Mirage Axe Ambush projectile bug after 11/28 patch.

[Levetty.1279]

@apharma.3741 said:Mirage doesn’t suddenly lose the ability to bring feedback, slot a conditions cleanse, stab or anything else from mesmers amazing utility skills. To be clear many classes in PvE would give their offhand and half their class mechanic to have utility skills as good as mesmer.

Its now sub par damage does start dropping a lot though. And its hardly anything that other DPS classes can't bring if needed. Not every one but similarly other DPS classes have support that Mesmer can't bring.

[Zoser.7245]

@apharma.3741 said:Mirage doesn’t suddenly lose the ability to bring feedback, slot a conditions cleanse, stab or anything else from mesmers amazing utility skills. To be clear many classes in PvE would give their offhand and half their class mechanic to have utility skills as good as mesmer.

I've seen you literally recommending other specializations above Mirage specifically due to have better support and utility with similar dps (now better dps than Mirage).Mirage waste two utility slots with signets to reach it's actual precarious dps and will only be competitive if is reasonably above in dps and more with a chronomancer as a fixed spot. Even a weaver is more useful in the right hands. The Mirage is dismissed for now. Then talk about elitism ...

[musu.9205]

@apharma.3741 said:Mirage doesn’t suddenly lose the ability to bring feedback, slot a conditions cleanse, stab or anything else from mesmers amazing utility skills. To be clear many classes in PvE would give their offhand and half their class mechanic to have utility skills as good as mesmer.

first of all i agree , it's not end of the world .but i will explain why those utility you mentioned are not that amazing on mirage .

1. feedback is hardly useful in raid .you need it like for two bosses : sloth and matt . and mirage is really bad for sloth .no one is going to take mirage for feedback on sloth .

2. condition cleanse : dh , firebrand ,condi rev , holo , tempest have aoe condi cleanse in their meta builds , they don't even need to change anything for that .and soulbeast can slot healing spring .

3. stab is really only useful for sloth ,cairn and maybe trio and sab (adds knockback ). and mirage is only good on cairn . it can be ok on sab if you already have good aoe dps .

4. clone build could replace offhand sword with focus. that's far better than the utility you mentioned . it can be useful for gors , sab , xera ,wing 5 first boss . mirage is bad for xera tho .

"To be clear many classes in PvE would give their offhand and half their class mechanic to have utility skills as good as mesmer."some of them do wish that without cost of aoe ,dps and their own utility .and most of them want mesmer utility on a support spec not on a dps spec .i mean before hot , we didn't see much love to mesmer in dungeons , coz guard brings everything and better than core mesmer except portal . it doesn't suddenly change with mirage . the only thing changed is that any other class got far better utility than their core spec . for the record , 30k dps is like holo without kit ,and holo has better utility than mesmer .

but let's face it , in current raid , aoe and burst dmg have more value than mes utility .not to mention war , rev , engi could slot stats boost .in my experience , i have seen that people swapped to dh , holo , war , soulbeast ,tempest or firebrand for their utilities in raid when we struggled . but i have never seen anyone said : hey i will bring mirage to save the day , except on matt .

as for overall dps decrease , i don't think anet will do that . i also don't think it's right to reduce raw dps from classes now except staff weaver.they should rework banner and spirits . that will reduce overall dps .

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"Josa.5067" Yes I was mistaken I was still thinking of the old benchmarks but I still think most classes could take a 10% shave though that would be extremely hard to do without doing something weird like removing sun/frost spirit. Regardless clone mirage doing 28-29k doesn’t mean you can’t run it and easily clear all raids and condi phantasm mirage or power core mes will produce reliable on boss dps with simple rotations so I really don’t understand why everyone is so up in arms over the nerf. Sure it’s a deep nerf but it hasn’t put mesmer in a spot where it does so much less damage it cannot be taken especially now all raid groups have a 5th available spot.

You really don't understand why everyone is so up in arms? But somehow you recognize that it was a "deep nerf". Listen. I've been playing MMOs for quite some time, and a "bug fix" that causes up to a 40% decrease in damage and places a low-utility DPS spec significantly below most specs that have greater utility is amateur night. Plain and simple. This nerf was WAY too much. And that's why mesmer players are disappointed about it.

[musu.9205]

@apharma.3741 said:

I said it should do less damage because of the amount of support it can bring, there’s a lot of classes that have little to no support options at all in their DPS builds because they need trait lines outside of dps to bring that support. I also said guard should do less damage but that’s not conducive to your agenda of painting me as someone that hates mesmer so I can see why you omitted that. To clarify less damage doesn’t mean it needs to do 10k less, 3 or 4K is a good spot for classes that have more flexibility to them, they retain competitiveness for flexibility.

" there’s a lot of classes that have little to no support options at all in their DPS builds "i do respect your opinion on mesmer in general but i'm not sure if you are serious about this .

DH and firebrand : aoe block , aoe heal + condi cleanse +good cc +can bring better reflect , stab or condi cleanse than mes ,back up quickness (better than TW ).

holo : water field + fire field +aoe condi cleanse +insanely good cc + blind field +a lot of blast finisher , if 30k is ok then kitless holo can bring well literally everything in game except portal .

war : good cc + blast finisher +fire field , if needed it can bring aoe res as elite banner .

tempest : group stun break + rebound +water field(with cost of dps ) + fire field + vuln stack .

renegade : aoe daze +aoe heal + might stack +fire field +blast finisher +aoe condi absorb and resistance . due to energy system they can't use them all at once . but still pretty good for pve .

soulbeast : entangle +healing spring +fire field , if really needed they can bring protect me or S&R or spirit .

scourge : massive aoe boon removal +massive aoe condi cleanse +barrier + epi .

condi daredevil : good cc .

weaver: none

mirage : chaos storm from heal +reflect or condi cleanse + moa (which is very limited on mirage ) or backup TW

yeah mirage is better than thief ,weaver , war without banner and maybe tempest . but that's not a lot of class .

and btw all those amazing support of mirage are from a single skill we can swap out : crystal sandshave you considered , it's more wrong that a almost pure damage skill (including mirror and ambush )of a pure single target dps spec does petty dps /burst to a point that everyone is trying to swap it with other "amazing utility "from core mesmer ?

[musu.9205]

deleted double post

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:You really don't understand why everyone is so up in arms? But somehow you recognize that it was a "deep nerf". Listen. I've been playing MMOs for quite some time, and a "bug fix" that causes up to a 40% decrease in damage and places a low-utility DPS spec significantly below most specs that have greater utility is amateur night. Plain and simple. This nerf was WAY too much. And that's why mesmer players are disappointed about it.

I think its important to recognize that this isn't a direct nerf, but a fix on unintended behaviour. Acknowledging it is quite important if we want to see the mess that is ambush now. Heck I'd say its a nerf if staff/scepter ambushes can deal 34k but they can barely get pass 25k.

I think the simple thing is to buff all existing ambush duration/damage by x1.5-x1.75 in PvE ONLY so mesmer can reach 34k like the rest of top dps.

[Damio Roncartia.7041]

@NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:You really don't understand why everyone is so up in arms? But somehow you recognize that it was a "deep nerf". Listen. I've been playing MMOs for quite some time, and a "bug fix" that causes up to a 40% decrease in damage and places a low-utility DPS spec significantly below most specs that have greater utility is amateur night. Plain and simple. This nerf was WAY too much. And that's why mesmer players are disappointed about it.

I think its important to recognize that this isn't a direct nerf, but a fix on unintended behaviour. Acknowledging it is quite important if we want to see the mess that is ambush now. Heck I'd say its a nerf if staff/scepter ambushes can deal 34k but they can barely get pass 25k.

I think the simple thing is to buff all existing ambush duration/damage by x1.5-x1.75 in PvE ONLY so mesmer can reach 34k like the rest of top dps.

I'd be completely fine with an adjustment of this nature. I can't deny ambush skills in general are just lackluster. I would like to see the clone build I was using make a comeback to some degree, and a buff like this would universally make Mirage more useful and versatile, giving me what I want, while allowing more experimentation with other options for players who weren't as satisfied with the previous rotation or playstyle.

[Mitsuko.3162]

What is more upsetting is the lack of any comment by the development team on this issue.
They are slient.
Given the outcry you would think they would take this opportunity to address the concerns that the community has here, especially the ~38 dps nerf.
Some players invest a lot of time, resources, effort and sometimes money into their characters which they just change overnight.

I would like to see a response from a dev and a plan of action to address this.

[Damio Roncartia.7041]

@Mitsuko.3162 said:What is more upsetting is the failure for any comment by the development team on this issue. They are slient. Given the outcry you would think they would take this opportunity to address the concerns the community has here, especially the ~38 dps nerf. Some players invest a lot of time, resources, effort and sometimes money into their characters which they just change overnight. I would like to see a response from a dev and a plan of action to address this.

Well I will say with the Christmas event right around the corner, we may see some class adjustment then. I agree this needs attention, but we can at least wait to see what updates are released when Wintersday starts. That's what I'm doing before I think about bringing out my torch or pitchfork. #edit# Hey Anet, can I get a pitchfork skin for axe so I can be an angry Mirage mob?

[AliamRationem.5172]

@NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:You really don't understand why everyone is so up in arms? But somehow you recognize that it was a "deep nerf". Listen. I've been playing MMOs for quite some time, and a "bug fix" that causes up to a 40% decrease in damage and places a low-utility DPS spec significantly below most specs that have greater utility is amateur night. Plain and simple. This nerf was WAY too much. And that's why mesmer players are disappointed about it.

I think its important to recognize that this isn't a direct nerf, but a fix on unintended behaviour. Acknowledging it is quite important if we want to see the mess that is ambush now. Heck I'd say its a nerf if staff/scepter ambushes can deal 34k but they can barely get pass 25k.

I think the simple thing is to buff all existing ambush duration/damage by x1.5-x1.75 in PvE ONLY so mesmer can reach 34k like the rest of top dps.

Both issues were known. The axe ambush bug only served to highlight how underpowered the ambush mechanic is across all other weapon types (and axe as well, once it began functioning as intended!). Ideally, both issues should have been resolved simultaneously. Instead, they opted to fix the unintended behavior first. This is problematic as the bug was the only thing propping up a class that really lacks the offensive power it needs to perform in PvE.

I agree with the overall aim of your solution. Ambush is clearly underpowered, and leaving the axe bug in place was not a viable long-term solution even if its damage had not been too high. I favor making Infinite Horizon baseline. If Dune Cloak built into a clone ambush build is insufficient to boost damage for these builds to appropriate levels, then either buff Dune Cloak until it's strong enough or re-evaluate base damage for each skill as you suggest. As Dune Cloak is a condi-specific boost, it might be a good idea to make the replacement for IH a power ambush booster.

In my opinion, ambush is a fine idea that just needs some tweaking to get it right. I think they were afraid it would be too powerful, hence the choice to take up a GM trait with IH and low-ball base damage across the board. They had some idea that ambush would only really be a big thing for IH builds, but I think this was a mistake.

[Damio Roncartia.7041]

An idea that'll allow power clone mirage to work: make part of mirage's base trait that clones now do more damage based on power. Remove the hard cap on their raw damage for mirage only, and add some form of soft cap if needed instead. That would allow for clones to deal more damage overall, without buff benefits as is normal, and raise overall DPS for both condition and power builds. It would also make Mirage feel very much unique, and give it some form of direction and drive it currently seems to lack.

[Cantatus.4065]

I've come to the realization that we've all missed the point on how the mirage is meant to function. Right along we've been assuming it was meant to be a spec focused primarily around dps. And, for the past couple months, that's actually what it looked like. Mirage did a ton of dps. We all agreed that it was probably too much, but we were glad we had what we've wanted for so long: a high dps mesmer. But now that's gone. The bug was fixed and mirage took a heavy hit, and now we're unhappy again. But, see, we've been so caught up in dps numbers and mechanics and skills and stats that we missed the pure genius of Anet's design.

Those dps numbers? A mesmer spec finally doing a ton of damage? All those years of waiting for just this? Don't you get it? That was the mirage. We wandered the desert in search of dps and finally found it - or we thought we did. But just like that, it was gone. All this time discussing meta builds and Anet completely outplayed us by creating the ultimate meta spec. Mirage isn't just the name of the spec, it was the illusion all along!

Seriously, most brilliant class I've ever played.

(/purely tongue-in-cheek)

[Josa.5067]

@Cantatus.4065 said:I've come to the realization that we've all missed the point on how the mirage is meant to function. Right along we've been assuming it was meant to be a spec focused primarily around dps. And, for the past couple months, that's actually what it looked like. Mirage did a ton of dps. We all agreed that it was probably too much, but we were glad we had what we've wanted for so long: a high dps mesmer. But now that's gone. The bug was fixed and mirage took a heavy hit, and now we're unhappy again. But, see, we've been so caught up in dps numbers and mechanics and skills and stats that we missed the pure genius of Anet's design.

Those dps numbers? A mesmer spec finally doing a ton of damage? All those years of waiting for just this? Don't you get it? That was the mirage. We wandered the desert in search of dps and finally found it - or we thought we did. But just like that, it was gone. All this time discussing meta builds and Anet completely outplayed us by creating the ultimate meta spec. Mirage isn't just the name of the spec, it was the illusion all along!

Seriously, most brilliant class I've ever played.

(/purely tongue-in-cheek)

This must be the one true answer to all of this!

ANet devs truly are geniuses.

[Zadier.4085]

So have we determined if there actually WAS a new bug introduced by the last bug fix? People were bringing that up earlier, that it seems like the clones' axe ambushes are apparently now bugged and sometimes just don't hit any enemies at all. There doesn't seem to have been any further information about it or anyone else testing to verify if it's true or false. If there's a possibility that Mirage's current state is due to another bug it seems like that should be either confirmed or refuted before arguing over the balance. Fixing a bug if there is one would probably be faster than waiting for any balance changes too.

[Fye.7594]

Someone tried using the Mirage Clone build with Staff or Scepter, instead of Axe?I'm interested in the possible performance with those weapons... since it seens like only the Axe Ambush was nerfed.

(I would test myself if I had a Mirage at 80 with proper equipment)

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Fye.7594 said:Someone tried using the Mirage Clone build with Staff or Scepter, instead of Axe?I'm interested in the possible performance with those weapons... since it seens like only the Axe Ambush was nerfed.

(I would test myself if I had a Mirage at 80 with proper equipment)

I remember someone saying its arround 24-26 k.

Axe clones are the strongest since they have a multihit autoattack (third Strike of auto). This brings in more bleedings with sharper images. Same with its ambush. Therefore axe clones are in generell the best.

[zakuruchi.4086]

Infinite horizon baseline is an interesting idea. I'd vote for that too. It will open up a more unique gameplay style (ambush) for all weapons, not just axe.

[Carighan.6758]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Mirage should be the highest dps spec in the game, it has Z E R O utility.

That's not entirely true. Lots of interrupts, reflects, emergency quickness and slow.

[Carighan.6758]

@apharma.3741 said:So now we just need every other dps spec to be nerfed back down to about 30k and everything will be alright.

Source: https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-may-balance-patch/

That is indeed true. Though of course it had to start with Mesmers, because screw the worst-designed class in the game first, they'll miss DPS the least. :<

[Carighan.6758]

@Levetty.1279 said:No they need to buff Mirage back up, traits, ambushes, damage the whole lot.

I don't understand people like you who want to actively make the game worse for everybody else. What have you actually achieved now that you have made the game worse for a bunch of people with the Mirage nerf? Does it make you feel better? Did me going around finally doing story achievements on my Mesmer make your life worse in any way?

But, how is "higher DPS in general" actually better for everyone.

All it does is make PvE feel absolutely boring because everything dies in 0,5 seconds flat. DPS was hyperinflated since the launch of Ascended gear years ago, despite in theory nothing having changed. That's not okay. Unless PvE gets a huge do-over and every mob's HP gets increased by 100%-200% + their defensive skills adjusted, we really ought to lose significant amounts of damage again. It has a few key upsides:

• PvE becomes a more meaningful combat scenario again outside of boss fights.
• Scaling in mass events can be rewound to less crazy levels, removing the situations where an event scales with 50+ players doing something nearby but now the 10 player doing this event have 0 chance because the scaling took into account 60 HoT/PoF players, giving the enemy stupid levels of health and breakbar.
• PvP might see people live long enough that they notice their HP going down.
• full-zerk gear becomes less of an absolute gain, making the total loss of damage from slotting some defense less, increasing gear options
• Siege etc in WvW might actually be built of solid materials again.