Things that actually need nerfs.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Untamed. Chrono. Vindicator.

only reason why they havent been nerfed to hell is cause most people suck at them.

[Sereath.1428]

1 hour ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

only reason why they havent been nerfed to hell is cause most people suck at them.

Bruh
Isn't the point of having more complex builds that they should be more rewarding than simpler ones? 💀
These forums are really something.
Still fantasizing with the idea of reaching some imaginary state of balance where everything is equally rewarding, equally difficult/easy, equally represented, and all that without somehow homogenizing everything to death and making the game even more boring for most people.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Shagie.7612]

55 minutes ago, Sereath.1428 said:

Isn't the point of having more complex builds that they should be more rewarding than simpler ones? 💀

"play x past a certain skill level because it's objectively better" isn't any better

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 hour ago, Sereath.1428 said:

Isn't the point of having more complex builds that they should be more rewarding than simpler ones?

Ok then lets buff cata and holo again.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Untamed. Chrono. Vindicator.

only reason why they havent been nerfed to hell is cause most people suck at them.

Pretty sure Boyce was using Untamed in AT's when teleburst was still around.  Since that got nerfed, Untamed isn't viable unless you are getting farmed by someone using a smurf to get into silver games.  

[Myror.7521]

@Sereath.1428 been more rewarded? Yes But there is a difference between get more rewarded and been actually better at something. I think in the end if every class is as good as the others its good balanced. Now you could say "but a warr need to be less rewarding than an ele". Actually the class IS more rewarding in Terms of been able to gain realy long duration superspeed. Been able to do ranged dps and melee dps.  While also gain teleports, invuln and stuff. While warr is just melee with endurepain and Blocks plus lower boons that you can gain to yourself. So in terms of difficulty need to be more rewarding it actually is like that allready ^^

[Sandzibar.5134]

6 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Untamed. Chrono. Vindicator.

Didnt untamed just get nerfed in the last patch? whats the problem now OP?

[ArthurDent.9538]

This man on a solo crusade against vindi for unknown reasons but has several threads documenting his persistence.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

2 hours ago, Sandzibar.5134 said:

Didnt untamed just get nerfed in the last patch? whats the problem now OP?

You talking about the single coefficient change to mainhand sword, or the pve patch?

[Sandzibar.5134]

13 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

You talking about the single coefficient change to mainhand sword, or the pve patch?

Untamed

• Neurotoxin Burst: Reduced the bleeding and poison stacks from 3 to 2 and the duration of each from 8 seconds to 6 seconds in PvP only.
• Solar Brilliance: Reduced the base heal per pulse from 298 to 170 in PvP only.

Nerf to condi untamed, but whats the context of your issue?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

Bruh
Isn't the point of having more complex builds that they should be more rewarding than simpler ones? 💀

Depends on what you mean by "more rewarding."

More complex builds should be more flexible than other builds for different situations, but "I learned a complicated rotation" should never be the foundation for explaining why your build outperforms one that has less buttons available to press.

Complex classes are for unique skill expression that people may have a hard time adapting to, not a justification for steamrolling. Not implying anyone is justifying steamrolling, but just in case some people have it in mind...

[Mount Mazama.2917]

As a low skill player (S3/G1) I will say that Untamed is much easier for me to play than chrono and vindi while having more sustain, allowing for a large amount of damage and easy access to mobility. I have even made my own Untamed builds that I win games on, almost every other class when I make my own builds they are completely awful and end in several terrible games. I think the class is pretty easy, hammer goes crazy. Most chronos I see in my games are not that good, most vindis I see are not that good. I only think classes should be toned down when a low tier player player can pick them up and start demolishing players of similar skill regularly. Just my opinion. In my experience forest fort and sword 2+3 allow you to be in a terrible situation that would surely get you rolled like oats on the other two classes stated here and just get out for free. Unlike a thief the high mobility comes with the ability to eat some hits as well. I don't think the intention is for some classes to have the ability to tank damage, deal good damage, and then also have access to wild mobility. In my experience on the other classes you generally get two out of three best case scenario. If you have good damage and mobility you are squishy. If you have sustain and mobile you do not deal that much damage. If you have sustain and deal solid damage you don't have much in the ways of mobility. If a class were to have access to all three I think it should be more difficult to pull off than untamed. I could be missing something though maybe other classes have the same access to sustain, damage and mobility in one build and are easy enough to pull off for a less experienced player.

As someone who has experience playing at the top 10% of other games ladders (Halo 3, CS, OW, Apex) I don't think very difficult to execute classes especially ones that rely on team work to shine should be nerfed because people that got to their rank relying on "cheesier" strategies don't know how to deal with it. I don't really know enough about how chrono and vindi perform in upper levels or how team reliant they are., I do know I struggle to just pick up and play them and people in my games rarely do amazing on them unlike Untamed. Untamed seems to just work fairly well regardless of team coordination and requiring a low skill floor due to the low risk of have forest fortification and the sword movement, if you opt to run S/W and GS then you have even more movement but in my experience less damage than hammer and still maintains solid damage capabilities not to mention CCs on the pet while you are running away.  It just seems kinda wild how much it has access to with minimal risk.

If I am very wrong about something I would appreciate a well articulated response pointing out what I am lacking an understanding of so I can learn.

[Khalisto.5780]

I gotta agree with that, i was trying chrono before soulbeast became a thing, chrono sustained dps os way higher and it has more team utility

[Teknomancer.4895]

18 minutes ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

I gotta agree with that, i was trying chrono before soulbeast became a thing, chrono sustained dps os way higher and it has more team utility

Just don't sneeze in a Mesmer's general direction or you'll down them.

[Eddie.9143]

if you nerfed those 3 without touching condi zerker, bladesworn, or reaper, they will easily be OP

[Sereath.1428]

6 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Depends on what you mean by "more rewarding."

More complex builds should be more flexible than other builds for different situations, but "I learned a complicated rotation" should never be the foundation for explaining why your build outperforms one that has less buttons available to press.

Complex classes are for unique skill expression that people may have a hard time adapting to, not a justification for steamrolling. Not implying anyone is justifying steamrolling, but just in case some people have it in mind...

For sure.

But none of those are invading ranked and steamrolling the rest.
And in fact, OP clearly stated "cause most people suck at them",
so do they want to balance the whole game around the one or two good players that "steamrolled" them?
This was obviously another resentful post, and not the first they had written. There are a lot of them here.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Sereath.1428 said:

For sure.

But none of those are invading ranked and steamrolling the rest.
And in fact, OP clearly stated "cause most people suck at them",
so do they want to balance the whole game around the one or two good players that "steamrolled" them?
This was obviously another resentful post, and not the first they had written. There are a lot of them here.

/shrug

Fair enough~

[Flowki.7194]

Condi century vindi support with shortbow, mace/shield is what ive settled on, and its the best spec ive played in gw2. It has everyhing, yet the energy cost + mixed damage teams means you have to make good choices on what to mitigate against. Its harder to play than tempest, since auras meant you could cover all bases and then do other things, and thats what keeps this spec in check as far as I can tell. Yet, this is the only current support with any real potential to carry games, its strong, has no direct hard counter, but is not over powered due to energy choices, try it.. becuase the reward is actually justified by the effort, and their is a real lack of that going around. Way to much easy burst and easy sustain across the popular dps specs.

 

If they nerf this, with the level of effort it takes.. I give up on this game. Especailly with zerker and blade still running around doing their thing.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

so you think you can compete with top players on these specs, I am pretty sure they would do the same on other builds then these to you.

These specs got overtime multipble nerfs and are pretty balanced currently, it is pretty fair to fight against it now and outplay them. And if you're looking at top players like Boyce on untamed, those are a few and shouldn't be compared with because only a few can reach such lvls.

In short, don't balance to top players, even when it is balanced spec for them currently and for lower then them even more balanced

[Dickinson.7368]

19 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

Isn't the point of having more complex builds that they should be more rewarding than simpler ones? 💀

This.
I never understood the logic of people requesting face-roll builds to have the same power/reward cap as hard to play builds.

[ArthurDent.9538]

49 minutes ago, Dickinson.7368 said:

This.
I never understood the logic of people requesting face-roll builds to have the same power/reward cap as hard to play builds.

The reality is that a lot of the time the perception of what a "face-roll build" is based off of the power/reward cap. Stronger builds are generally perceived as faceroll because they are strong not because they have fewer buttons to push or some other stupid metric like that.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

9 hours ago, Dickinson.7368 said:

This.
I never understood the logic of people requesting face-roll builds to have the same power/reward cap as hard to play builds.

Because the max skill cap mechanically are overall low for gw2. I'm sry but most people minus any physical limitations can easily learn any class and any rotation in this game within a week or 2 getting the muscle memory down. So if it was how u suggest everyone would only play the comparatively complex to play builds and wreck the few who don't, and be forced to play a class they dislike to be competitive. If we're talking about classes that took yrs to learn properly and were high risk than maybe, doesn't really work for video game balance tho in the end.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Dickinson.7368]

2 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Because the max skill cap mechanically are overall low for gw2. I'm sry but most people minus any physical limitations can easily learn any class and any rotation in this game within a week or 2 getting the muscle memory down. So if it was how u suggest everyone would only play the comparatively complex to play builds and wreck the few who don't, and be forced to play a class they dislike to be competitive. If we're talking about classes that took yrs to learn properly and were high risk than maybe, doesn't really work for video game balance tho in the end.

I politely disagree, you make a point about GW2 being braindead when it comes to overall difficulty, i give you that.
But why would anyone play for example, heal Herald/Tempest when they can play Guardian which not only un-killable but (i think we can all agree on this at least) the easiest class in the game by a longshot to boot.
Same goes for lets say Holo & grenade scrapper.

[zyra.7860]

>condi berserker

>vindicator

[Psycoprophet.8107]

18 minutes ago, Dickinson.7368 said:

I politely disagree, you make a point about GW2 being braindead when it comes to overall difficulty, i give you that.
But why would anyone play for example, heal Herald/Tempest when they can play Guardian which not only un-killable but (i think we can all agree on this at least) the easiest class in the game by a longshot to boot.
Same goes for lets say Holo & grenade scrapper.

Well I can't speak for everyone but I'm sure I'm not alone in this but I mainly play ranger with a bit of thief because I love the ranger theme/archetype and ambush playstyle. How hard a class is to play is very low on my reasoning to choose a class because I can mechanically learn any of them rather quickly cuz the combat, amount of skills available and keybinds needed arnt that big of a hurtle for someone who's played the game for years which is very common for a mmo player. Should I be at a disadvantage because I happen to to enjoy the theme/archetype of a easier class or be at a advantage because those preferences ended up having me on a more complex class comparatively? If more complex classes/specs led players to have a automatic advantage over those players who choose thier class based off enjoyment of playstyle and theme is that fair? Lastly if what u wanted wete to happen 90% of players would bandwagon to the few more complex classes to gain the automatic advantage which would be disastrous for the game over time imo.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107