Why is virt the only EOD elite spec with tradeoffs?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Thread name.

Virtuoso gives up IP. Is not like virt is worth a kitten anyway but makes no sense to give up a baseline mechanic.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Thread name.

Virtuoso gives up IP. Is not like virt is worth a kitten anyway but makes no sense to give up a baseline mechanic.

...wut?

So, I had to think for a bit to even understand what you're trying to say and I think I do. Are you upset that you traded clones for daggers? Because...you kinda didn't.

Alright, let's dispel the magic. Let's peel back the curtain and look at the mesmer from a purely mechanical, purely programming view. Base mesmer on scepter 3 or several other skills creates an object. We call this a clone. Object copy appearance and weapon, set power to 1, use attack 1. Okay, that's a clone. The real use of a clone is the shatter. Create three objects, then you can deal damage with objects, or conditions with objects, or whatever. That's base mesmer.

Then there's Virtuoso. So naturally the virt creates an object. Object cap raised from 3 to 5. This time it's shaped like a dagger but functionally it's no different than a clone except it doesn't attack for zero damage and it can't be attacked. It also doesn't disappear without a target. But the mechanics are the same. The skin is different but bladesongs are just shatters with a new coat of paint.

If you strip it down, Virtuoso is just a mesmer pidgeonholed into a shatter build since it's illusions can't operate alone. They're only there to be shattered. Once you understand that the virtuoso becomes much easier to understand overall. Whether you go full power DPS or Condi DPS (with Bleed now instead of confusion or torment) it's still just a shatter build. Use bladesongs, refill, use more bladesongs, and fill in the gaps with whatever you like. It's really not that different or unique if you unwrap it. Kinda...boring actually. Remember, GW1 had Secondary Professions. We have specs that do the same thing:

Chronomancer: Mesmer/Necromancer

Mirage: Mesmer/Thief

Virtuoso: Mesmer/Warrior

So go warrior it up. Hit them hard, then hit them again.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Bladesworn gives up weapon specific bursts and weapon swap, harbinger loses shroud HP, specter IIRC has less initiative, Willbender doesn't get the virtue passives, mechanist gives up toolbelt skills, just off the top of my head. So the thread title is pretty provably false? 

[Zyreva.1078]

28 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

So, I had to think for a bit to even understand what you're trying to say and I think I do. Are you upset that you traded clones for daggers? Because...you kinda didn't.

I think the thread is about virt not being able to use shatters without clones/blades - which used to require a trait called "Illusionary Persona" but was made baseline eventually (for clone based mesmer specs anyway).

Is it a trade off? Yes. Cast time on blade songs as opposed to instant shatters is also a trade off of some sorts. Shocking right? Is virt the only EOD spec with trade offs tho? No.

So to answer the question in the title "Why is virt the only EOD elite spec with tradeoffs?" - It's not.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[ShadowKatt.6740]

16 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Bladesworn gives up weapon specific bursts and weapon swap, harbinger loses shroud HP, specter IIRC has less initiative, Willbender doesn't get the virtue passives, mechanist gives up toolbelt skills, just off the top of my head. So the thread title is pretty provably false? 

Bladesworn doesn't give up bursts though. THey're just called Dragon Trigger now (I was tinkering with mine last night). Bladesworn are now Warrior/Necromancers (Gunblade thing is basically the same as Death Shroud) and their burst skill is locked behind that new gunblade mechanic. Normal Warrior - Build Adrenaline and burst, Bladesworn - Equip gunblade, build Flow and Burst. It hasn't gone anywhere.

Not sure about the rest of them though. Mechanist does give up toolbelt skills though, but that's because they picked up a pet from the Ranger profession. So it's -kinda- like the mesmer and virtuoso. We traded Shatters for Bladesongs (which are basically the same thing), they traded tool belt skills for pet skills.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

23 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I think the thread is about virt not being able to use shatters without clones/blades - which used to require a trait called "Illusionary Persona" but was made baseline eventually (for clone based mesmer specs anyway).

Is it a trade off? Yes. Cast time on blade songs as opposed to instant shatters is also a trade off of some sorts. Shocking right? Is virt the only EOD spec with trade offs tho? No.

So to answer the question in the title "Why is virt the only EOD elite spec with tradeoffs?" - It's not.

I was going to say that you can't shatter without clones though, obviously. I forgot that shatters also proc off yourself as well as your clones since...well honestly why does it matter? If your target is OVER THERE then you're not hurting them with your own shatter anyway. And mesmers shouldn't be that close in the first place.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

13 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I was going to say that you can't shatter without clones though, obviously. I forgot that shatters also proc off yourself as well as your clones since...well honestly why does it matter? If your target is OVER THERE then you're not hurting them with your own shatter anyway. And mesmers shouldn't be that close in the first place.

This is about illusionary persona, yeah.

It does matter. F3 is already one of the most worthless garbage on game but not being able to do it without blades makes it even worse. No distortion without blades is pure retardness tho.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

41 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I think the thread is about virt not being able to use shatters without clones/blades - which used to require a trait called "Illusionary Persona" but was made baseline eventually (for clone based mesmer specs anyway).

Is it a trade off? Yes. Cast time on blade songs as opposed to instant shatters is also a trade off of some sorts. Shocking right? Is virt the only EOD spec with trade offs tho? No.

So to answer the question in the title "Why is virt the only EOD elite spec with tradeoffs?" - It's not.

Yeah it is. Tell me another elite spec that lost something baseline.

[Teknomancer.4895]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Chronomancer: Mesmer/Necromancer

I kind of see where this is coming from because of the wells, but honestly I've always considered Chrono to be ANet's way of restoring the OG Mesmer's Fast Casting attribute.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

9 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

This is about illusionary persona, yeah.

It does matter. F3 is already one of the most worthless garbage on game but not being able to do it without blades makes it even worse. No distortion without blades is pure retardness tho.

Okay! Now I better understand what the whole point of this thread is....that is not a good thing (for you).
 

So I actually had to go back and look at the bladesongs because, well, you're right that everything after F2 is basically pointless. Never used 3, or 4, or....well, Bladeturn Requiem is fun vs Pocket Raptors, so that one has meme potential. But I had to look up F4, Bladesong Distortion.

So as I understand it effects can stack in two ways, either in Intensity or Duration. Might gives you a percentage increase; further might increases that percentage. Swiftness gives a flat speed boost; further swiftness makes the duration longer. Distortion is a flat effect. You're immune to everything, you can't be extra immune to something. So even though it's NOT listed on the Effect Stacking page and seemingly just doesn't exist, lets assume that it just stacks in duration. So IF we counted ourselves as an illusion and had five daggers stocked and ready to go, F4 gives 3/4 of a second distortion for each one. Counting ourselves + five daggers would be 3/4 x 6 and that would come out to 4 1/2 seconds of absolute immunity. That's actually really good and you may have just renewed my interest in using it now. But lets forget that and go back to your complaint: That you can't use it with no daggers stocked. While this is true even if you could that means that you would get distortion for a whopping 3/4 of a second. So I looked up all the other skills that gave Distortion. Blade Renewal lasts for a flat 2 seconds. Distortion lasts for 1 second for each of your illusions, counting yourself since Illusionary Persona is now built in. And, uh...that's IT. There are a whole THREE skills that give distortion (Blur is similar and even that is just ONE more skill) and Bladesong Distortion is the only one less than a second. So if you could do it, what does your 3/4 of a second get you? I suppose if you're a quick reaction you could use it as a block, maybe buy yourself an extra 3/4 of a second if you're standing in the middle of a zerg vs zerg in WvW, but you're really splitting hairs here.

Then there's the Virtuoso itself. They use blades to do their songs. If we count yourself for the F4, what do we do with the others? F1 and 2 aren't going to fling an extra dagger out of nowhere. F3 still isn't going to get used for anything and Requiem is still a meme. So while I get now what and why you're complaining about this, it is a complete non-issue except in the most outstanding of situations and honestly, maybe not even then.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

5 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

I kind of see where this is coming from because of the wells, but honestly I've always considered Chrono to be ANet's way of restoring the OG Mesmer's Fast Casting attribute.

Nope, you nailed it. It just kinda occured to me one day that the vast majority (not all, not all) of the specs are just secondary professions. or rather, mechanics from other professions ripped out and added to new professions. To give a non-exhaustive list, how about a few examples aside from the mesmer which I've already done.

Druid: Ranger/Necromancer - Druid form is basically just Death Shroud
Scrapper: Engineer/Necromancer - Again, wells.
Scourge: Necromancer/Mesmer - Sand shades are basically clones. They even shatter (Kinda)
Dragonhunters: Guardian/Rangers - They get traps. No one uses them.
Daredevil: Thief/Warrior - They get Physical-Physical. They wanna get Physicaaaaaaaal
 

And there are others. Some are more unique than others. Virtuoso is more of a warrior kinda build but only in that it's all offense and very little defense. Most of the Elementalist kit is unique but that's because Ele stuff does not mesh well with the rest of the game. And Revenants don't even get options. You pick your favorite historical figure and Anet tells you how to play. But you get the idea. Most of the specs in the game amount to "What does another profession do that this one doesn't? Let's take some of that and add it to this one." So in other words: Secondary Profession. Just like in the Good ol' days.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Okay! Now I better understand what the whole point of this thread is....that is not a good thing (for you).
 

So I actually had to go back and look at the bladesongs because, well, you're right that everything after F2 is basically pointless. Never used 3, or 4, or....well, Bladeturn Requiem is fun vs Pocket Raptors, so that one has meme potential. But I had to look up F4, Bladesong Distortion.

So as I understand it effects can stack in two ways, either in Intensity or Duration. Might gives you a percentage increase; further might increases that percentage. Swiftness gives a flat speed boost; further swiftness makes the duration longer. Distortion is a flat effect. You're immune to everything, you can't be extra immune to something. So even though it's NOT listed on the Effect Stacking page and seemingly just doesn't exist, lets assume that it just stacks in duration. So IF we counted ourselves as an illusion and had five daggers stocked and ready to go, F4 gives 3/4 of a second distortion for each one. Counting ourselves + five daggers would be 3/4 x 6 and that would come out to 4 1/2 seconds of absolute immunity. That's actually really good and you may have just renewed my interest in using it now. But lets forget that and go back to your complaint: That you can't use it with no daggers stocked. While this is true even if you could that means that you would get distortion for a whopping 3/4 of a second. So I looked up all the other skills that gave Distortion. Blade Renewal lasts for a flat 2 seconds. Distortion lasts for 1 second for each of your illusions, counting yourself since Illusionary Persona is now built in. And, uh...that's IT. There are a whole THREE skills that give distortion (Blur is similar and even that is just ONE more skill) and Bladesong Distortion is the only one less than a second. So if you could do it, what does your 3/4 of a second get you? I suppose if you're a quick reaction you could use it as a block, maybe buy yourself an extra 3/4 of a second if you're standing in the middle of a zerg vs zerg in WvW, but you're really splitting hairs here.

Then there's the Virtuoso itself. They use blades to do their songs. If we count yourself for the F4, what do we do with the others? F1 and 2 aren't going to fling an extra dagger out of nowhere. F3 still isn't going to get used for anything and Requiem is still a meme. So while I get now what and why you're complaining about this, it is a complete non-issue except in the most outstanding of situations and honestly, maybe not even then.

Why the heck are you even comparing BR with distortion.

It would make sense if BR was also a stunbreaker, but it isn't. 

Distortion is more often then not knowing a burst is coming and you have no other means of avoiding it, ie you're stunned.

Distortion without IP means you'll eat the burst if you're without blades.

You don't preemptively use distortion based on the number of clones/blades, you use it because you need to or should, otherwise you're using it for the sake of using it.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

2 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Why the heck are you even comparing BR with distortion.

Okay, I see that I have to spell things out clearly for you. That was my bad.

THERE ARE ONLY THREE SKILLS THAT GIVE DISTORTION AT ALL. BR, and I assume you mean Blade Renewal and not Bladeturn Requiem(Don't abbreviate things) gives distortion for TWO seconds. Shatter Distortion gives distortion for ONE second (per #s of you). And then there's yours which doesn't even give distortion for a single second. One of these things is not like the others.

I feel like part of your problem is you don't understand the mesmer as a profession. We are the dueling class. It even says so right at the top of the forums. As such Distortion isn't supposed to be your "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. If that's what you want, you want THIS:
 

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/79/Mesmer_icon_small.png  Decoy — Clone
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/79/Mesmer_icon_small.png  Mirror Images — Clone
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/79/Mesmer_icon_small.png  Blink — Manipulation
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/79/Mesmer_icon_small.png  Power Break
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/79/Mesmer_icon_small.png  Signet of Midnight — Signet
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/e/e0/Chronomancer_icon_small.png  Well of Precognition — Well
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/c/c8/Mirage_icon_small.png  Sand through Glass — Deception
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/77/Virtuoso_icon_small.png  Psychic Force — Psionic

Distortion is NOT that. Distortion is supposed to be similar to a block. You distort and let your opponent attack, and then you can respond to them. We are a DUELING class. So yes, you actually ARE meant wait until you have a full stock of clones or blades to use it for the greatest effect, just like a warrior or guardian would keep their shield block available for when they need it. And as a further point, None of the distortion skills break stun. The Shatter Distortion you can use while stunned but it doesn't break you out, it just means that the following strike doesn't hit you. It seems to me that you want Distortion and the Distortion skills to be something they're not. Which isn't a bad thing. Lots of people wish there were changes in the game. But I think your premise is flawed.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

29 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Okay, I see that I have to spell things out clearly for you. That was my bad.

THERE ARE ONLY THREE SKILLS THAT GIVE DISTORTION AT ALL. BR, and I assume you mean Blade Renewal and not Bladeturn Requiem(Don't abbreviate things) gives distortion for TWO seconds. Shatter Distortion gives distortion for ONE second (per #s of you). And then there's yours which doesn't even give distortion for a single second. One of these things is not like the others.

I feel like part of your problem is you don't understand the mesmer as a profession. We are the dueling class. It even says so right at the top of the forums. As such Distortion isn't supposed to be your "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. If that's what you want, you want THIS:
 

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/79/Mesmer_icon_small.png  Decoy — Clone
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/79/Mesmer_icon_small.png  Mirror Images — Clone
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/79/Mesmer_icon_small.png  Blink — Manipulation
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/79/Mesmer_icon_small.png  Power Break
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/79/Mesmer_icon_small.png  Signet of Midnight — Signet
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/e/e0/Chronomancer_icon_small.png  Well of Precognition — Well
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/c/c8/Mirage_icon_small.png  Sand through Glass — Deception
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/77/Virtuoso_icon_small.png  Psychic Force — Psionic

Distortion is NOT that. Distortion is supposed to be similar to a block. You distort and let your opponent attack, and then you can respond to them. We are a DUELING class. So yes, you actually ARE meant wait until you have a full stock of clones or blades to use it for the greatest effect, just like a warrior or guardian would keep their shield block available for when they need it. And as a further point, None of the distortion skills break stun. The Shatter Distortion you can use while stunned but it doesn't break you out, it just means that the following strike doesn't hit you. It seems to me that you want Distortion and the Distortion skills to be something they're not. Which isn't a bad thing. Lots of people wish there were changes in the game. But I think your premise is flawed.

You don't have to spell things for me, you have to actually learn to PvP.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 minute ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You don't have to spell things for me, you have to actually learn to PvP.

Ah, what was foggy is now clear. I who was blind can now see (that's a lie, I'm actually very blind. it's actually a problem).

Now you have me at a bit of a disadvantage. I don't PvP. I'm not gonna PvP. I don't care about PvP. I'm a casual PvE purrson and so when I look at these things I observe them from a mechanical perspective, a thematic perspective, a lore perspective, and I try to find a balance between them. And now that I know you're talking about PvP I have to re-evaluate the whole thread. Now it doesn't sound like you don't understand the virtuoso. It doesn't come off as you have a flawed premise....well, it does but not in that way. Now it sounds like you're upset because there's a skill that just doesn't work the way you want it to and it means you can't use it against other people. And like that you've lost me. I'm afraid my well of pity dries out at the idea of things not being fair in PvP or the way you'd like them to be. So I'll be leaving this thread now. Good luck to you in your campaign for....whatever it is that you actually want, I don't know anymore.

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Yeah it is. Tell me another elite spec that lost something baseline.

Examples have already been mentioned:

3 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Bladesworn gives up weapon specific bursts and weapon swap, harbinger loses shroud HP, specter IIRC has less initiative, Willbender doesn't get the virtue passives, mechanist gives up toolbelt skills, just off the top of my head. So the thread title is pretty provably false? 

Specter also loses stolen skills, to add another case of an elite spec losing access to one of its base mechanics.

Elite specs are supposed to alter a classes' class mechanic and it's not uncommon for that altered mechanic to work differently from the original one - as it is the case with virt. Ofc there are also elite specs that simply add something on top instead of altering the original mechanic, but even then those specs aren't generally stronger than other's, so i don't see this as an issue. The only outlier when it comes to trade offs is imo specter, because the initiative reduction is one of those "artificial" trade offs they wanted to get rid off.

Virt might not be the strongest PvP spec right now, but i don't think it's primarily the lack of IP that's holding it back (and in PvE it has been one of the srongest specs since EOD release, so it's not like the specis trash in general).

[Roadkizzle.2157]

4 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

 

Chronomancer: Mesmer/Necromancer

Not too get too of topic... Other people have listed other EoD specs that give up baseline abilities.

 

But I think of Chronomancer more as a Mesmer/Guardian then a Necromancer. What does the Chronomancer have at all that resembles the Necromancer? The only thing I can think of is Wells. But other then the name they just as much resemble the Guardians Consecration skill line.

Mirages do seem like the more stealthy subterfuge Mesmer spec so I can see that and the Virtuoso is the most straight forward leading to the most martial play style so I can see Warrior.

But Chronomancer has no feel of any Necromancer. It just has Wells which are mechanically any AOE field like the Guardians Consecrations.

[draxynnic.3719]

Oooh, are we playing the 'virtuoso sucks and anyone who disagrees with me isn't a real mesmer player' game again?

2 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Nope, you nailed it. It just kinda occured to me one day that the vast majority (not all, not all) of the specs are just secondary professions. or rather, mechanics from other professions ripped out and added to new professions. To give a non-exhaustive list, how about a few examples aside from the mesmer which I've already done.

Druid: Ranger/Necromancer - Druid form is basically just Death Shroud
Scrapper: Engineer/Necromancer - Again, wells.
Scourge: Necromancer/Mesmer - Sand shades are basically clones. They even shatter (Kinda)
Dragonhunters: Guardian/Rangers - They get traps. No one uses them.
Daredevil: Thief/Warrior - They get Physical-Physical. They wanna get Physicaaaaaaaal
 

And there are others. Some are more unique than others. Virtuoso is more of a warrior kinda build but only in that it's all offense and very little defense. Most of the Elementalist kit is unique but that's because Ele stuff does not mesh well with the rest of the game. And Revenants don't even get options. You pick your favorite historical figure and Anet tells you how to play. But you get the idea. Most of the specs in the game amount to "What does another profession do that this one doesn't? Let's take some of that and add it to this one." So in other words: Secondary Profession. Just like in the Good ol' days.

I think they explicitly said it back when they first announced elite specialisations, although some are more obvious than others.

@Roadkizzle.2157 just sniped me - I was just about to express the opinion that chronomancer was more /guardian. While the concepts of 'consecrations' and 'symbols' are guardian-specific, wells perform a similar function of generating an AoE presence (something that core mesmer was very bad at). Chronomancer also has a strong focus on providing boons and being able to defend themselves and their allies while getting into close combat, which were primarily (but obviously not exclusively) guardian features in the base game. It's subtle since mesmer and guardian already had a lot of traits in common, but I think chrono does more to make mesmer guardian-like than like any other profession.

Virt is hard to pin down, but my gut feeling is that while the graphics are very different, it comes closest to making virtuoso behave like a classic elementalist with various forms of ranged AoE. I can also see how it can be viewed as being something of the opposite side of spellbreaker, but I can't really see a ranged-focused spec being the /W spec. (Yeah, I know that ele is currently very melee-oriented, but that's because every elite spec for ele has been 'let's turn the ranged nuker into a melee character!')

[Teknomancer.4895]

7 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Secondary Profession. Just like in the Good ol' days.

With the minor detail that in GW1, you could at least choose which one you wanted to nerf yourself with. 😆

[ShadowKatt.6740]

20 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

With the minor detail that in GW1, you could at least choose which one you wanted to nerf yourself with. 😆

Actually, I ran a straight mesmer. I only took monk for the reusable rez. Other than that, straight Domination. Empathy, Backfire, Energy Burn, Energy Surge, Chaos Storm, Two slots for snacks and what have you, and Rebirth.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

15 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Examples have already been mentioned:

Specter also loses stolen skills, to add another case of an elite spec losing access to one of its base mechanics.

Elite specs are supposed to alter a classes' class mechanic and it's not uncommon for that altered mechanic to work differently from the original one - as it is the case with virt. Ofc there are also elite specs that simply add something on top instead of altering the original mechanic, but even then those specs aren't generally stronger than other's, so i don't see this as an issue. The only outlier when it comes to trade offs is imo specter, because the initiative reduction is one of those "artificial" trade offs they wanted to get rid off.

Virt might not be the strongest PvP spec right now, but i don't think it's primarily the lack of IP that's holding it back (and in PvE it has been one of the srongest specs since EOD release, so it's not like the specis trash in general).

Specter loses stealing skills but gets shroud.

Bladesworn doesn't really lose anything, dragon trigger is burst and bladefun is the second weapon skill.

Mechanist loses belt skills but gets mech skills.

Virt loses IP but gets? Worse shatters?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

15 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Ah, what was foggy is now clear. I who was blind can now see (that's a lie, I'm actually very blind. it's actually a problem).

Now you have me at a bit of a disadvantage. I don't PvP. I'm not gonna PvP. I don't care about PvP. I'm a casual PvE purrson and so when I look at these things I observe them from a mechanical perspective, a thematic perspective, a lore perspective, and I try to find a balance between them. And now that I know you're talking about PvP I have to re-evaluate the whole thread. Now it doesn't sound like you don't understand the virtuoso. It doesn't come off as you have a flawed premise....well, it does but not in that way. Now it sounds like you're upset because there's a skill that just doesn't work the way you want it to and it means you can't use it against other people. And like that you've lost me. I'm afraid my well of pity dries out at the idea of things not being fair in PvP or the way you'd like them to be. So I'll be leaving this thread now. Good luck to you in your campaign for....whatever it is that you actually want, I don't know anymore.

Virt is trash but this is a fact since the spec was announced.

All projectile spec, every shatter is worse than core except f2 if you play condi.

BR is the only good utility. Elite is unusable.

The point here is Virt gives up IP for what?

[zeyeti.8347]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt is trash "in pvp" but this is a fact since the spec was announced.

Not all specs are viable in this or this mode , virt is kinda a monster in pve , long range , pretty easy condi , lots off cc , very sustainable with 3% condi vampirism and distorsion.

I do not pvp too , but i kind of know i wouldn't play virt if i wanted to play pvp , but the same goes for other specs in pve and in wvw .

Starting with the pvp statement  would have saved a lot of time to ppl arguing and not understanding why you think it sucks , i too was confused when i read your first post , think no one will state that virt. is bad in pve.

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

31 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Not all specs are viable in this or this mode , virt is kinda a monster in pve , long range , pretty easy condi , lots off cc , very sustainable with 3% condi vampirism and distorsion.

I do not pvp too , but i kind of know i wouldn't play virt if i wanted to play pvp , but the same goes for other specs in pve and in wvw .

Starting with the pvp statement  would have saved a lot of time to ppl arguing and not understanding why you think it sucks , i too was confused when i read your first post , think no one will state that virt. is bad in pve.

 

Everything works on pve, does Virt do more dps than other specs? Dunno, don't give a rat's kitten about pve, but it's way easier to make something work on pve than in competitive game modes.

This was also debated when Virt was announced, you should design a spec for competitive and then balance for pve, and not the way around. For pve numbers can make something viable, for PvP/wvw not that much.

But yeah should have stated this is with competitive in mind, tho the fact that IP was lost and nothing gained in return still remains true in pve.

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Specter loses stealing skills but gets shroud.

Bladesworn doesn't really lose anything, dragon trigger is burst and bladefun is the second weapon skill.

Mechanist loses belt skills but gets mech skills.

Virt loses IP but gets? Worse shatters?

You lose clones, but get daggers that can't be cleaved 😮 I'm sure this doesn't count because you said so or something -similarly like you just did with people listing what other specs lost. If you don't like what virtuoso does, play other especs or core. Super simple stuff.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Sobx.1758