6345]

16 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/using-the-premade-group-finder-6090#:~:text=The Premade Group Finder is,Player).

This is what people want.

Yes and multiple people have told you this wont work for anything but dungeons and maybe fractals.

Then again if dungeons lost the extra tab and only had one tab like raids so you could see all the advertisements at once it might not even be needed.

 But then again how is that easier then starting all welcome groups in all content and pray you can complete it because that is essantialy what wou will be doing with the system you want implemented.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

12 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/using-the-premade-group-finder-6090#:~:text=The Premade Group Finder is,Player).

This is what people want.

Then people should say they want that instead of going on about how GW2 needs a Raid Finder where you queue for a role and raid and you get matched with others. Just because you see some people mention premade group finder would make more sense it isn't immediately what everyone wants. 
People aren't against what you linked, people are against Raid Finders, because they DO. NOT. WORK. in GW2. 

Premade group makes more sense for GW2 IF it is redesigned to work with GW2.

[Kozumi.5816]

12 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

es and multiple people have told you this wont work for anything but dungeons and maybe fractals.

A role option works for strikes and fractals because that's the way the game is set up....

[Sobx.1758]

37 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

A role option works for strikes and fractals because that's the way the game is set up....

And, again, this is a "lfg for raids is awful" thread. As far as I understand, your proposed solution doesn't address the topic and mentioned by OP issue/s?

As I understand, the premade group finder you linked still requires the creator of the group to accept/decline people that join and it won't check if people joining fit in the role they signed up for, so the whole thing might as well be similarly "solved" by adding markers which would be assigned to memebers of the squad by the tagged player?

Edited August 13, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Kozumi.5816]

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

requires the creator of the group to accept/decline people that join

This is needed too. I'm sick of having to kick people who won't read.

 

11 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

it won't check if people joining fit in the role they signed up for

You cannot sign up as a role you cannot fill in WoW. However, this would require Anet to actually embrace the fact they're designing "alac supports" and such(it could be tied to having the talent selected - very simple), but they seem to like pretending their game doesn't have roles/trinity still for whatever reason.

[Nimris.3781]

13 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/using-the-premade-group-finder-6090#:~:text=The Premade Group Finder is,Player).

This is what people want.

12 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

A role option works for strikes and fractals because that's the way the game is set up....

this is not how gw is set up.  this is how wow is set up with 3 distinct roles and each spec tied up to one of them. protection warrior or guardian druid cannot be anything else but a tank, so game can automaticaly assume, if prot warr joins pt, it gotta be tank. wow also has ilvl which is very convenient here as you can set min 500 in options and people that have less, wont see your group.

meanwhile in gw firebrand can be tank/quick-heal/quick-dps/pure dps or even some mix in celestial etc. (also there are more than 1 healing sets) how do you want to differentiate between them? ask a player so you can manualy assign them a role? how does it differ from just changing discription? (that you will have to change anyway...). gw also doesnt have ilvl ( gear progression) as a barrier like wow does.

i have been using wow finder for years and both (gw and wow) function the same way.  pick category/instance, write what you need (role, sometimes class/spec) and required exp in discription, when someone joins, check their rating/kp.

people told you multiple times that anything role/spec related will not work in gw, but you ignore any arguments

[Kozumi.5816]

LFGs specifically ask for roles all the time. Having that as selection (qdps, alac dps, dps, alac healer, etc..) AND forcing someone to "request to join as x role" instead of "random person joins your party without your consent and you have no idea what they are"  would be a huge improvement. A decent dev could code this in a day.

Do people think GW2 doesn't have roles...?

Edited August 13, 2023 by Kozumi.5816

[Nimris.3781]

41 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

LFGs specifically ask for roles all the time. Having that as selection (qdps, alac dps, dps, alac healer, etc..) AND forcing someone to "request to join as x role" instead of "random person joins your party without your consent and you have no idea what they are"  would be a huge improvement. A decent dev could code this in a day.

Do people think GW2 doesn't have roles...?

i already told you that game cannot determine role of players thus it cannot require/request it. how are you going to determine what spec is herald? quick-heal? or maybe quick-dps? and being tank would be based on... player writing this on chat i guess?

besides do you know how wow lfg works?  game doesnt request you do be speced as "x" role to join, because imagine that gear swap and respec exists there as well. sure rogue cannot set healer/tank role, but druid can set anything and you can only verify if he actually can perform that role only by yourself by inspecting that person after he joins party.

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

This is needed too. I'm sick of having to kick people who won't read.

The same people who didn't read will just mark every role, request to join your group and then stay silent or say they can play only one role, which would be the exact same way you're learning about their role in the current system. What then?

3 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

You cannot sign up as a role you cannot fill in WoW. However, this would require Anet to actually embrace the fact they're designing "alac supports" and such(it could be tied to having the talent selected - very simple), but they seem to like pretending their game doesn't have roles/trinity still for whatever reason.

It might sound this simple, but it's also rather easy to -following your example- slot a trait and then still not be able to provide even 50% of the boon uptime because they can either rely on other traits, chosen gear stats or weapon/utility skills. Do you expect anet to suddenly somehow establish the only correct viable builds to use in order to fit their lfg system?

Edited August 13, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Kozumi.5816]

2 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

i already told you that game cannot determine role of players thus it cannot require/request it. 

What?  Most of the time anyone  who joins my group they tell me their role, and LFGS request roles in the comments. Are they somehow doing the impossible?

It must really be hard selling raids if people are this adamantly against trying to make it easier to form groups in a MMO.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Kozumi.5816

[Cuks.8241]

On 8/11/2023 at 9:41 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

LFG tool is introduced to the player basically when it's first useful in the game, which is the moment (or level before? I don't remember) they reach the first dungeon level requirement.

Not much against moving lfg out of friendlist tab window, but I also don't see the current form as an issue. It's probably mostly an issue for people who skip tutorials.

 

On 8/11/2023 at 9:48 PM, Linken.6345 said:

Dont forget that you also get a pop up when you try to enter a dungeon solo pointing you to it.

I did give an example from another game. Let me explain how this is not even close to gw2. Yeah in gw2 new player gets introduced once they try to enter first dungeon. But this is all completely optional and not really in your face. The example I gave is basically a new player endgame tutorial/questline where its mandatory you find or create a group and complete a specific strike mission. You cant progress questline without it. Basically you're introduced to grouping systems and thrown into a strike mission very early on, no questions asked. Instanced content for dummies, click this and this and this... Everyone does this quest line, everyone, because its very rewarding also.

Now this community would probably be all in qq if they introduced it even though its not really a big deal as long as you don't make it. A middle ground would be fine also.

On 8/11/2023 at 10:24 PM, Nimris.3781 said:

it was already mentioned multiple times, that gw2 has too many different roles (some of them created by community, like handkite) making it impossible to incorporate that in lfg. it would create even bigger mess and make lfg even less accessible (imagine new player seeing 5 different roles, neither of them being dps). such solutions are good for games that have standard tank-heal-dps approach. entire gw2 would have to change to make it somehow fit

auto-lfg would be perfect for any content that can by cleared regardless of boons, so currently dungeons and drm.

also honestly if you want any grand changes to how lfg functions, boon system would have to be changed first so "less meta" group is not doing 30% of max dps.

It doesn't matter how many roles the game has. They would be set by commander. Again this is not something new, we were organising multiplayer matches for decades now, its not even specific to rpgs. And its exactly what commander does now, only its all in his head or on paper.

Some player grossly overexaggerate the difficulty of gw2. Gw2 is not a hard game for the most part. Boons have big impact but they are not required in a lot of content. Now, I would probably not use auto lfg, because player made groups are just better and more communicative. I never really used LFR in wow and rarely LFD. But I still think they are good systems. For easier strikes boons are irrelevant. DPS checks are non-existent. Even wing 1 to 4 are quite easy. I went through with groups where tank had hard time matching some DPSs toughness and in some cases (Deimos oil for example) we just told some players to just sit it out dead because they just couldnt do mechanics that effected whole group. It was still quite easy clears (not emboldened). You could also just link auto lfg to emboldened raid of the week. I've been running pug raids for many years in wow (younger and more time, also before lfr). Sometimes we cleared whole raids, sometimes we just managed a few bosses and call it a success and still left with 25 happy players. Maybe these groups won't clear whole wings but even a boss or 2 would be fun for some.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

LFGs specifically ask for roles all the time. Having that as selection (qdps, alac dps, dps, alac healer, etc..) AND forcing someone to "request to join as x role" instead of "random person joins your party without your consent and you have no idea what they are"  would be a huge improvement. A decent dev could code this in a day.

Do people think GW2 doesn't have roles...?

You seem to not pay attention to how you're trying to force a system tailored for a different game into GW2. If I play Firebrand I can be DPS, quickDPS, Heal, Healquick, and even tank as either one of those roles, while in WoW if I join as Blood DK I'm tank, I get assigned as tank, because Blood DK in WoW is tank. If I join as BM Hunter I'm DPS, I can't play anything else.

Unless the game reinforces certain stat requirements for each role it's a big gamble what you'll get as QuickDPS or healer or literally anything.

Requesting a join into groups would be a good solution, but the game has to be altered for it to work and since people really don't like being told what gear to play with there's no way it gets added in any functioning form.

[Kozumi.5816]

4 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You seem to not pay attention to how you're trying to force a system tailored for a different game into GW2. If I play Firebrand I can be DPS, quickDPS, Heal, Healquick, and even tank as either one of those roles, while in WoW if I join as Blood DK I'm tank, I get assigned as tank, because Blood DK in WoW is tank. If I join as BM Hunter I'm DPS, I can't play anything else.

Players literally join my group, and tell me their roles. They could...select it from a UI instead. 

Do you think none of this could be coded. I'm so confused, lol.

[Linken.6345]

6 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Players literally join my group, and tell me their roles. They could...select it from a UI instead. 

Do you think none of this could be coded. I'm so confused, lol.

I rather resources be spent elsewere and if you see the latest mini expansion they dont have alot of resources to spare it seems.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

51 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Players literally join my group, and tell me their roles. They could...select it from a UI instead. 

Do you think none of this could be coded. I'm so confused, lol.

If people already do it why do you want to change it? It works perfectly fine.

You keep dancing around the issue we are pointing out. WoW is rigid with the roles, if you have someone joining as a Blood DK that person is going to tank. In GW2 I can join as DPS on DH, but swap over to Healquick and even tank as FB in a split second. You'd have ot be locked into your role for that to work.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Players literally join my group, and tell me their roles. They could...select it from a UI instead. 

Ok, but then:

6 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

This is needed too. I'm sick of having to kick people who won't read.

Who exactly are you kicking from groups? I already made a response relating to that and I'm not sure why you didn't address it?

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The same people who didn't read will just mark every role, request to join your group and then stay silent or say they can play only one role, which would be the exact same way you're learning about their role in the current system. What then?

It might sound this simple, but it's also rather easy to -following your example- slot a trait and then still not be able to provide even 50% of the boon uptime because they can either rely on other traits, chosen gear stats or weapon/utility skills. Do you expect anet to suddenly somehow establish the only correct viable builds to use in order to fit their lfg system?

 

Adding some convenience -mainly for commander imo, isn't a bad idea- but it seems like it's not really solving the problem you're targeting with it? If anything, I'd be more for adding ability for the commander to add marks on party members in ui, which would make it easier for them to sort their squad and see who's missing if someone leaves without a word.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Kozumi.5816]

3 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

WoW is rigid with the roles,

So is GW2.

  

4 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

I rather resources be spent elsewere and if you see the latest mini expansion they dont have alot of resources to spare it seems.

LFG is a core feature of the game that should be updated to 2023. Anet is a AAA company, no excuses.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Kozumi.5816

[Urud.4925]

LFG is not that good, I agree. However I should also praise ArenaNet for the emboldened mode, as doing raids for first timers is quite easy now. I opened a squad in LFG (Training) "everyone welcome/first timers" already 3 times now and it was always a great experience. Most of the players (me included) were unexperienced, but you always find a couple of people who know the raid (although reading a detailed walkthrough - not just the 5-minute version - is very helpful if you're going to lead). I don't know if you posted in the training subcategory or the experienced one, but if you are new to raids, based on my experience, I would definitely recommend to wait for when the raid is emboldened and open a squad for other players with no experience. No one would kick you from such a party.

EDIT: it happened that my group was merged, now that I remember, but the commander of the other party asked me first with a whisper if we could merge. Maybe I have been lucky.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Urud.4925

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

8 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

So is GW2.

  

LFG is a core feature of the game that should be updated to 2023. Anet is a AAA company, no excuses.

As a Blood DK you can only tank, as a Holy Priest you can only heal, as a BM Hunter you can only DPS, as a Fire Mage you can only DPS, so on, that is rigid. WoW has no specs that can do multiple roles.

In GW2 if I play Druid I can be a DPS, a healer and a tank. Firebrand can be a healer, a DPS, a boonDPS and tank, that is not rigid. Most of the specs you see in GW2 can fill multiple roles just by changing to different builds.

You also nicely avoided the rest of my comment and cherry picked one part of it.

[The Boz.2038]

19 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Do people think GW2 doesn't have roles...?

The "trying real hard" continues, I see.

[Nimris.3781]

17 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

It doesn't matter how many roles the game has. They would be set by commander. Again this is not something new, we were organising multiplayer matches for decades now, its not even specific to rpgs. And its exactly what commander does now, only its all in his head or on paper.

Some player grossly overexaggerate the difficulty of gw2. Gw2 is not a hard game for the most part. Boons have big impact but they are not required in a lot of content. Now, I would probably not use auto lfg, because player made groups are just better and more communicative. I never really used LFR in wow and rarely LFD. But I still think they are good systems. For easier strikes boons are irrelevant. DPS checks are non-existent.

it does matter as game has to allow that. chat / paper will take anything you like, but game ui must have it already programmed in and it must be done well so its usefull. in case of wow you have 3 roles, marked as red(dps), green(heal), and blue/steel(tank) its clear and visable. how would that work with all the spec gw2 has? creating rainbow of roles would make it even worse. the issue is that even if you go with something simple ( like marking heal spec) you still have to remember if its heal-quick or heal-alac meaning that role division is useless at the end

wow LFD was decent, working more or less how currently fractals/strike in gw2 do.  in case of wow it is more usefull due to ilvl sorting (you can have medicore players with endgame gear do many times more dmg than top player in low gear). it also allowed you to easier check mythic dungeon score of players

but lfr... is and was always terrible. as you can imagine, many players going there are those who cant be bothered with finding guild and reading guides but still feel entitled to clear raid, add in few alt characters and you get complete mess. any boss that wasnt completly stripped of mechanics was always wipe feast. also top 3-5 were most of the time doing more dmg than rest (~20) ppl combined.

lfr could work for dungeons and drm's (tbh it would be awesome for non-challange drm, tho they would have to change reward system, introduce daily thats profitable etc.) but thats it

[Nimris.3781]

18 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

What?  Most of the time anyone  who joins my group they tell me their role, and LFGS request roles in the comments. Are they somehow doing the impossible?

It must really be hard selling raids if people are this adamantly against trying to make it easier to form groups in a MMO.

ask yourself why CAPTCHA exists and why computer programs cant answer as simple question as "mark pictures with dogs". unless they code in every single possible role ( probably over 100, changing every patch) game wont be able to determine what you play and changing single trait/utility could break code as well. terrible solution to lfg problems and would create even more "entry barriers" for new players.

just adding a simple ingame tutorial with basic explanation of mechanics and few pictures could improve accessibility to new players more than what you propose

18 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Players literally join my group, and tell me their roles. They could...select it from a UI instead. 

you mention selling raids every few posts ( i didnt do any raid in over a year, lol) if you have trouble forming groups and people dont join in, maybe thats because group leader dont give an f and is incompetent?

if you cant be bothered with organizing a group as a group leader than maybe dont be raid leader?