it's time to rework stealth

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I agree. Stealth is too binary. It's either fully invisible or nothing. It needs more moving parts, more knobs and levers so it can be adjusted better in the future:
I think this post that I wrote in 2018 still applies:
 

Quote

Stealth needs a rework to address its bugs, its issues and the problems it causes.
It can't be left as it is, because problems from it keep popping up. Eventually, something will have to be done. But it can't be removed, and there's definitely no quick fixes for it, and changes should not just be done to nerf it. It doesn't needs nerfing. It needs fixing. We need new mechanics and effects to address the problems it has for both those using stealth and those facing enemies with stealth.

At this moment I think it all comes down to 4 points. Here are the points and examples of possible measures to deal with them:

• Fix its bugs:
  • When leaving stealth, players seem to load the enemy model right after stealth ends. Because of this, some people will take longer to see the model at all, and the model will play the animation for the current action from the start. So when it may seem the finisher just started, it may be actually ending, and properly timing interrupts becomes practically impossible.
  • Losing any effect that gives stealth will often reveal the character even if they still have other stealth effects like Camouflage or Hide in Shadows.
• Reduce the duration of its full invisibility when fighting against players, while keeping its full capabilities against AI for the whole duration.
  • The longer full stealth lasts, the harder is to tell where the cloaked enemy is. And that greatly reduces the risks of using stealth as both an offensive and defensive tool. Yeah, experienced players can deal with it, but the game isn't just for experienced players. It has to be intuitive for all and welcoming for newbies.
  • The way to address this problem that I like the most is "Stealth Decay". After a1-3 seconds depending on the source of the stealth, traits and upgrades, stealth would go from completely invisible to partially visible. This partial visibility would be even more noticeable while the thief is moving.
  • Decayed stealth would keep the player untargetable, and most NPCs and player-controlled AI would still ignore them, but players would be able to see them if they pay attention, as they would appear partially visible with a translucent effect. Even if they can't be targeted, AoEs, cleaves and aimed projectiles can still hit them, just like always. It'd be just a bit easier to know where to hit with them.
  • Getting stealth from combos and other players would not reset stealth back to fully invisible, with a few exceptions. For example, Mass Invisibility would reset stealth on allies and have a skill fact that says "Resets ally stealth" , but Veil would not.
  • Using skills and triggering traits that give stealth to self would reset stealth to fully invisible.
  • Getting stealth from allied skills or from skill combos in a smoke field would not reset full invisibility, it would just reset the time of decayed stealth.
  • And of course stealth from instance mechanics and environmental effects would have its own behavior depending on its purposes. For example, the stealth from WvW stealth fountains in Obsidian sanction would remain fully invisible for their whole duration.
• Add an adjustable factor for revealed other than its sources and durations.
  • Revealed is an "all or nothing" mechanic. A skill either reveals or it doesn't. That doesn't leave room for adjustment and balance. One way to address this problem is a new "Suspicion" mechanic.
  • Suspicion would be a stacking effect that is accumulated with certain actions done while under stealth. When someone gets a certain number of stacks, they would lose stealth and all suspicion stacks, and get revealed for the same duration as when getting revealed with a direct attack. Revealing oneself with a direct attack would also remove all Suspicion stacks.
  • It would be accumulated from actions that should not reveal right away or if done sparingly, but should reveal eventually if done repeatedly, like:
    • Applying or having DPS conditions ticking on enemies.
    • Finishing an enemy
    • Getting hit with direct attacks. Standing in front of someone to attack them while they swing a weapon has never been a good idea, but suspicion would make it an ever worse idea.
    • Hitting with a stray projectiles that were fired before getting stealth, that hits after getting it. One may give stealth to allies, but they can't just stop a projectile already fired. Which means that without voice chat to warn them to stop attacking right before getting stealth, stealth given to allies firing projectiles is often wasted. These projectiles can't be made no to trigger stealth or that would be exploited. Suspicion fixes that by letting them hit just a bit from stealth without losing it, but not do it repeatedly.
    • Missed attacks that hit nothing would give a small amounts of suspicion, like when spamming an attack without anyone in range, hitting the air; or someone moves away from the trajectory of a projectile, or moves behind an obstacle and the attack is obstructed. Missed attacks from being blind would give a bit more suspicion that attacking the air, but still a small amount.
    • Attacking someone blocking or invulnerable would give a large amount of suspicion or reveal right away as always.
    • Triggering traps and having your traps triggered. Stacking traps would stack so much Suspicion that it would always reveal, but it should be possible to use skills like Shadow Trap without sparingly being revealed right away from triggering it. Walking over too many traps even while evading should also reveal eventually.
  • Revealed caused by enemies will not reset stacks of suspicion. Only receiving revealed from Suspicion or one's own attacks would reset stacks of suspicion back to 0.
  • Shadow Meld would still remove revealed, but it would not clear stacks of suspicion.
• Add new a mechanic to allow for more stealth counters while keeping stealth's defensive capabilities:
  • We can't have a lot of AoE revealing skills like Detection Pulse, Sight Beyond Sight or Gaze of Darkness because there are no counters for it other than Shadow Meld. Removing revealed is something so troublesome it has to be limited to an elite skill. If a mechanic was added to act as a 'stability' for stealth, that prevents being instantly revealed when entering stealth, that would be solved by giving a pre-emptive safety tool without giving more Revealed removal.
  • For example, Unrevealable would be an effect given by some skills that cause stealth, but not all sources of stealth. Unrevealable would usually be seen in skills meant to have a survival or panic button use like Hide in Shadows, Blinding Powder or Decoy.
  • It would last very little, like just from 0.75s to 1s, as it's mostly meant to avoid spam of revealing skills to be able to get away from danger.
  • It would only apply to self, skills that give allies stealth and make oneself unrevealable won't make other allies unrevealable, with a few exceptions like Mass Invisibility.
  • Revealed makes characters immune to Unrevealable like it does with stealth, so it will only work while not revealed or if the stealth skill giving unrevealable also removes revealed like Shadow Meld.
  • Getting Unrevealable would also reset decayed stealth to full stealth.
  • Unrevealable would not prevent being revealed by attacking enemies or from getting Suspicion, only being revealed by enemy skills.
  • Stealth from combos on smoke fields would never give unrevealable.

With all these new mechanics combined, stealth can be made not to stack, but also last way more, having stealth skills that give 2-4s being able to give 10s or more. And even being able to make an Elite thief signet with a passive effect that constantly pulses decayed stealth and an active effect that gives stealth for 10s, and unrevealable for 0.75s.At the same time, revealing skills could be more frequent. For example:

• Hallowed Ground could pulse 1s revealed, or cause it one time for 3s when cloaked enemies try to enter the area.
• "Nothing Can Save You!" could deal 6s of revealed.
• Rangers could get a Bat land pet and and a Dolphin underwater pet that have an Echolocation skill that deals 5s AoE revealed.
• An elementalist sand-themed pulsing AoE like sandstorm could also pulse revealed.
• Null Field could also pulse or cause revealed on the first or last pulse.

With changes like these examples, using and countering stealth would require more skillful play, rather than just nonsense like spamming around necromancer marks hopping one will trigger, or having your entire group hinder their builds bringing the few skills that reveal.

 

[Burnfall.9573]

On 8/23/2023 at 7:28 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I went to WvW recently and spent 40 minutes either getting hunted by groups of 2-4 or trying to contribute meager damage in a zerg, when I wasnt getting revealed by keeps or sentries.

Where exactly is the thief toxicity? Besides in people's heads, I mean. Cause it kinda seems people are just mad at what they used to be.

Let say, a player who only had 1 hour in the day to attract a healthy competitive experience.. Than spend the hour...chasing a Thief Profession player, whose actions was only to  cause a negative Toxic unhealthy detrimental experience for the player.

Who is design with Abusive, Malevolent mechanics and are equipped with Spamming, Trolling, Flaming, Harassing and Torture tools and skills..

How is that not Toxic to the player experience and state of mentality? 

 

I know that you are a good Thief Profession player including other Thief Profession players who strive to play fair and being Compassionate to your opponents but the Truth stand, facing a Thief Profession is never fun, healthy or enjoyable to the player experience.

Giving in1 hour of your day to a Detrimental repetitive experience....will eventually push one away to a competitor who works hard, cares and makes the best effort.. of giving the player...the best improvement of a  healthy competitive experience that they can ever dream off.

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Eddie.9143]

On 8/23/2023 at 5:06 AM, semak.7481 said:

6s forced reveal if you lose stealth when it expires and 9s if you attack when you have stealth up. They can buff stealth attack for thief a bit, but other than that I wouldnt do anything for them.

I actually really like this.

 

I'd be cool with 4 second reveal for leaving stealth without attacking and 7 seconds reveal after attacking. 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Naw it's not time, more like it's time for u all to accept stealth is what it is and move on or get gud. Stealth a part of combat mechanics in every mmo, rpgs and the like and gw2 is among the most fair. Quit whining and learn to play.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

19 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Naw it's not time, more like it's time for u all to accept stealthbis what it is and move on or get gud. Stealth a part of combat mechanics in every mmo, rpgs and the like and gw2 is among the most fair. Quit winning and learn to play.

"Fair" XD
I'll never stop winning though, ty.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 9/17/2023 at 10:29 AM, MithranArkanere.8957 said:

I agree. Stealth is too binary. It's either fully invisible or nothing. It needs more moving parts, more knobs and levers so it can be adjusted better in the future:
I think this post that I wrote in 2018 still applies:

Quote

Stealth needs a rework to address its bugs, its issues and the problems it causes.
It can't be left as it is, because problems from it keep popping up. Eventually, something will have to be done. But it can't be removed, and there's definitely no quick fixes for it, and changes should not just be done to nerf it. It doesn't needs nerfing. It needs fixing. We need new mechanics and effects to address the problems it has for both those using stealth and those facing enemies with stealth.

At this moment I think it all comes down to 4 points. Here are the points and examples of possible measures to deal with them:

• Fix its bugs:
  • When leaving stealth, players seem to load the enemy model right after stealth ends. Because of this, some people will take longer to see the model at all, and the model will play the animation for the current action from the start. So when it may seem the finisher just started, it may be actually ending, and properly timing interrupts becomes practically impossible.
  • Losing any effect that gives stealth will often reveal the character even if they still have other stealth effects like Camouflage or Hide in Shadows.
• Reduce the duration of its full invisibility when fighting against players, while keeping its full capabilities against AI for the whole duration.
  • The longer full stealth lasts, the harder is to tell where the cloaked enemy is. And that greatly reduces the risks of using stealth as both an offensive and defensive tool. Yeah, experienced players can deal with it, but the game isn't just for experienced players. It has to be intuitive for all and welcoming for newbies.
  • The way to address this problem that I like the most is "Stealth Decay". After a1-3 seconds depending on the source of the stealth, traits and upgrades, stealth would go from completely invisible to partially visible. This partial visibility would be even more noticeable while the thief is moving.
  • Decayed stealth would keep the player untargetable, and most NPCs and player-controlled AI would still ignore them, but players would be able to see them if they pay attention, as they would appear partially visible with a translucent effect. Even if they can't be targeted, AoEs, cleaves and aimed projectiles can still hit them, just like always. It'd be just a bit easier to know where to hit with them.
  • Getting stealth from combos and other players would not reset stealth back to fully invisible, with a few exceptions. For example, Mass Invisibility would reset stealth on allies and have a skill fact that says "Resets ally stealth" , but Veil would not.
  • Using skills and triggering traits that give stealth to self would reset stealth to fully invisible.
  • Getting stealth from allied skills or from skill combos in a smoke field would not reset full invisibility, it would just reset the time of decayed stealth.
  • And of course stealth from instance mechanics and environmental effects would have its own behavior depending on its purposes. For example, the stealth from WvW stealth fountains in Obsidian sanction would remain fully invisible for their whole duration.
• Add an adjustable factor for revealed other than its sources and durations.
  • Revealed is an "all or nothing" mechanic. A skill either reveals or it doesn't. That doesn't leave room for adjustment and balance. One way to address this problem is a new "Suspicion" mechanic.
  • Suspicion would be a stacking effect that is accumulated with certain actions done while under stealth. When someone gets a certain number of stacks, they would lose stealth and all suspicion stacks, and get revealed for the same duration as when getting revealed with a direct attack. Revealing oneself with a direct attack would also remove all Suspicion stacks.
  • It would be accumulated from actions that should not reveal right away or if done sparingly, but should reveal eventually if done repeatedly, like:
    • Applying or having DPS conditions ticking on enemies.
    • Finishing an enemy
    • Getting hit with direct attacks. Standing in front of someone to attack them while they swing a weapon has never been a good idea, but suspicion would make it an ever worse idea.
    • Hitting with a stray projectiles that were fired before getting stealth, that hits after getting it. One may give stealth to allies, but they can't just stop a projectile already fired. Which means that without voice chat to warn them to stop attacking right before getting stealth, stealth given to allies firing projectiles is often wasted. These projectiles can't be made no to trigger stealth or that would be exploited. Suspicion fixes that by letting them hit just a bit from stealth without losing it, but not do it repeatedly.
    • Missed attacks that hit nothing would give a small amounts of suspicion, like when spamming an attack without anyone in range, hitting the air; or someone moves away from the trajectory of a projectile, or moves behind an obstacle and the attack is obstructed. Missed attacks from being blind would give a bit more suspicion that attacking the air, but still a small amount.
    • Attacking someone blocking or invulnerable would give a large amount of suspicion or reveal right away as always.
    • Triggering traps and having your traps triggered. Stacking traps would stack so much Suspicion that it would always reveal, but it should be possible to use skills like Shadow Trap without sparingly being revealed right away from triggering it. Walking over too many traps even while evading should also reveal eventually.
  • Revealed caused by enemies will not reset stacks of suspicion. Only receiving revealed from Suspicion or one's own attacks would reset stacks of suspicion back to 0.
  • Shadow Meld would still remove revealed, but it would not clear stacks of suspicion.
• Add new a mechanic to allow for more stealth counters while keeping stealth's defensive capabilities:
  • We can't have a lot of AoE revealing skills like Detection Pulse, Sight Beyond Sight or Gaze of Darkness because there are no counters for it other than Shadow Meld. Removing revealed is something so troublesome it has to be limited to an elite skill. If a mechanic was added to act as a 'stability' for stealth, that prevents being instantly revealed when entering stealth, that would be solved by giving a pre-emptive safety tool without giving more Revealed removal.
  • For example, Unrevealable would be an effect given by some skills that cause stealth, but not all sources of stealth. Unrevealable would usually be seen in skills meant to have a survival or panic button use like Hide in Shadows, Blinding Powder or Decoy.
  • It would last very little, like just from 0.75s to 1s, as it's mostly meant to avoid spam of revealing skills to be able to get away from danger.
  • It would only apply to self, skills that give allies stealth and make oneself unrevealable won't make other allies unrevealable, with a few exceptions like Mass Invisibility.
  • Revealed makes characters immune to Unrevealable like it does with stealth, so it will only work while not revealed or if the stealth skill giving unrevealable also removes revealed like Shadow Meld.
  • Getting Unrevealable would also reset decayed stealth to full stealth.
  • Unrevealable would not prevent being revealed by attacking enemies or from getting Suspicion, only being revealed by enemy skills.
  • Stealth from combos on smoke fields would never give unrevealable.

With all these new mechanics combined, stealth can be made not to stack, but also last way more, having stealth skills that give 2-4s being able to give 10s or more. And even being able to make an Elite thief signet with a passive effect that constantly pulses decayed stealth and an active effect that gives stealth for 10s, and unrevealable for 0.75s.At the same time, revealing skills could be more frequent. For example:

• Hallowed Ground could pulse 1s revealed, or cause it one time for 3s when cloaked enemies try to enter the area.
• "Nothing Can Save You!" could deal 6s of revealed.
• Rangers could get a Bat land pet and and a Dolphin underwater pet that have an Echolocation skill that deals 5s AoE revealed.
• An elementalist sand-themed pulsing AoE like sandstorm could also pulse revealed.
• Null Field could also pulse or cause revealed on the first or last pulse.

With changes like these examples, using and countering stealth would require more skillful play, rather than just nonsense like spamming around necromancer marks hopping one will trigger, or having your entire group hinder their builds bringing the few skills that reveal.

See, this is where I can start agreeing with things. As long as you're respecting the mechanics that keep the thief playstyle working, I don't mind something like stealth decay or stacking nuance that isn't as hamfisted as "unga no stealth they can use half second evade for half their init to sustain".

I like this post. It addresses problems without using a meat cleaver, which is always nice on these forums. 

Quote

Missed attacks that hit nothing would give a small amounts of suspicion, like when spamming an attack without anyone in range,

Keep in mind that we need to attack fields for stealth, so perhaps this should only apply to misses instead of globally~ 

Also keep in mind WvW blobs will obliterate decayed stealth, so on top of this system rework there would need to be some adjustments to WvW spread or to thief skills themselves. Otherwise ratting stonemist/keeps becomes unviable, and that's like one of the only places besides harassing stragglers thieves have footing in wvw. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[aspry.6975]

cry harder!

[Burnfall.9573]

On 8/22/2023 at 4:06 PM, Eddie.9143 said:

through every expansion, adding specs, adding runes, changing spells - stealth has ALWAYS been impossible to balance.

gotta rework it, thieves constantly being able to disengage and leave when it's not going well is bs. 

Anet has confirmed that they will continue to ignore The Community 12 years+ concerns of Stealth Mechanic. As you clearly see, Thief Profession is engaging while in Stealth Mechanic and not taking any damages while in stealth.

In other word, Anet has once again, has choosen to disregard The Community long endering concerns regarding their Toxic Gaming Experiences, by Allowing, Promoting, Encouraging and Prolonging: Toxic Bad Game Design to create an UnHealthy Anti-Competitive Gaming Experience and Destructive Environment to contine to negatively affect the players experiences.

Take as many look as you want, to witness once again, Anet continual purse to go against the players wishes for a Posititve Competitive Gaming Experience and doing everything they can, to not  give Guild Wars 2 a Fair Chance for a Healthy Fair Competitive Experience for the players including their environment.

 

Attacks+Damage Does Not Reveal/Break Stealth Mechanic!!

0:13-0:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcVVf-wYWy8&t=32s

 

(All 12 years efforts, time and resources spend by The Community to Hope and having having Faith for Anet to Change after 11 years, and with even starting a new year....) 

This is the Future, Vision, Philosophy and Future of Guild Wars 2: Ignore The Player Experience, Concern At All Cost!!

 

"Once you realize that they never cared, though, it can also be freeing. You can move forward, you can let go of the person and realize that they weren’t worth your time. You gave your all, and they gave nothing in return. You may have helped them out with something... You may be in the process of helping someone out when you realize that that’s all you are—a means to an end.

If you have someone in your life that’s treating you this way, the best thing for you is to let them go. Set them loose, and hope that they’re going to change their ways. Process what made you care about them, and realize that overall you were doing the best that you could. You didn’t do anything to deserve someone treating you so poorly.

Caring about someone takes a lot of energy, and now that they’re no longer in your life, you’re going to slowly gain it back. Put the care into yourself.

Not everyone we love or care about is going to feel the same, and unfortunately there are people that are more than willing to take advantage of the situation. You need to know that you deserve so much better than someone that’s willing to hurt you just for their own benefit."

 

Edited February 15 by Burnfall.9573

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Bro said "resetto kaiba" 💀

Okay let's run the discussion back I'm game

[JosephKatz.9375]

On 9/17/2023 at 2:33 PM, Eddie.9143 said:

I actually really like this.

 

I'd be cool with 4 second reveal for leaving stealth without attacking and 7 seconds reveal after attacking. 

Do you even realize what you’re saying LOL

[JosephKatz.9375]

2 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Anet has confirmed that they will continue to ignore The Community 12 years+ concerns of Stealth Mechanic. As you clearly see, Thief Profession is engaging while in Stealth Mechanic and not taking any damages while in stealth.

In other word, Anet has once again, has choosen to disregard The Community long endering concerns regarding their Toxic Gaming Experiences, by Allowing, Promoting, Encouraging and Prolonging: Toxic Bad Game Design to create an UnHealthy Anti-Competitive Gaming Experience and Destructive Environment to contine to negatively affect the players experiences.

Take as many look as you want, to witness once again, Anet continual purse to go against the players wishes for a Posititve Competitive Gaming Experience and doing everything they can, to not  give Guild Wars 2 a Fair Chance for a Healthy Fair Competitive Experience for the players including their environment.

 

Attacks+Damage Does Not Reveal/Break Stealth Mechanic!!

0:13-0:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcVVf-wYWy8&t=32s

 

(All 12 years efforts, time and resources spend by The Community to Hope and having having Faith for Anet to Change after 11 years, and with even starting a new year....) 

This is the Future, Vision, Philosophy and Future of Guild Wars 2: Ignore The Player Experience, Concern At All Cost!!

 

"Once you realize that they never cared, though, it can also be freeing. You can move forward, you can let go of the person and realize that they weren’t worth your time. You gave your all, and they gave nothing in return. You may have helped them out with something... You may be in the process of helping someone out when you realize that that’s all you are—a means to an end.

If you have someone in your life that’s treating you this way, the best thing for you is to let them go. Set them loose, and hope that they’re going to change their ways. Process what made you care about them, and realize that overall you were doing the best that you could. You didn’t do anything to deserve someone treating you so poorly.

Caring about someone takes a lot of energy, and now that they’re no longer in your life, you’re going to slowly gain it back. Put the care into yourself.

Not everyone we love or care about is going to feel the same, and unfortunately there are people that are more than willing to take advantage of the situation. You need to know that you deserve so much better than someone that’s willing to hurt you just for their own benefit."

 

Go play a thief yourself in ranked pvp and post your win/loss over 20 matches. We’ll take you seriously depending on how that turns out. I’ll wait.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

27 minutes ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

Go play a thief yourself in ranked pvp and post your win/loss over 20 matches. We’ll take you seriously depending on how that turns out. I’ll wait.

Dont wait on that

If anyone that reached this conclusion did this the thread wouldn't exist

instead gonna link you an unrelated video and then split, one million percent 💀

 

Edited February 15 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Balsa.3951]

when attack from stealh one get revealed even if the attack missed was doged or blocked.

being in stealh should add 5 stacks vunability

can't crit while in stealth.

movement speed decreased by 5% while in stealh.

risk vs reward for stealh

[Shagie.7612]

2 hours ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

Go play a thief yourself in ranked pvp and post your win/loss over 20 matches. We’ll take you seriously depending on how that turns out. I’ll wait.

bold of you to assume burnfall both plays the game and has any sort of attachment to objective reality

anyways actual on topic:
you could do minor stuff like reveal on block/evade, but i don't think it's stealth so much as thief's inability to be punished unless they REALLY screw up, plus mobility, plus a little bit of stealth, and the speed at which you can neutralize points

means the class can't really have anything or else it becomes game defining, which is exactly what it was for so many years in higher level play, thief decided the match

Edited February 16 by Shagie.7612

[Eddbopkins.2630]

On 9/17/2023 at 4:45 PM, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Naw it's not time, more like it's time for u all to accept stealth is what it is and move on or get gud. Stealth a part of combat mechanics in every mmo, rpgs and the like and gw2 is among the most fair. Quit whining and learn to play.

I do not think gw has it in any fair way. If a class goes stealth and fails it's stealth attack does it get any disadvantage? NO. If a class is in stealth does it have its movement speed reduced or damage? NO. 

How many classes have access to reveal to have a fair chance of counter play? almost none. 

Stealth has no disadvantage making it very unfair to play against.

 

Many games that have stealth that I play make it so you can't attack while you are invisible. Gw is not fair with their stealth at all.

Edited February 16 by Eddbopkins.2630