I just had the most uncomfortable experience in GW2 since game launch

[Bladestrom.6425]

On 8/30/2023 at 6:32 AM, Linken.6345 said:

You said people should get banned for dps shaming well they just wont tell you why they kicked you then no ban and your not the wiser for it.

lol brilliant example of the the toxic mindset damage meters may empower for those that are willing to treat other people like this ^^

I was playing eldritch horror the board game with a group of friends a while back and one if them was really bad and probably cost us the win after an hour playing, I should have kicked him out of my house right?!

Edited September 1, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

lol brilliant example of the the toxic mindset damage meters may empower for those that are willing to treat other people like this ^^

I was playing eldritch horror the board game with a group of friends a while back and one if them was really bad and probably cost us the win after an hour playing, I should have kicked him out of my house right?!

It is your decision, the same way it is people's decision who they play with. If you invited your friends over to have some fun playing whatever game without expecting them to know how to play then kicking them for not knowing what to do is stupidity.
If you make an ad in a newspaper that you want to play that game with people who know what to do, someone comes to play who has no idea how the game works then you'd be perfectly fine about kicking them out from your house.

[Bladestrom.6425]

 

1 minute ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

It is your decision, the same way it is people's decision who they play with. If you invited your friends over to have some fun playing whatever game without expecting them to know how to play then kicking them for not knowing what to do is stupidity.
If you make an ad in a newspaper that you want to play that game with people who know what to do, someone comes to play who has no idea how the game works then you'd be perfectly fine about kicking them out from your house.

Ah the old advertised group strawman that none actually disagrees with.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 minute ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

Ah the old advertised group strawman that none actually disagrees with.

You are comparing friends playing a boardgame together to complete strangers joining a group that has requirements they may or may not meet.

[Bladestrom.6425]

2 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You are comparing friends playing a boardgame together to complete strangers joining a group that has requirements they may or may not meet.

I didn't mention requirements, as I said no-one disagrees with that scenario.  

Scneario 1 : leader advertises group, players fails to meet specification - not an issue.

Scenario 2, leader  decides to kick someone because of some preconceived standard that was not an advertised requirement - rude and toxic.

Edited September 1, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Ashantara.8731]

On 8/26/2023 at 1:19 PM, Kovac.4372 said:

Today has been a bit slow getting an IBS 5 group going. Been waiting alone advertising my group for some 5 minutes. So I take another look at the tab and notice another 1/10 group for IBS 5 + DS, decide to join them.

Group starts filling up. We're in Shiverpeaks Pass. Commander asks me for my role. I'm on my soulbeast, so I say dps. Commander gets mad at me because group advertised qdps and alac. I say I joined when it was 1/10, you don't need a whole squad full of qdps alac do you? Plus this is strikes, not raids, it's a breeze. I get berated like "if everyone thought like you blablabla". I'm like whatever, didn't reply..

Strikes go fine. My damage is good. At last one, Boneskinner, I get a whisper from commander saying I shouldn't say I'm dps when my dps is lower than some alac in the group. I figure the guy is looking at some of those dps tracking mods and comparing me to a probably better player. But like, I know I'm doing good, the dude is being pedantic, and at this point very annoying considering I've done a bazillion strike runs and never had any issues. Boneskinner goes well, no problems from me, good damage, didn't down once, helped rez downed players, Boneskinner dead fast.

I enter DS, decide to whisper back to the commander - "I'm doing fine, you've got some issues friend"

Commander kicks me out of squad.

"Case and point" I send them.

Soulbeast should be doing good damage, so if - as a DPS player - you are doing less damage than supporters, you might want to go check your DPS at the training golem in the LA Aerodrome. You can't claim your damage was good when you don't have the numbers. The BS might have died fast because other players' DPS was good.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

I didn't mention requirements, as I said no-one disagrees with that scenario.  

Scneario 1 : leader advertises group, players fails to meet specification - not an issue.

Scenario 2, leader  decides to kick someone because of some preconceived standard that was not an advertised requirement - rude and toxic.

Scenario 2.1: leader kicks the DPS doing healer damage.

Scenario 2.1 is being brought up here.

[Sobx.1758]

19 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

I didn't mention requirements, as I said no-one disagrees with that scenario.  

Scneario 1 : leader advertises group, players fails to meet specification - not an issue.

Scenario 2, leader  decides to kick someone because of some preconceived standard that was not an advertised requirement - rude and toxic.

So once someone is in the group and matched the spelled out initial requirements, nobody should be kicking anyone anymore no matter what? Can someone join your group and start flaming you, after which you shouldn't kick them "because they met the requirements"? Not everything needs to be spelled out in order for the commander -or the whole group- to still have whatever standards they want. Getting informed about the reason should be enough and is not toxic or rude.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Defias.1892]

For anyone that is experiencing these kinds of issues, I recommend they make their own group or join a guild.  I come from WoW and about 7/10 times, the raid/mythic+ leader is undergeared/underperforming and looking for a carry and/or they are just plain rude or toxic. The only way to combat this is to stop running pugs and join a guild to run with guildies, OR to make your OWN group, so that you can kick all the people who get toxic over padding the DPS meters for their own egos. I only care about clearing the fight, so as long as the fight is done, I say "GJ" or "GG" and move on with my life. People that tie their self-worth to a number in-game are kitten nuts, but sadly there's just more and more of these people online nowadays.

[rawisz.6439]

6 hours ago, Defias.1892 said:

For anyone that is experiencing these kinds of issues, I recommend they make their own group or join a guild.  I come from WoW and about 7/10 times, the raid/mythic+ leader is undergeared/underperforming and looking for a carry and/or they are just plain rude or toxic. The only way to combat this is to stop running pugs and join a guild to run with guildies, OR to make your OWN group, so that you can kick all the people who get toxic over padding the DPS meters for their own egos. I only care about clearing the fight, so as long as the fight is done, I say "GJ" or "GG" and move on with my life. People that tie their self-worth to a number in-game are kitten nuts, but sadly there's just more and more of these people online nowadays.

First of all we know only one side of the story, and usually when someones use victim card he present himself in better light then it really was.

In this situation its not that he was a little underperforming, as WoW player you should know that there is huge diffrence between having less dps then other dps players and dps having lower numbers then tank or healer.

Quick reminder he wasnt kicked because low dps, he finished all 5strikes with group. He was probably kicked because of his attitude and snippy replies on top of it.

[Shikaru.7618]

On 9/1/2023 at 3:05 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

So once someone is in the group and matched the spelled out initial requirements, nobody should be kicking anyone anymore no matter what? Can someone join your group and start flaming you, after which you shouldn't kick them "because they met the requirements"? Not everything needs to be spelled out in order for the commander -or the whole group- to still have whatever standards they want. Getting informed about the reason should be enough and is not toxic or rude.

W2 lf adps/qdps, no going afk for 5.0000001 minutes between fights, no going afk for 5.0000002 minutes between fights, no going afk for 5.0000003 minutes between fights, no going afk for 5.0000004 minutes between fights, no going afk for 5.0000005 minutes between fights, no going afk for 5.0000006 minutes between fights, no going afk for 5.0000007 minutes between fights, no going afk for 5.0000008 minutes between fights, no going afk for 5.0000009 minutes between fights, afk for 5.0000010 minutes between fights is ok.

I think I hit the lfg char limit.

[Bladestrom.6425]

On 9/1/2023 at 11:05 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

So once someone is in the group and matched the spelled out initial requirements, nobody should be kicking anyone anymore no matter what? Can someone join your group and start flaming you, after which you shouldn't kick them "because they met the requirements"? Not everything needs to be spelled out in order for the commander -or the whole group- to still have whatever standards they want. Getting informed about the reason should be enough and is not toxic or rude.

another strawman, no-one said you could not kick someone who is behaving badly.

[Bladestrom.6425]

On 9/1/2023 at 9:15 PM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Scenario 2.1: leader kicks the DPS doing healer damage.

Scenario 2.1 is being brought up here.

Exactly.

For those throwing strawman about, the sole issue is where a player tries to kick another player who met the given entry requirements, and are well behaved.

- Player does not meet given entry  requirements where they are specified  - kick if you must.

- Player is badly behaved - kick. 

- Player meets entry requirements ands is well behaved.  Try to kick?  don't be so anti social and get into the spirit of the game as it was intended to be played..

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

another strawman, no-one said you could not kick someone who is behaving badly.

Why is kicking someone for behaving badly ok, but kicking someone for slacking isn't? Because you arbitrarily decided so?
It wasn't some attempt at making a strawman, it was an attempt to present that you think kicking for whatever you think is appropriate to kick for is ok, but someone else kicking by whatever they think is appropriate to kick for is not basically because you said so.

And btw, this is what you wrote:

On 9/1/2023 at 8:48 PM, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Scenario 2, leader  decides to kick someone because of some preconceived standard that was not an advertised requirement - rude and toxic.

It wasn't mentioned as a requirements, so they shouldn't be kicked for it. Which is exactly what I'm talking about in my post.

 

3 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Exactly.

For those throwing strawman about, the sole issue is where a player tries to kick another player who met the given entry requirements, and are well behaved.

- Player does not meet given entry  requirements where they are specified  - kick if you must.

- Player is badly behaved - kick. 

- Player meets entry requirements ands is well behaved.  Try to kick?  don't be so anti social and get into the spirit of the game as it was intended to be played..

So you understand that when the requirement is filling a "dps" role but a player deals dmg comparable to a healer, it means... they did not meet the requirement of playing a dps role, right? (and OP still wasn't kicked for dps btw)

Edited September 3, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Bladestrom.6425]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Why is kicking someone for behaving badly ok, but kicking someone for slacking isn't? Because you arbitrarily decided so?
It wasn't some attempt at making a strawman, it was an attempt to present that you think kicking for whatever you think is appropriate to kick for is ok, but someone else kicking by whatever they think is appropriate to kick for is not basically because you said so.

And btw, this is what you wrote:

It wasn't mentioned as a requirements, so they shouldn't be kicked for it. Which is exactly what I'm talking about in my post.

 

So you understand that when the requirement is filling a "dps" role but a player deals dmg comparable to a healer, it means... they did not meet the requirement of playing a dps role, right? (and OP still wasn't kicked for dps btw)

'slacking' is a toxic position to take, its right out of the WOW book of nastiness.  what is reasonable for a dps role in 99% of content in this game is easily less than 50% of optimal dps.  Thats how GW2 was designed.  Look at open open world meta, the world bosses go down easily and there is zero toxicity.

Now if you advertise 'I expect xx DPs' then you have specified your entry requirements, but anything else is in fact toxic.

[Sobx.1758]

On 9/3/2023 at 7:04 PM, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

'slacking' is a toxic position to take, its right out of the WOW book of nastiness.  what is reasonable for a dps role in 99% of content in this game is easily less than 50% of optimal dps.  Thats how GW2 was designed.  Look at open open world meta, the world bosses go down easily and there is zero toxicity.

I know you don't need anywhere near optimal dps and if you look in the past threads about raids and what certain people on this forum apparently though they needed, you'd notice that this is what I was pointing out for quite some time. Except that mentioned examples were about being near/at healer numbers, not any "optimal dps" values.

And no, nothing toxic about that. Not only that, but due to no inherent ingame dps meters, some players may simply not know how they're doing and what they can improve. Simply mentioning low numbers isn't inherently toxic nor it has inherently some mean connotations. It basically all depends how and why things like that are being mentioned. I'd 100% rather be told that "sr, your dps is too low, thanks for joining, bye" (or w/e) than being kicked and having no idea why.
wow has nothing to do with it either.

 

On 9/3/2023 at 7:04 PM, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Now if you advertise 'I expect xx DPs' then you have specified your entry requirements, but anything else is in fact toxic.

Nope, if ""dps"" player has healer numbers without healer's utility then the requirements mentioned in the group's descriptions were pretty clearly not fulfilled. (and even if that player has healer's utility, it's still clearly a mismatch for the role that was asked for btw)

Edited September 5, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[rawisz.6439]

5 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Exactly.

For those throwing strawman about, the sole issue is where a player tries to kick another player who met the given entry requirements, and are well behaved.

- Player does not meet given entry  requirements where they are specified  - kick if you must.

- Player is badly behaved - kick. 

- Player meets entry requirements ands is well behaved.  Try to kick?  don't be so anti social and get into the spirit of the game as it was intended to be played..

There is no such thing like "get into the spirit of the game as it was intended to be played". Its MMO game it means there are diffrent groups with diffrent expectations. Why it bothers you that there is place in game for groups like "welcome everyone" and at the same time for more advanced groups for whom perfomance matters? Why do you think its toxic that ppl who put some effort to practice want to group with other ppl at similar skill level?

 

29 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

'slacking' is a toxic position to take, its right out of the WOW book of nastiness.  what is reasonable for a dps role in 99% of content in this game is easily less than 50% of optimal dps.  Thats how GW2 was designed.  Look at open open world meta, the world bosses go down easily and there is zero toxicity.

If you think that dps doesnt matter then join some Public Strikes and share your experience with us. How it is that suddenly its problem to kill easy boss.

In open world bosses you have 20% ppl who hit boss 1 and go afk for rest of fight leaching on effort of other ppl. Fortunatly its not the case in instanced content.

[Bladestrom.6425]

On 9/3/2023 at 6:42 PM, rawisz.6439 said:

There is no such thing like "get into the spirit of the game as it was intended to be played". Its MMO game it means there are diffrent groups with diffrent expectations. Why it bothers you that there is place in game for groups like "welcome everyone" and at the same time for more advanced groups for whom perfomance matters? Why do you think its toxic that ppl who put some effort to practice want to group with other ppl at similar skill level?

I agree, and that's why you advertise your requirements, you didn't read my post.

If you think that dps doesnt matter then join some Public Strikes and share your experience with us. How it is that suddenly its problem to kill easy boss.

In open world bosses you have 20% ppl who hit boss 1 and go afk for rest of fight leaching on effort of other ppl. Fortunatly its not the case in instanced content.

i said in 99% of content you can easily complete it with far from optimal dps, which is true.  Ive played since beta, I avoid raids and have pugged pretty much all pve content that the game has to offer, i've seen maybe 2 strikes fail and 1 or 2 meta.  People leaching falls under the category of not well behaved which ive already said is kickworthy.

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Zohane.7208]

10 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

i said in 99% of content you can easily complete it with far from optimal dps, which is true.  Ive played since beta, I avoid raids and have pugged pretty much all pve content that the game has to offer, i've seen maybe 2 strikes fail and 1 or 2 meta.  People leaching falls under the category of not well behaved which ive already said is kickworthy.

So then all we need to do is to expand the definition of leeching to include "vastly subpar role performance" and then it's ok to kick them for it? I know that I, personally, consider it this way already. It doesn't matter if you're a boonheal, boondps, or pure dps - if you do it really really really bad, then it's comparable to leeching...

[Sobx.1758]

18 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

People leaching falls under the category of not well behaved which ive already said is kickworthy.

So... saying someone's "slacking' is toxic and not kickworthy. Saying someone's "leeching" is ok and is kickworthy. I'm not sure what rules you're following in what you're writing in this thread.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Bladestrom.6425]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So... saying someone's "slacking' is toxic and not kickworthy. Saying someone's "leeching" is ok and is kickworthy. I'm not sure what rules you're following in what you're writing in this thread.

Its pointless debating something if you are going to skim and not read properly.    If there is requirements that they fail to meet or they are badly behaved then kick away.  if  someone satisfies the requirements and are not badly behaved then kicking is toxic.  Simply put, be respectful to people and don't shift the goal posts.

Anyway this debate turns into an 'get gid' chat which goes nowhere so dropping out. cheers.

[Zohane.7208]

13 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Its pointless debating something if you are going to skim and not read properly.    If there is requirements that they fail to meet or they are badly behaved then kick away.  if  someone satisfies the requirements and are not badly behaved then kicking is toxic.  Simply put, be respectful to people and don't shift the goal posts.

Anyway this debate turns into an 'get gid' chat which goes nowhere so dropping out. cheers.

There are a number of requirements that are implicit in the role definition; for example a quickheal is supposed to generate a lot of boons, not just quickness. I'm pretty sure that if I were to come into a team as quickheal and ONLY give out health and quickness I would be removed from the group very fast. The requirement to provide might, fury, protection, aegis are not listed in any lfg and still they are requirements.

Same goes for a dps; there is an implicit requirement to deal a "reasonable" amount of damage. Dealing 1 health point of damage per second is, technically, dps - but I'm pretty sure no one would accept this. In general the implicit requirement for a dps is probably somewhere around 40-50% of benchmark in sustained dps. Maybe even lower since you almost never fight under ideal circumstances.

 

So, there are a lot of requirements that are never listed in the lfg and still they are there, and people who don't fulfill these implicit requirements don't really fulfill their role, thus making it reasonable for the commander to remove them.

[Sobx.1758]

29 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Its pointless debating something if you are going to skim and not read properly.    If there is requirements that they fail to meet or they are badly behaved then kick away.  if  someone satisfies the requirements and are not badly behaved then kicking is toxic.  Simply put, be respectful to people and don't shift the goal posts.

I'm not the one "skimming and not reading properly" here, it was explained to you why the dps role's requirements were not fulfilled in this case. And this case is what you're arguing against, calling it toxic or whatever it was.
You also didn't respond to what you've quoted, it's almost as if you're making up your own rules as you go, so somehow calling people "leechers" is k, but saying someone's "slacking' is a terrible offense. Still unclear what logic you're using while deciding that.

29 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Anyway this debate turns into an 'get gid' chat

I don't know where you got that from, but it doesn't.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Cuks.8241]

This topic was not even about kicked because low dps but being called out because being a douchebag.

I never kicked anyone because he had low dps if we were able to clear. In gw2 this is not really a problem (I dont really lead hard encounters in gw2 anyway). In wow it could be a problem and I never really kicked without prior chance at meeting dps and explanation.

I kicked plenty douchebags though. Even ones that perfomed well. Remmember kicking a great healer from ICC because he was calling out others on performance when we were clearing and it was a pug raid, not a fast clear. Healers were hard to come by.

Dont be a kitten, be polite and you will come far even if youre not the best performer. Most players in gw2 are very willing to help and even carry if youre nice. Ive cleared w4 recently with a pug training group where tank had to get more toughness because a few dps had so much toughness gear. First we needed to explain where thay can see their toughness 😂 We cleared with a few hiccups. Only on Deimos we asked one player to just stay dead because he just couldn stay out of oil.

[Zohane.7208]

2 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

This topic was not even about kicked because low dps but being called out because being a douchebag.

I never kicked anyone because he had low dps if we were able to clear. In gw2 this is not really a problem (I dont really lead hard encounters in gw2 anyway). In wow it could be a problem and I never really kicked without prior chance at meeting dps and explanation.

I kicked plenty douchebags though. Even ones that perfomed well. Remmember kicking a great healer from ICC because he was calling out others on performance when we were clearing and it was a pug raid, not a fast clear. Healers were hard to come by.

Dont be a kitten, be polite and you will come far even if youre not the best performer. Most players in gw2 are very willing to help and even carry if youre nice. Ive cleared w4 recently with a pug training group where tank had to get more toughness because a few dps had so much toughness gear. First we needed to explain where thay can see their toughness 😂 We cleared with a few hiccups. Only on Deimos we asked one player to just stay dead because he just couldn stay out of oil.

Well, it's in part about low dps - apparently OP had less dps than an alac, and that's one of the things that got the eye of the commander. (Had they done "good enough" dps it's likely that this situation wouldn't have appeared.)

But for the rest I agree 100% with your post.