2 Improvements for WvW to make the battles more Dynamic and Interesting

[KingHeaven.4590]

Hi Arena Net,

First of all thanks for making WvW, it's the best multiplayer game mode of any MMO out there.  I've been playing GW 2 since GW 1 and still have fun memories of Hall of Heroes battles.  I haven't played any other MMOs that have quite made a large scale multiplayer 50 v 50 v 50 mode that is as fun as this one.

I recently read a post talking about how WvW might be more fun if people were incentivized to split up into smaller teams rather than always battle in one huge blob.  It would be interesting if there was a bit more strategy involved that required better team cooperation and team play to achieve objectives.  So it got me thinking about the things I would like to be updated and improved in the game mode. 

First of all, I think the main core keeps of each map, like your home borderlands Main Core Keep and the EBG Main Core Keep of each team, should be MUCH more difficult to take.  Like they should be near impossible to take.  I think that accomplishing taking one of those keeps should be something that maybe happens like once a month and is a monumental feat.  Basically I think players should be much safer in their Main Core Keeps and it should represent a great challenge to servers or teams that actually want to accomplish this.

1.  My proposal is that the Main Core Keep of each map is changed so that the walls and gates are now unbreakable.  They can no longer be destroyed by siege weapons or any weapons at all.  However, there will be a new mechanic put into each map that allows for opening up the Main Core Keep for a limited amount of time, say 5 minutes the gates will open.  The way you open the gates is that there will be three capture points placed around the map in various places, and each capture point must be captured by a team of at least 10 players.  In essence you will have to coordinate with your team to divide your forces into 3 teams of at least 10 each, probably each having a separate commander.  And each capture point must be held simultaneously for a certain amount of time, say 30 seconds.  Then the magic gates of the Core Keep will open for 5 minutes before they automatically close again.

Now this will be very difficult to accomplish because it requires a large number of players, at least 30+ and they have to work in coordination with each other.  Also the defending team only has to defend ONE objective to successfully stop them from opening the gates, since all 3 are needed to be captured simultaneously to open the Core Keeps.  However, I think it would make for some interesting and dynamic game play as teams try to devise strategies to accomplish this goal.   

 

2.  Secondly - I really like siege weapons and siege battles.  They are very fun and I'd like to see larger scale siege warfare.  As I stated earlier, I like the idea of keeps, towers and defending structures to be much more difficult to capture.  It's very fun to see people come up with new strategies on where to place trebs, catapults, ballista's and players figuring out counter positions on the best places to put siege weapons.  With this being the case I would prefer that siege weapons lasted for an entire day instead of one hour.  They would be unable to be refreshed, however, once you build a siege weapon it will last 24 hours unless it is destroyed - without the ability to refresh them.  I can imagine some pretty large siege battles happening along with some large 50 v 50 golem battles occurring which would be totally awesome to see.

The siege weapons would need to be updated so they could not be placed in certain areas that they can currently be placed in.  For example making it so no siege weapons can be built on top of or around tactivators, no siege in front of supply or blocking any doorways or blocking anything else.  We don't have any problems with that now but I could see potential issues with trolls, spies or saboteurs using long term siege weapons in an annoying or harassing way.  I suppose you'd just have to let players try out the 24/7 siege weapons for a month or so and see what or if any problems happen.  Once people start reporting problems then they would just need to be fixed.   

    Glad to hear any others ideas on how to improve WvW and make the gameplay more strategic and dynamic.  Also of course any ideas to get more new players to join.  Perhaps the first keep capture of each day grants a reward of 5 gold.  Players are always looking for a reliable way to make gold and it would draw in casual players from time to time as an alternative to the Silverwastes which is a popular gold farm.

    Cheers,

 

[Widebody.5071]

I believe that getting rid of boonballs, lowering aoe radius and duration on the ground, make stealth less invisible and more shadowy along with bringing stab back to its full strength will do wonders in providing a more dynamic, fluid and interesting battle ground. Not bashing any classes it's just that when there's an avenue for the melee players to engage there's more action in the game instead of two or more opponents pirate shipping each other and going in circles trying to out maneuver each other for 20 minutes.

From what I read that is what most of the wvw player base desire. Time to get back to basics.

[joneirikb.7506]

(Half jokingly) Just bring back core, before 2015/03/16 Stability change, and before 2015/06/13 hot build change.

I know it wasn't perfect, but heck, every single time they've added something to the game, even HOT and all the elites, stats, runes/sigils, food etc. I keep just missing back.

(They'd still have to do something about WR/A and population as a whole, or I guess they could just jam entire WvW into EotM system and ignore it)

[Dawdler.8521]

On 8/28/2023 at 11:43 AM, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

I recently read a post talking about how WvW might be more fun if people were incentivized to split up into smaller teams rather than always battle in one huge blob.

Not sure how this mesh with all ideas suggesting a zoneblob should be required to even touch objectives, so I can only assume this is a joke? 🤔

The split cap in particular is hilarious with that design. It would mean that attackers can only win with 60+ vs 20 while defenders are encouraged to go 60+ vs 20.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Nikola.3841]

There is even video of how to implement those ideas
 

 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

On 8/28/2023 at 6:43 AM, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

Hi Arena Net,

First of all thanks for making WvW, it's the best multiplayer game mode of any MMO out there.  I've been playing GW 2 since GW 1 and still have fun memories of Hall of Heroes battles.  I haven't played any other MMOs that have quite made a large scale multiplayer 50 v 50 v 50 mode that is as fun as this one.

I recently read a post talking about how WvW might be more fun if people were incentivized to split up into smaller teams rather than always battle in one huge blob.  It would be interesting if there was a bit more strategy involved that required better team cooperation and team play to achieve objectives.  So it got me thinking about the things I would like to be updated and improved in the game mode. 

First of all, I think the main core keeps of each map, like your home borderlands Main Core Keep and the EBG Main Core Keep of each team, should be MUCH more difficult to take.  Like they should be near impossible to take.  I think that accomplishing taking one of those keeps should be something that maybe happens like once a month and is a monumental feat.  Basically I think players should be much safer in their Main Core Keeps and it should represent a great challenge to servers or teams that actually want to accomplish this.

1.  My proposal is that the Main Core Keep of each map is changed so that the walls and gates are now unbreakable.  They can no longer be destroyed by siege weapons or any weapons at all.  However, there will be a new mechanic put into each map that allows for opening up the Main Core Keep for a limited amount of time, say 5 minutes the gates will open.  The way you open the gates is that there will be three capture points placed around the map in various places, and each capture point must be captured by a team of at least 10 players.  In essence you will have to coordinate with your team to divide your forces into 3 teams of at least 10 each, probably each having a separate commander.  And each capture point must be held simultaneously for a certain amount of time, say 30 seconds.  Then the magic gates of the Core Keep will open for 5 minutes before they automatically close again.

Now this will be very difficult to accomplish because it requires a large number of players, at least 30+ and they have to work in coordination with each other.  Also the defending team only has to defend ONE objective to successfully stop them from opening the gates, since all 3 are needed to be captured simultaneously to open the Core Keeps.  However, I think it would make for some interesting and dynamic game play as teams try to devise strategies to accomplish this goal.   

 

Im admittingly too lazy to look if someoines stated this, however DBL had a capture event th at helped with removing certain barriers and was scrapped as majority didnt like it. That said I can see this having a similar fate.

[kash.9213]

How much fun do you have when you volunteer to get Bloodlust? Now scale that up and camp the same few spots every day before getting funneled into that bottleneck because you can't cloud or maneuver, if you even get there in time if you were one of the teams at the capture points. 

This isn't the core world or open world pvp. There's nothing to do anywhere on the maps but vibe with team combat mechanics. On that note dismantling aspects of classes to give some players handicaps isn't going to spread people around either. 

 

[KingHeaven.4590]

Understandable, I'm sure there will be some people who will like and dislike the changes.  There will always be people who want things to stay the same while others want improvements and versatility.  I will add that once you capture a Core Keep - the team will NO LONGER be able to keep it.  They will simply be teleported out back to their base, the gates closed and they will get a huge bonus to war score.  say +500 points or something like that.

Does anyone here play any FF14?  I will certainly say the boss fights in FF14 are WAY more interesting then any other games because they create these mechanics where you have to figure out the mechanics and work as a team to solve them in order to win.  It's not just brute forcing your way in, there is a mechanical aspect to the way things work which I think adds a layer of strategy.

Basically overall, I would like them to add some kind of mechanic that makes WvW more strategic and require splitting up of teams into 2,3,4 groups with multiple commanders to achieve objectives because I think it would be more fun that way and make people think a bit more.

[kash.9213]

37 minutes ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

Understandable, I'm sure there will be some people who will like and dislike the changes.  There will always be people who want things to stay the same while others want improvements and versatility.  I will add that once you capture a Core Keep - the team will NO LONGER be able to keep it.  They will simply be teleported out back to their base, the gates closed and they will get a huge bonus to war score.  say +500 points or something like that.

Does anyone here play any FF14?  I will certainly say the boss fights in FF14 are WAY more interesting then any other games because they create these mechanics where you have to figure out the mechanics and work as a team to solve them in order to win.  It's not just brute forcing your way in, there is a mechanical aspect to the way things work which I think adds a layer of strategy.

Basically overall, I would like them to add some kind of mechanic that makes WvW more strategic and require splitting up of teams into 2,3,4 groups with multiple commanders to achieve objectives because I think it would be more fun that way and make people think a bit more.

You're misrepresenting people. I'm not against change and I want things to improve. I also don't want that idea from the OP in current World vs World maps.

 

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

I would like it to be like Aika online, in there the main structure would generate gold over time, and if your team captured it from an enemy, everyone that participated would get a share, they could do the same here.

Every team would have a "Main Keep" on their Borderland, and they would be very hard to capture, Main Keep is always at Tier 3, at the same time way stronger than it is now, and you still need to capture it the "old fashioned way", going there and sieging it.

Main keep accumulates gold and other drops as time went on (maybe each Skirmish), and at the end of the week (5 or more hours before reset), the Keep Vault will open and players can enter it and loot lot's of chests with items, gold, etc, at this point the enemy team can't try to capture it anymore, walls are unbreakable and there's Legendary Defenders, until reset happens and all goes back to normal again.
But, at any time during the week, the enemy team can try and atack the main keep to steal it's riches for themselves, it's the same as it is now, break outer, break inner, kill super strong lord, but you don't capture the keep anymore, after filling the bar, the Keep's Vault will open for 5 minutes, and atackers can loot it (atacking team will be safe inside the Keep/Vault while the timer is running), same deal, lot's of chests with items, some gold, etc, depending on how much the enemy team accumulated, after this timer end's, the Vault will close, and atacking team will need to leave, because Legendary Defenders will spawn and defend the keep until next Skirmish (after which they get demoted to normal guards again), this is mostly to prevent people from trolling, camping, porting inside, etc.

The alternative is the same as above, but you can still capture enemy Main Keeps, and they generate rewards just like yours, but the Vault only open at the end of the week, so the server with multiple Main Keeps would have to try and hold them for the entire week to double/triple the rewards, that would be super hard, maybe impossible to some, but the payoff at the end would be more than worth it.

Main problem with this is that matchups would need to become 1x1, or 2x2, because as it is now, it would be super easy for the two stronger teams to wait till the end of the week and just gang up on the weak team for some easy double rewards. Perhaps Score could have a say in how much rewards you accumulate, or gives some bonuses, as this could incentivize the weaker teams to try and gang-up on the stronger instead.

Another problem is coverage, since servers, guilds, teams, etc have different timezones, this could lead to some problems, but that's why when i say Main Keeps would be super hard to capture i mean it, even a few defenders would give a lot of trouble to a full squad, all guards will be Elite, there will be more Champions, more siege, busted defensive tatics, etc.

Phew, what a wall of text lol.

[Widebody.5071]

Hate to say it but I believe one of the problems in WVW is that it's turned into gold and loot rush the fun factor has been replaced with inventory accumulation. That's one reason why melee is frowned on in wvw that can't tag like ranged and casters can they're usually using point attacks or have very small aoe coverage which brings up the ppt debate.

Defence was ruined due to folks complaining about defenders not pitching into the fight but once the most defenders left very few people step in to help support with siege instead just trying to fight their way clear of an attack. At the beginning of the game that was possible but not now. All the heavy hitters has been neutered, aoe coverage wraps around walls, condi damage is off the charts, siege has been neutered along with the structures...... get my point?

Now we have a new meta with 2 servers lurking on opposite sides of smc waiting on the 3rd server to rush in so they can get caught in the crossfire. Anet's blame in all of this is going along with all the crazy ideas people keep suggesting. Just one thing after another with none of it making sense. We play GW2 in order to experience something different yet nearly every week someone is pushing to make it like a game they played in the past.

Now after all the changes and nerfs more nerfs are being asked for, give them an inch they'll take a mile. They never learn wvw has gotten to the point where they're fighting themselves or standing around just waiting for something to happen but yet so many refuse to participate in the other game modes. Just want stuff handed to them with no effort whatsoever. Streaming content is so low they now show streams from other games, who would've guessed.

                                                     

[Dawdler.8521]

14 hours ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

Im admittingly too lazy to look if someoines stated this, however DBL had a capture event th at helped with removing certain barriers and was scrapped as majority didnt like it. That said I can see this having a similar fate.

The cannon was scrapped because it was breaking the instance and caused heavy lag but also because its imaginary purpose was to be better for smaller groups but in reality just caused zergs to come in under the outmanned timer, finish the event in 1s because it was hilarously abusable for large groups and then reset everything before they buggered off and a defending zerg had time to respond. 

The barriers was the same. Something that at a glance improved defense for smaller groups and encouraged smaller enemy groups to slip by but in reality was just annoying for everyone while zergs laughed and downed them in the time it took to run from 1200 to melee range. Imagine if you had to take down a ram before going through any portal and it was pretty much that.

You may notice a trend of intent for smallscale vs actual end result zerging here.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

16 hours ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

Im admittingly too lazy to look if someoines stated this, however DBL had a capture event th at helped with removing certain barriers and was scrapped as majority didnt like it. That said I can see this having a similar fate.

It wasn't removed because people didn't like it. 

It was removed because it made the game unplayable. The event lagged the server into high heaven. Even without people around. 

Add 3 zergs being forced into a tiny area at a time when the sever could not handle 20 v 20 fights and the server could be used for a BBQ. 

[Nikola.3841]

I often mention DAOC in threads like this because from day 1 RvR (their version of WvW) goal is clear, same as

benefits and shortcomings of stealing enemy relic.

Each of 3 sides had 1 melee and 1 caster relic, that would increase your side melee or caster  damage by 10% (both in PVE and PVP)

However, the more relics you had, the harder it got to keep them...you had to defend more relic keeps, and your guards would become

easier to kill and generally weaker.

Also, your relics were held in astonishingly hard relic keeps, while enemy relics were kept in much weaker ordinary keeps.

Also, I liked how mythic handled things...my side once built 20 rams (SOS style) and took relic very fast, next day Mythic

put cap on that allowing only 3 rams (operating and making rams was much harder than in GW2)

Edited August 30, 2023 by Nikola.3841

[KingHeaven.4590]

11 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

It wasn't removed because people didn't like it. 

It was removed because it made the game unplayable. The event lagged the server into high heaven. Even without people around. 

Add 3 zergs being forced into a tiny area at a time when the sever could not handle 20 v 20 fights and the server could be used for a BBQ. 

I'm not sure what server you're on but we regularly have huge battles with maxed out all 3 zergs fighting for SMC in the Lord room.  Mags vs. BG vs. Anyone else.  The game runs fine if you have good internet.  It's mostly the FPS but I just set it to 30 FPS and I have a good graphics card so it works fine.  Definitely not a problem with a good computer and good internet.

[joneirikb.7506]

2 hours ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

I'm not sure what server you're on but we regularly have huge battles with maxed out all 3 zergs fighting for SMC in the Lord room.  Mags vs. BG vs. Anyone else.  The game runs fine if you have good internet.  It's mostly the FPS but I just set it to 30 FPS and I have a good graphics card so it works fine.  Definitely not a problem with a good computer and good internet.

They're talking about how DesertBL was when released in 2015. It had a map mechanic where you did an event in the middle of the map, and it nuked most objective doors quite a good bit. This even has later been removed. And the reason for that is that it did indeed lag the entire server, so it didn't matter what CPU/GPU you had, because the server was lagging.

What you're talking about is low FPS due to low hardware. That is different from LAG. There's also two different types of LAG, client lag (typically distance or problems with the clients ISP), or server lag when too many things happens at the same time, or there is some kind of PROBLEM with the game (Like it was with the Original event in DesertBL).

[Riba.3271]

Sieging needs following changes:

Objectives and siege

• T2 and T3 Walls and Gates have 20% more health
• Golems unaffected by boons again. Golem hitpoints increased by 20%. Guild golems cost 80 supply instead of 50.
• Placable siege (Golems, Arrow Carts, Ballistas and Trebutchets) deal 40% more damage to siege weapons
• Multiple shield generators cannot be placed near each other, and their 3 skill occurs around the shield generators rather than being ground-targeted
• Burning Oil mastery damage reduction to oil lowered
• Lord hitpoints scale based on players in combat with it rather than all nearby enemies

Upgrading and supply

• Keeps require 25% more dolyaks to upgrade. Castles 100% more. Packed dolyaks do not count double for upgrade anymore but carry 3 times more supply instead of 2.
• Keeps and Towers below Tier 3 receive 10 less supply per dolyak.
• Dolyak damage and condition duration reduction from nearby allied player reduced from 90% to 66%

Tactics and Improvements slottables

• Iron Guards and Hardened Siege Improvements damage reduction lowered from 50% to 33%
• Airship Defence tactics duration reduced from 120 seconds to 90 seconds. Damage from each strike lowered by 20%.
• Banner tactics duration reduced from 15 minutes to 5 minutes
• Watchtower improvement is only active when objective is contested
• Armored Dolyaks Improvement also reduces Dolyak respawn time to half after being slain.

Combat improvements

• Objective Aura stats reduced from +400 total stats to +120 total stats. Movement speed lowered from 25% to 10%
• Gliding cannot be initiated in combat anymore

I am happy to type out reasoning for each change if you cannot figure it out. Lot of it has to do allowing smaller groups or solo players having better time. Or equally sized groups having longer sieges but also better time

Edited August 30, 2023 by Riba.3271